How should Catholics treat and view Muslims?

[Trebor135]

I say we change there culture,

How do you suggest we go about this task?

the same way our culture is changing.

Isn’t our culture changing in negative ways? (The trend started decades ago and it’s only been getting worse since then.)

We need to treat them with LOVE and respect.

To finally answer the OP’s question: I agree.

 

[Robert_Sock]

How do you suggest we go about this task?

Isn’t our culture changing in negative ways? (The trend started decades ago and it’s only been getting worse since then.)

To finally answer the OP’s question: I agree.

I believe that the wars in the Middle East is really a change in culture, which certain Islamics are strongly resisting.

Yes, many of the CURRENT changes in our culture are negative, which I think is understandable given the chaos in our rapidly changing world. But I personally believe that the tide will eventually change, and our culture will be governed by religious morals.

Just look at how our world has changed over the 150 years, and see the chaos that is accompanying it!

 

[LisaA]

What do you propose we do with the vast number of Islamic people living in the world? Death camps?

I say we change there culture, the same way our culture is changing. We need to treat them with LOVE and respect.

Oh come on Robert, quit setting up the strawmen, too easy to set ablaze and you are usually more thoughtful.

First Muslims are like other groups, self reporting. I can’t walk down the street and determine who is Muslim, unless it’s a woman in a headscarf and even then, it’s not a sure sign. If I meet someone in a work (I told you I worked for a Muslim doctor and dealt with many others) or a social setting (there are Muslims at my health club) I am no more or no less open and charitable.

As I stated, ISLAMISTS are a different group. If I somehow encounter a self described Muslim who is spouting hatred, engaging in violence or planning violence, you bet your life I will contact authorities. Also as I said, our society has become TOO P.C. and thus we IGNORED hateful Islamists like Nadal Hassan, the Boston Bombers (although we had DIRECT WARNING), and others. People suffered and died for the god of Political Correctness.

I believe we are to speak the truth. Islamists have a radical and violent philosophy. Pretending that all Muslims are believers in the “religion of peace” is just a display of ignorance that might prove fatal. Just ask the poor soldier hacked to death a couple weeks ago on a London street. Those evil men didn’t just wake up and decide to do this. They had exhibited radical behavior in the past. They should have been watched and stopped just as Nadal Hassan should have been stopped.

And if you are going to simply try to derail your own thread with strawmen, I won’t bite again.

Lisa

 

[JamesCaruso]

James I realize this was tongue in cheek to some extent but the reality is that Islamists do self identify to a great extent. Muslims, not so much. You can even look to the Boston Bombers’ family. The mom was first shown in western dress, hair done, make up and out in public. Then the family changed and became very Islamic, railing against the country that gave them shelter, the sons affiliating and watching Islamist videos, the older brother going to Chechnya.

Let’s wave a red flag here? This couldn’t have been more obvious. We had a situation in this city where a young married man suddenly had his wife wearing full cover, he grew a long beard, began complaining about his co-workers and their ways. When he was arrested for plotting a terror attack his co workers were SURE he was innocent…but he wasn’t and he’s now in prison. Ditto with a man who worked for our mayor…very open about his conversion to Islam, vocal about his criticism of western ways. He was found to be plotting to bomb a Jewish school.

Now if I see a bearded man followed by a woman in a hijab pushing a baby stroller, I don’t recoil in horror. But when you see big changes in behavior, in associations, in communications…wake up and smell the dynamite. It’s just foolish to presume that Islamists are like you and me, just misunderstood. They are not. I am frankly tired of our “tolerance” that has gotten people killed. These guys are not hiding in the shadows. In virtually every case of homegrown or imported terrorists Islamists, people knew what they were doing.

Lisa

Muslims, in the broad sense of the word, are more likely to be involved in terrorism than non-Muslims. So, too, poor Americans are more likely to be involved in violent crime than wealthier American citizens. As you say, unless you know the particular person and can thereby observe changes in their behavior over time, you really have no way to tell who is likely to be an “Islamist,” as you call them, or is simply an ordinary Muslim. It is the same for poor American citizens.

Is a Muslim who is outspoken against the policies of the United States more likely to be a terrorist than a Muslim who is not outspoken? Ia a poor American citizen who is outspoken against US law enforcement may be more likely to be involved in violent crime?

Are we taking into account those who don’t particularly want to be caught and therefore tend to be more laid back in public so as not to tip their hand?

All in all, from what you’ve said, we have no basis for fearing Muslims unless they are radical in their behavior or speech, just as we have no reason for fearing poor American citizens unless they are radical in their behavior or speech. Just being against US policy in the Middle East is not reasonable grounds for paranoia, nor is being against US law enforcement policy.

Now I’ll give you a case close to my heart. My goddaughter niece who was raised in a very Catholic family, both parents well educated and seriously practicing their Catholic faith, became a Muslim. She wears the full Burka getup, although her face is uncovered. My brother tells me she is more religious in her behavior and observances than her born-Muslim husband. She is quiet and demure. I hope the fact of her burka does not produce fear in others of either her or her husband. I think that would be totally unfair to her for simply embracing a religion that is foreign to most of us.

 

[Trebor135]

Now I’ll give you a case close to my heart. My goddaughter niece who was raised in a very Catholic family, both parents well educated and seriously practicing their Catholic faith, became a Muslim. She wears the full Burka getup, although her face is uncovered. My brother tells me she is more religious in her behavior and observances than her born-Muslim husband. She is quiet and demure. I hope the fact of her burka does not produce fear in others of either her or her husband. I think that would be totally unfair to her for simply embracing a religion that is foreign to most of us.

If I may ask, what led your goddaughter to become Muslim? (If you’d prefer to PM me, feel free to do so.)

 

[Robert_Sock]

Oh come on Robert, quit setting up the strawmen, too easy to set ablaze and you are usually more thoughtful.

First Muslims are like other groups, self reporting. I can’t walk down the street and determine who is Muslim, unless it’s a woman in a headscarf and even then, it’s not a sure sign. If I meet someone in a work (I told you I worked for a Muslim doctor and dealt with many others) or a social setting (there are Muslims at my health club) I am no more or no less open and charitable.

As I stated, ISLAMISTS are a different group. If I somehow encounter a self described Muslim who is spouting hatred, engaging in violence or planning violence, you bet your life I will contact authorities. Also as I said, our society has become TOO P.C. and thus we IGNORED hateful Islamists like Nadal Hassan, the Boston Bombers (although we had DIRECT WARNING), and others. People suffered and died for the god of Political Correctness.

I believe we are to speak the truth. Islamists have a radical and violent philosophy. Pretending that all Muslims are believers in the “religion of peace” is just a display of ignorance that might prove fatal. Just ask the poor soldier hacked to death a couple weeks ago on a London street. Those evil men didn’t just wake up and decide to do this. They had exhibited radical behavior in the past. They should have been watched and stopped just as Nadal Hassan should have been stopped.

And if you are going to simply try to derail your own thread with strawmen, I won’t bite again.

Lisa

My apologies if I insulted you! I really didn’t mean to. But I really want to know how you propose to deal with all the “EVIL EVIL EVIL” Islamics in the world. You have primarily avoided my question by saying that my question is akin to building strawmen. How so?

 

[LisaA]

Muslims, in the broad sense of the word, are more likely to be involved in terrorism than non-Muslims. So, too, poor Americans are more likely to be involved in violent crime than wealthier American citizens. As you say, unless you know the particular person and can thereby observe changes in their behavior over time, you really have no way to tell who is likely to be an “Islamist,” as you call them, or is simply an ordinary Muslim. It is the same for poor American citizens.

Is a Muslim who is outspoken against the policies of the United States more likely to be a terrorist than a Muslim who is not outspoken? Ia a poor American citizen who is outspoken against US law enforcement may be more likely to be involved in violent crime?

Are we taking into account those who don’t particularly want to be caught and therefore tend to be more laid back in public so as not to tip their hand?

All in all, from what you’ve said, we have no basis for fearing Muslims unless they are radical in their behavior or speech, just as we have no reason for fearing poor American citizens unless they are radical in their behavior or speech. Just being against US policy in the Middle East is not reasonable grounds for paranoia, nor is being against US law enforcement policy.

Now I’ll give you a case close to my heart. My goddaughter niece who was raised in a very Catholic family, both parents well educated and seriously practicing their Catholic faith, became a Muslim. She wears the full Burka getup, although her face is uncovered. My brother tells me she is more religious in her behavior and observances than her born-Muslim husband. She is quiet and demure. I hope the fact of her burka does not produce fear in others of either her or her husband. I think that would be totally unfair to her for simply embracing a religion that is foreign to most of us.

Violence IS tied to Islam. Although the majority of Muslims are peaceful, even if 10% (not 1%) are radicalized that is a LOT of potential for violence. Every serious military conflict and terrorist acts in the world at this time has Islam as a factor in the violence. Those are facts.

Violence is NOT directly correlated with poverty. That is an unfortunate stereotype that is not supported by facts. Violence is a result of depravity, and lack of good character. Go into the slums of India or Haiti and tell me there is a lot of violent conflict? Violence in America is not a result of poverty so much as fatherless homes and the drug culture. Poor people are not inherently violent.

As to your grandniece, as a person I would not carry any ill will but if she appeared on an American street in a burka, I would feel great pity for her.

Lisa

 

[Robert_Sock]

[snip]As to your grandniece, as a person I would not carry any ill will but if she appeared on an American street in a burka, I would feel great pity for her.

Lisa

Just wait 50 years or so when Islamics, with their women in burkas, become stanch allies of the Catholic Church. Remember, the British, Germany, and Japan were our stanch enemies when we were at war with them, but are now our stanch allies. These aspects of our national history are bound to repeat itself with the Islamic nations.

 

[LisaA]

Just wait 50 years or so when Islamics become stanch allies of the Catholic Church. Remember, the British, Germany, and Japan were our stanch enemies when we were at war with them, but are now our stanch allies. These aspects of our national history are bound to repeat itself with the Islamic nations.

Right…btw we were at war with the Islamists during WWII with Hitler’s complicity with the Grand Mufti. It’s only because we defeated Hitler that the Islamists were not able to do more damage to the West. Here is an excerpt from a book on the subject:

**n 1941, Haj Amin al-Husseini fled to Germany and met with Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Joachim Von Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders. He wanted to persuade them to extend the Nazis’ anti-Jewish program to the Arab world.

The Mufti sent Hitler 15 drafts of declarations he wanted Germany and Italy to make concerning the Middle East. One called on the two countries to declare the illegality of the Jewish home in Palestine. Furthermore, “they accord to Palestine and to other Arab countries the right to solve the problem of the Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries, in accordance with the interest of the Arabs and, by the same method, that the question is now being settled in the Axis countries.”1

In November 1941, the Mufti met with Hitler, who told him the Jews were his foremost enemy. The Nazi dictator rebuffed the Mufti’s requests for a declaration in support of the Arabs, however, telling him the time was not right. The Mufti offered Hitler his “thanks for the sympathy which he had always shown for the Arab and especially Palestinian cause, and to which he had given clear expression in his public speeches…The Arabs were Germany’s natural friends because they had the same enemies as had Germany, namely…the Jews…” Hitler replied:

Germany stood for uncompromising war against the Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine…Germany would furnish positive and practical aid to the Arabs involved in the same struggle…Germany’s objective [is]…solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere…In that hour the Mufti would be the most authoritative spokesman for the Arab world. The Mufti thanked Hitler profusly**

Sorry Robert but Islam will NEVER ally itself with any Christian or Jewish country.

Lisa

 

[Robert_Sock]

Right…btw we were at war with the Islamists during WWII with Hitler’s complicity with the Grand Mufti. It’s only because we defeated Hitler that the Islamists were not able to do more damage to the West. Here is an excerpt from a book on the subject:

**n 1941, Haj Amin al-Husseini fled to Germany and met with Adolf Hitler, Heinrich Himmler, Joachim Von Ribbentrop and other Nazi leaders. He wanted to persuade them to extend the Nazis’ anti-Jewish program to the Arab world.

The Mufti sent Hitler 15 drafts of declarations he wanted Germany and Italy to make concerning the Middle East. One called on the two countries to declare the illegality of the Jewish home in Palestine. Furthermore, “they accord to Palestine and to other Arab countries the right to solve the problem of the Jewish elements in Palestine and other Arab countries, in accordance with the interest of the Arabs and, by the same method, that the question is now being settled in the Axis countries.”1

In November 1941, the Mufti met with Hitler, who told him the Jews were his foremost enemy. The Nazi dictator rebuffed the Mufti’s requests for a declaration in support of the Arabs, however, telling him the time was not right. The Mufti offered Hitler his “thanks for the sympathy which he had always shown for the Arab and especially Palestinian cause, and to which he had given clear expression in his public speeches…The Arabs were Germany’s natural friends because they had the same enemies as had Germany, namely…the Jews…” Hitler replied:

Germany stood for uncompromising war against the Jews. That naturally included active opposition to the Jewish national home in Palestine…Germany would furnish positive and practical aid to the Arabs involved in the same struggle…Germany’s objective [is]…solely the destruction of the Jewish element residing in the Arab sphere…In that hour the Mufti would be the most authoritative spokesman for the Arab world. The Mufti thanked Hitler profusly**

Sorry Robert but Islam will NEVER ally itself with any Christian or Jewish country.

Lisa

I disagree. It was not too long ago in Spain, just prior to the Inquisition, when Muslims, Catholics and Jews studied and lived together! This can happen again.

What about my key question in post #26?

 

[LisaA]

I disagree. It was not too long ago in Spain, just prior to the Inquisition, when Muslims, Catholics and Jews studied and lived together! This can happen again.

What about my key question in post #26?

I don’t think it was all sweetness and light in Spain. But that is in the past. As to your question, I think I’ve answered it.

Dealing with evil:

Acknowledge its existence
Watch for the signs of potential evil in public settings
Be politically active to the extent possible including contacting representatives, local authorities
Report suspicious activity–SPEAK UP
Learn to protect yourself and your family

Lisa

 

[JamesCaruso]

Violence IS tied to Islam. Although the majority of Muslims are peaceful, even if 10% (not 1%) are radicalized that is a LOT of potential for violence. Every serious military conflict and terrorist acts in the world at this time has Islam as a factor in the violence. Those are facts.

Violence is NOT directly correlated with poverty. That is an unfortunate stereotype that is not supported by facts. Violence is a result of depravity, and lack of good character. Go into the slums of India or Haiti and tell me there is a lot of violent conflict? Violence in America is not a result of poverty so much as fatherless homes and the drug culture. Poor people are not inherently violent.

As to your grandniece, as a person I would not carry any ill will but if she appeared on an American street in a burka, I would feel great pity for her.

Lisa

Speaking of violence

America is tied to violence. We began our existence with a violent revolution. We settled the attempt of certain states to withdraw from the union by the most deadly war in our history. We entered the wars is Korea, Vietnam and Iraq without any imminent threat to our homeland. I am especially focused on the Iraqi war, since I was first for it before I became against it. The cowboy justice mentality in this country is such that we are raised with a certain belief in violent response regardless of whether there is an element of self defense. People have no qualms about killing a fleeing robber to death; that is, the notion that protection of property interests equates to sufficient cause to kill (not always in law, but I suggest, generally, in public opinion), As a country we have no qualms about entering a war to get rid of a dictator we don’t like, or to make a better world. GWB, God bless him, still had that penchant for standing up to the bad guy with killing power, and not only in self defense.

The link between poverty and violent crime

economics.fundamentalfinance.com/povertycrime.php
…[Studies] found that homicides were disproportionately concentrated in areas of poverty. Three of these (by Bullock [1955], Beasley and Antunes [1974], and Mladenka and Hill [1976]) studied violent crime in Houston. Like Shaw and McKay [1969], each reported high correlations between violent crime rates and measures of poverty. Areas in Houston with high rates of violent crime were also characterized by high population density and a high proportion of black residents…

These studies as well as the above analysis show that poverty is correlated with violent crimes - increased poverty leads to increased violent crime. economics.fundamentalfinance.com/povertycrime.php

Muslim Niece

Don’t pity so much the person who leaves the Catholic Church for another faith but in agreement with their conscience so much as the Catholic who knows their faith, stays a Catholic, but goes their own way anyway. The 80% of Catholics who don’t go to Sunday Mass may be telling in this regard.

 

[Robert_Sock]

I don’t think it was all sweetness and light in Spain. But that is in the past. As to your question, I think I’ve answered it.

Dealing with evil:

Acknowledge its existence
Watch for the signs of potential evil in public settings
Be politically active to the extent possible including contacting representatives, local authorities
Report suspicious activity–SPEAK UP
Learn to protect yourself and your family

Lisa

The way you described Islamics as being so evil I thought for sure that you would have more specific public policies in mind. Do you think that we should reach out to Islamics with LOVE and respect, the way I do?

 

[LisaA]

Speaking of violence

America is tied to violence. We began our existence with a violent revolution. We settled the attempt of certain states to withdraw from the union by the most deadly war in our history. We entered the wars is Korea, Vietnam and Iraq without any imminent threat to our homeland. I am especially focused on the Iraqi war, since I was first for it before I became against it. The cowboy justice mentality in this country is such that we are raised with a certain belief in violent response regardless of whether there is an element of self defense. People have no qualms about killing a fleeing robber to death; that is, the notion that protection of property interests equates to sufficient cause to kill (not always in law, but I suggest, generally, in public opinion), As a country we have no qualms about entering a war to get rid of a dictator we don’t like, or to make a better world. GWB, God bless him, still had that penchant for standing up to the bad guy with killing power, and not only in self defense.

The link between poverty and violent crime

economics.fundamentalfinance.com/povertycrime.php
…[Studies] found that homicides were disproportionately concentrated in areas of poverty. Three of these (by Bullock [1955], Beasley and Antunes [1974], and Mladenka and Hill [1976]) studied violent crime in Houston. Like Shaw and McKay [1969], each reported high correlations between violent crime rates and measures of poverty. Areas in Houston with high rates of violent crime were also characterized by high population density and a high proportion of black residents…

These studies as well as the above analysis show that poverty is correlated with violent crimes - increased poverty leads to increased violent crime. economics.fundamentalfinance.com/povertycrime.php

Muslim Niece

Don’t pity so much the person who leaves the Catholic Church for another faith but in agreement with their conscience so much as the Catholic who knows their faith, stays a Catholic, but goes their own way anyway. The 80% of Catholics who don’t go to Sunday Mass may be telling in this regard.

Correlation is not causation. And your studies are ancient. I was in grade school when some of them were done and I’m pushing 60 at this point. Sorry that dog don’t hunt. Violent crime in this country is due to dysfunctional families and drugs for the most part. Are the families poor because they are dysfunctional or dysfunctional because they are poor? It’s not simply poverty. There has to be depravity and a lack of good character for there to be violence.

For quite a while the theory that Muslims are violent because they are poor canard was trotted out as an excuse for the inexcusable. However 9/11, Osama Bin Laden, and various other Al Qaeda leaders put that theory to rest.

As to your niece, I pity her because I don’t believe she would have converted if not for marrying a Muslim. I’m on the RCIA team and sadly I see a number of people converting ONLY because they are marrying a Catholic and feel pressure to do so. Sometimes they fall in love with the Church along the way but as I observe who is or is not at Mass, those whose hearts were on fire for the Church and not their spouse or intended spouse ARE there every week, participating and engaged in the Parish. Those who were “dragged” into the Church by a spouse or in laws haven’t been seen since the Easter Vigil. Further if your niece is in America, wearing the burka will make her an object of curiosity, animosity or pity. This is NOT a tradition in this country. In fact it’s not even an Islamic tradition, it’s an ARAB tradition that has migrated due to the power of the Saudi Oil money and influence.

Lisa

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hatred has a way of growing. Eventually, it’ll eat all the LOVE we once had. LOVE is the answer!

 

[meltzerboy]

Violence IS tied to Islam. Although the majority of Muslims are peaceful, even if 10% (not 1%) are radicalized that is a LOT of potential for violence. Every serious military conflict and terrorist acts in the world at this time has Islam as a factor in the violence. Those are facts.

Violence is NOT directly correlated with poverty. That is an unfortunate stereotype that is not supported by facts. Violence is a result of depravity, and lack of good character. Go into the slums of India or Haiti and tell me there is a lot of violent conflict? Violence in America is not a result of poverty so much as fatherless homes and the drug culture. Poor people are not inherently violent.

As to your grandniece, as a person I would not carry any ill will but if she appeared on an American street in a burka, I would feel great pity for her.

Lisa

Lisa, it depends on which American street she appeared. In NYC, for example, she wouldn’t even be of passing interest. The larger question, I suppose, is what does that say about freedom in America, when a person’s attire–not behavior–makes her an item of curiosity, ridicule, or scorn?

 

[LisaA]

Lisa, it depends on which American street she appeared. In NYC, for example, she wouldn’t even be of passing interest. The larger question, I suppose, is what does that say about freedom in America, when a person’s attire–not behavior–makes her an item of curiosity, ridicule, or scorn?

We judge all of the time. I see a guy coming my way and he’s got tattooed everything, spikes and piercings everywhere. Sorry but I have an immediate and negative view. I see a young woman walking down the street with her boobs halfway out of her too tight top, a short skirt and six inch heels and I think…YUCK! I pity her as well. I also frankly have a very negative view of a woman in a burka. It’s like looking at a slave in chains. My personal bias I guess. BTW I do not mean a hijab, I mean full cover which is rare even on the streets of Muslim countries. When I was in Egypt our guide explained that if you see a burka, it’s very unlikely to be a native Egyptian as that is not the custom there (yet…I suspect the MB will push for it )

I think it’s unrealistic to pretend that appearance doesn’t register a reaction. Maybe not so much in NYC but in most of America, something really off the reservation will elicit a reaction. In our city we have the phenomenon of aging male “hippies” with bald pates, scraggy ponytails and Birkenstocks…with socks of course as it’s usually cold here. Can’t say it astonishes me but I don’t get a positive feeling from that look either. I’m sure the same guy walking on the streets of Bogart, Georgia would get stares.

Lisa

 

[meltzerboy]

We judge all of the time. I see a guy coming my way and he’s got tattooed everything, spikes and piercings everywhere. Sorry but I have an immediate and negative view. I see a young woman walking down the street with her boobs halfway out of her too tight top, a short skirt and six inch heels and I think…YUCK! I pity her as well. I also frankly have a very negative view of a woman in a burka. It’s like looking at a slave in chains. My personal bias I guess. BTW I do not mean a hijab, I mean full cover which is rare even on the streets of Muslim countries. When I was in Egypt our guide explained that if you see a burka, it’s very unlikely to be a native Egyptian as that is not the custom there (yet…I suspect the MB will push for it )

I think it’s unrealistic to pretend that appearance doesn’t register a reaction. Maybe not so much in NYC but in most of America, something really off the reservation will elicit a reaction. In our city we have the phenomenon of aging male “hippies” with bald pates, scraggy ponytails and Birkenstocks…with socks of course as it’s usually cold here. Can’t say it astonishes me but I don’t get a positive feeling from that look either. I’m sure the same guy walking on the streets of Bogart, Georgia would get stares.

Lisa

Well, in NYC, one is soon desensitized to such things; otherwise, one would become de-energized by staring and reacting to the appearance of every other person one saw, and also it’s generally not an isolated case, including the full burka attire. I must admit though that once I saw a family of Amish people on the subway and was curious because they did seem to me out of place even in New York.

 

[JamesCaruso]

Correlation is not causation. And your studies are ancient. I was in grade school when some of them were done and I’m pushing 60 at this point. Sorry that dog don’t hunt. Violent crime in this country is due to dysfunctional families and drugs for the most part. Are the families poor because they are dysfunctional or dysfunctional because they are poor? It’s not simply poverty. There has to be depravity and a lack of good character for there to be violence.

For quite a while the theory that Muslims are violent because they are poor canard was trotted out as an excuse for the inexcusable. However 9/11, Osama Bin Laden, and various other Al Qaeda leaders put that theory to rest.

As to your niece, I pity her because I don’t believe she would have converted if not for marrying a Muslim. I’m on the RCIA team and sadly I see a number of people converting ONLY because they are marrying a Catholic and feel pressure to do so. Sometimes they fall in love with the Church along the way but as I observe who is or is not at Mass, those whose hearts were on fire for the Church and not their spouse or intended spouse ARE there every week, participating and engaged in the Parish. Those who were “dragged” into the Church by a spouse or in laws haven’t been seen since the Easter Vigil. Further if your niece is in America, wearing the burka will make her an object of curiosity, animosity or pity. This is NOT a tradition in this country. In fact it’s not even an Islamic tradition, it’s an ARAB tradition that has migrated due to the power of the Saudi Oil money and influence.

Lisa

But that dog can sure sniff a bad argument. No one said it was causation and no one said it was the only contributing factor, so enough of your superior wisdom. Their is no causation with being a believer in Islam either. Being Muslim does not cause terrorism. But from your own mouth, “There has to be depravity and a lack of good character for there to be violence” and being Muslim does not imbue depravity and lack of good character.

Your reference to poverty and Muslim violence is your idea because I did not bring that up. I only used poverty as an analogous situation. So let’s not put words in my mouth.

Actually, she may be a curiosity, but she is very beautiful in her burka, so it is a curiosity that is actually quite becoming, unlike the dreadful, but USA-acceptable, garb of nuns. I happen to like the idea of religious garb showing humility and poverty, but they do stand out like a sore thumb, and if you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for them. Even though it is their chosen expression, they must often feel at odds with the rest of the world, which I guess is the intent-- but still, it’s not always easy. As far as burkas being a curiosity, I don’t know where you live, but they are commonplace here. There is even one very nice lady on my block who wears one; I know her from the fact that every morning she is at the bus stop with two kids waiting to see them onto the school bus. I’ve seen another older lady on walking on our block, but I am not sure where she lives, or if she is visiting. I live near Washington, D.C., and we are a very diverse community. On my own block there are Koreans, Chinese, Chinese-Americans, Indians, Afro-Americans, Africans, white American Catholics, white American Protestants, white Jews, and Hispanics. It is a typical neighborhood here.

I think the burka is more properly a product of Muslim culture, not especially Arab culture. Veiling one’s face goes back far before Islam, but the garb was not called Burka. While the garb is not mentioned in the Koran, it is used by Muslim women to show modesty in dress, which is a principle in Islam. The burka is mainly worn in Afghanistan, rural Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. What Saudi oil money has to do with dress in those countries is beyond me.

 

[PJM]

=Aelred Minor;10906998]We should treat and view Muslims with realistic caution and Christian charity. We need to avoid both naivety and bigotry in our attitudes. Really nothing can replace charity and a firm grasp on reality.

I totally agree!

well said my friend!