How should Catholics treat and view Muslims?

[LisaA]

But that dog can sure sniff a bad argument. No one said it was causation and no one said it was the only contributing factor, so enough of your superior wisdom. Their is no causation with being a believer in Islam either. Being Muslim does not cause terrorism. But from your own mouth, “There has to be depravity and a lack of good character for there to be violence” and being Muslim does not imbue depravity and lack of good character.

Your reference to poverty and Muslim violence is your idea because I did not bring that up. I only used poverty as an analogous situation. So let’s not put words in my mouth.

Actually, she may be a curiosity, but she is very beautiful in her burka, so it is a curiosity that is actually quite becoming, unlike the dreadful, but USA-acceptable, garb of nuns. I happen to like the idea of religious garb showing humility and poverty, but they do stand out like a sore thumb, and if you want to feel sorry for someone, feel sorry for them. Even though it is their chosen expression, they must often feel at odds with the rest of the world, which I guess is the intent-- but still, it’s not always easy. As far as burkas being a curiosity, I don’t know where you live, but they are commonplace here. There is even one very nice lady on my block who wears one; I know her from the fact that every morning she is at the bus stop with two kids waiting to see them onto the school bus. I’ve seen another older lady on walking on our block, but I am not sure where she lives, or if she is visiting. I live near Washington, D.C., and we are a very diverse community. On my own block there are Koreans, Chinese, Chinese-Americans, Indians, Afro-Americans, Africans, white American Catholics, white American Protestants, white Jews, and Hispanics. It is a typical neighborhood here.

I think the burka is more properly a product of Muslim culture, not especially Arab culture. Veiling one’s face goes back far before Islam, but the garb was not called Burka. While the garb is not mentioned in the Koran, it is used by Muslim women to show modesty in dress, which is a principle in Islam. The burka is mainly worn in Afghanistan, rural Pakistan, India and Bangladesh. What Saudi oil money has to do with dress in those countries is beyond me.

Great strawman but you were the one who brought up the totally extraneous subject of poverty resulting in violence and thus should we be afraid of poor people…" Bad character and depravity are not characteristic of Muslims or any other group. It’s quite individual and I believe that drugs and fatherless homes are major contributors in America. I noticed you had no response or argument so I guess you must agree.

I think if you were to look at photos of Pakistanis, Afghans, and Egyptians from the 1970s and earlier, you would NOT see burkas. This is an Arab tribal dress. Again I am not talking a headscarf but total cover with the eye slit. The Arabs have been extremely influential in setting up Maddrassas all over the world to spread their particularly restrictive sect called Wahhabism. This is particularly restrictive of women who are not allowed to drive, go out in public unless accompanied by a man, no schooling, etc. So when I imagine your niece in a burka I see oppression and restriction. One does not need to wear a shapeless black bag to dress modestly. As to the comparison to Religious sisters, there are many variations in habits and while all Religious no longer wear the habit, I disagree that they stand out like “a sore thumb.” Just as the priest in his collar, they identify as Catholic Priests or Religious. Your reaction to them is likely to reflect your feelings about Catholics, Priests or Religious. I look at them and think happy thoughts about dedicated and devoted servants of God. But because I have a negative response to burkas, I look at them and think how sad. To me they represent oppression and restriction.

As I have mentioned, I have plenty of experience working with, for and around Muslims. I take them at face value as none of them have every spouted anti American or anti Semitic remarks. So to get back to the thread, I treat them appropriately depending on their station in life and how I relate to them if at all.

Lisa

 

[JamesCaruso]

Great strawman but you were the one who brought up the totally extraneous subject of poverty resulting in violence and thus should we be afraid of poor people…" Bad character and depravity are not characteristic of Muslims or any other group. It’s quite individual and I believe that drugs and fatherless homes are major contributors in America. I noticed you had no response or argument so I guess you must agree.

I think if you were to look at photos of Pakistanis, Afghans, and Egyptians from the 1970s and earlier, you would NOT see burkas. This is an Arab tribal dress. Again I am not talking a headscarf but total cover with the eye slit. The Arabs have been extremely influential in setting up Maddrassas all over the world to spread their particularly restrictive sect called Wahhabism. This is particularly restrictive of women who are not allowed to drive, go out in public unless accompanied by a man, no schooling, etc. So when I imagine your niece in a burka I see oppression and restriction. One does not need to wear a shapeless black bag to dress modestly. As to the comparison to Religious sisters, there are many variations in habits and while all Religious no longer wear the habit, I disagree that they stand out like “a sore thumb.” Just as the priest in his collar, they identify as Catholic Priests or Religious. Your reaction to them is likely to reflect your feelings about Catholics, Priests or Religious. I look at them and think happy thoughts about dedicated and devoted servants of God. But because I have a negative response to burkas, I look at them and think how sad. To me they represent oppression and restriction.

As I have mentioned, I have plenty of experience working with, for and around Muslims. I take them at face value as none of them have every spouted anti American or anti Semitic remarks. So to get back to the thread, I treat them appropriately depending on their station in life and how I relate to them if at all.

Lisa

No strawman, Lisa, only pointing out that it is wrong to tie Islam to violence.

I did not answer your statements about poverty because they were extraneous to our discussion of Islam. The point was, and is, paranoia about Muslims is just as wrong as paranoia about poor people.

Who said anything about burkas in Egypt, Lisa?

But they are worn in the places I have mentioned. You must have been looking at photos that were deliberately trying to put forth a modern view of those countries. Below is a link to pictures of Afghani women wearing burka in the 21st century. Much of that has been ended by our war in that country, but if you followed the news, it was a big issue throughout the war.

travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/countries/afghanistan-photos/#/afhganistan-burka_4111_600x450.jpg

In India it is such a problem that there is a movement to ban the burka. India has 10% of the Muslim population in the world.

Traditional nun’s garb does stand out like a sore thumb. I ought to know, I was taught for eight years by nuns. Of course I was not referring to the modernized versions seen nowadays, but the others still do exist. And if you read my paragraph on their dress I said nothing that was derogatory or showed any degree of disdain for them or their dress. In fact, I put it in a favorable light. Habits were not meant to be glamorous, Lisa, that was part of the idea. But as usual, your argument is trying to impute feelings on me that do not exist. I love the Catholic Church, its nuns and its priests. BTW, why you brought up priests, I don’t know, since I did not refer to them, nor do I think they stick out like a sore thumb???

There is too much fear and hatred of Muslim people being ginned up. It is true that there was in Islam’s past the use of violence to subdue unbelievers on a mass scale. It is that past that radical Muslims are trying to fan into a wildfire of hatred and violence. They would love nothing more than to polarize the Christian world against the Muslim world. We should not assist them in this endeavor. It is very important not to demonize the entire Muslim faith because of the acts of these terrorists. The more westerners see Muslims as “them” and not as individuals, as tied to violence, as incompatible with our culture, the more we fall into the trap laid by the radical Muslims. I refuse to fan the flames of Muslim distrust, suspicion, hatred, and fear. That is a sure prescription for war and violence. Bush had it just right. He made the distinction.

I am happy with Pope Francis’ past and present desire to draw Muslims and Catholics closer together. I have Muslim acquaintances and do not see them in any way as a threat. I have anti-Muslim acquaintances, and I do see them as a threat, a threat to peace in our country since they see all Muslims as rooted in violence, totally incompatible with American life, and all part of a vast Muslim conspiracy to rule the world. This mentality is dangerous, but it’s an easy one to fall into. It wouldn’t be the first time this country fell into a group-think against certain other minority groups of citizens, including Catholics.

 

[LisaA]

No strawman, Lisa, only pointing out that it is wrong to tie Islam to violence.

I have Muslim acquaintances and do not see them in any way as a threat. I have anti-Muslim acquaintances, and I do see them as a threat, a threat to peace in our country since they see all Muslims as rooted in violence, totally incompatible with American life, and all part of a vast Muslim conspiracy to rule the world. This mentality is dangerous, but it’s an easy one to fall into. It wouldn’t be the first time this country fell into a group-think against certain other minority groups of citizens, including Catholics.

I clipped the extraneous portions of your post to respond and stay on topic. Yet another strawman set ablaze with your first comment. Did you read the thread or just pick and choose? I said from my first post that there are Muslims and there are Islamists. I have no disagreement or problems with peaceful, law abiding Muslims. One of our doctors (now retired) is a Muslim. He worked hard to let his friends, co-workers, and employees know about his faith with invitations to talks, Muslim prayers, and his daughter’s wedding which incidentally was a sight to behold and lasted about six hours.

On the other hand, Islamists who are Muslims with a particular world view ARE a serious threat to peace in this country and in the world. By coincidence a friend sent along this list of attacks perpetrated by Muslim males…the point being that the TSA is apparently so afraid of offending someone that granny must take her shoes off and a mother is asked to drink her own breast milk to prove it’s not an explosive.

I find it LAUGHABLE that your “anti-Muslim” friends are considered a threat. Just like the pro aborts rail against elderly nuns saying the rosary outside of an abortion clinic. Truly mad.

But as to why we should “trust but verify” when encountering potential terrorists. the reality is that the majority of international violence and domestic terror attacks are all done in the name of Islam.

**A lot of Americans have become so insulated from reality that they imagine that America can just ignore the main cause of domestic and international terrorism, radical Islam. We are so afraid of offending someone or APPEARING to be anti-Islam that we ignore reality.

Pause a moment, reflect back.These events are actual events from history.They really happened!! Do you remember?

1. In 1968 , Bobby Kennedy was shot and killed by a Muslim male.
2. In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by Muslim males.
3. In 1972 a Pan Am 747 was hijacked and eventually diverted to Cairo where a fuse was lit on final approach and it was blown up shortly after landing by Muslim males.
4. In 1973 a Pan Am 707 was destroyed in Rome , with 33 people killed, when it was attacked with grenades by Muslim males.
5. In 1979 , the US embassy in Iran was taken over by Muslim males.
6. During the 1980’s a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by Muslim males.
7. In 1983 , the US Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by Muslim males .
8. In 1985 , the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and thrown overboard in his wheelchair by Muslim males.
9. In 1985 , TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens , and a US Navy diver trying to rescue passengers was murdered by Muslim males.
10. In 1988 , Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by Muslim males.
11. In 1993 , the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by Muslim males.
12. In 1998 , the US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by Muslim males.
13. On 9/11/01 , four airliners were hijacked; two were used as missiles to take down the World Trade Centers and of the remaining two, one crashed into the US Pentagon and the other was diverted and crashed by the passengers. Thousands of people were killed by Muslim males.
14. In 2002 , the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against Muslim males.
15. In 2002 , reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and beheaded by—you guessed it was a— Muslim males.
16. November 09, 13 dead and 32 injured by…a Muslim male…Nadal Hassan

And now the Boston Marathon another terrorist attack --by Muslim males.
No, I really don’t see a pattern here to justify profiling, do you?
So, to ensure we Americans never offend anyone, particularly fanatics intent on killing us, we have to pretend there is no pattern to these attacks.**

Again I have no problem with peaceful law abiding Muslim. I really don’t care what religion people practice although I must say I’m partial to Catholicism and would naturally have a more positive response to seeing a Religious or Priest than a member of another faith.

And I refuse to be the slightest bit sorry or remorseful that I am not sucked into the PC baloney that there is NO correlation between Islam and violence. There is. Again not all Muslims are terrorists but virtually all terrorists are Muslims. Do the math James.

Lisa

 

[JamesCaruso]

I clipped the extraneous portions of your post to respond and stay on topic. … Do the math James.

Lisa

I don’t know who you think I am, Lisa, but I find your language personally offensive. I am not any of the things you try to make me out to be and I don’t appreciate being lectured down to. I find you rude, without reason, presumptuous and having a despicable know-it-all attitude. Other than that, you’re okay with me.

The so-called extraneous paragraphs were only extraneous because they addressed your particular points made in your previous post.

I have no penchant for being politically correct, only morally correct and technically correct.

You may find my “anti-Muslim” acquaintances (I did not say friends) laughable in capital letters, but you don’t know them. Anyone who hates Muslims as a group is a threat to peace in this country, just as haters of Afro-Americans have been a threat, unless you think it’s all right to commit crimes against Muslims.

Islam as practiced in the time of Mohammad was violent. Islam as practiced by the vast majority of Muslims today is not violent. It is only your Islamists who see Islam as a reason for violence. If you think I am against profiling your would be wrong. I am against stirring up fear and hatred of Muslims. That is why I don’t like people talking about a tie between Islam and violence which easily leads people to hatred and fear of Muslims and believing that Islam causes violence. It does not. I know you made the distinction; but parts of your presentation could be misunderstood IMO. I do not say that there is no correlation if you put ancient Islam in the same basket as modern Islam. But there is no correlation between modern Islam and violence. The trouble is, it is hard to tell who believes in modern Islam and who believes in ancient Islam. At one time Catholics committed massacres against entire town of Jews. They did so in the name of Christ. Is there a correlation between Catholicism and violence? If some Catholics began advocating for renewed hatred and killing of Jews, would there be a correlation between Catholicism and violence? Don’t bother answering-- it’s rhetorical.

No one is denying that radical Muslims are a threat. No one. So stop putting words in my mouth. Please. You are really infuriating with your reading into what I write. If I were in charge of Us policy I would drastically curtail immigration and visits from the Middle East and some other countries until we had a firm handle on terrorism. I am far more politically incorrect than even you can imagine. I would have such a policy, not because I believe that most Middle Easterners are terrorists, but because I know that the terrorists come from that locality. I would also curtail visits from the US to the Middle East; they would be one way only. Some necessary travel would be allowed, but it would have to pass through the strictest of security.

You may have the last word, because I do not intend to respond. I do not feel you have the ability to understand my words, as you have misinterpreted everything I have said so far. Your mind seems to be off somewhere fighting fights with an opponent who is not there. I have put up with more of your abuse that I should have. No more.

 

[LisaA]

I don’t know who you think I am, Lisa, but I find your language personally offensive. I am not any of the things you try to make me out to be and I don’t appreciate being lectured down to. I find you rude, without reason, presumptuous and having a despicable know-it-all attitude. Other than that, you’re okay with me.

The so-called extraneous paragraphs were only extraneous because they addressed your particular points made in your previous post.

I have no penchant for being politically correct, only morally correct and technically correct.

You may find my “anti-Muslim” acquaintances (I did not say friends) laughable in capital letters, but you don’t know them. Anyone who hates Muslims as a group is a threat to peace in this country, just as haters of Afro-Americans have been a threat, unless you think it’s all right to commit crimes against Muslims.

Islam as practiced in the time of Mohammad was violent. Islam as practiced by the vast majority of Muslims today is not violent. It is only your Islamists who see Islam as a reason for violence. If you think I am against profiling your would be wrong. I am against stirring up fear and hatred of Muslims. That is why I don’t like people talking about a tie between Islam and violence which easily leads people to hatred and fear of Muslims and believing that Islam causes violence. It does not. I know you made the distinction; but parts of your presentation could be misunderstood IMO. I do not say that there is no correlation if you put ancient Islam in the same basket as modern Islam. But there is no correlation between modern Islam and violence. The trouble is, it is hard to tell who believes in modern Islam and who believes in ancient Islam. At one time Catholics committed massacres against entire town of Jews. They did so in the name of Christ. Is there a correlation between Catholicism and violence? If some Catholics began advocating for renewed hatred and killing of Jews, would there be a correlation between Catholicism and violence? Don’t bother answering-- it’s rhetorical.

No one is denying that radical Muslims are a threat. No one. So stop putting words in my mouth. Please. You are really infuriating with your reading into what I write. If I were in charge of Us policy I would drastically curtail immigration and visits from the Middle East and some other countries until we had a firm handle on terrorism. I am far more politically incorrect than even you can imagine. I would have such a policy, not because I believe that most Middle Easterners are terrorists, but because I know that the terrorists come from that locality. I would also curtail visits from the US to the Middle East; they would be one way only. Some necessary travel would be allowed, but it would have to pass through the strictest of security.

You may have the last word, because I do not intend to respond. I do not feel you have the ability to understand my words, as you have misinterpreted everything I have said so far. Your mind seems to be off somewhere fighting fights with an opponent who is not there. I have put up with more of your abuse that I should have. No more.

Wow pots and kettles as well as strawmen. I list actual events where the common factor was Muslim (I would call them Islamist) males but you’re the picture of charity accusing me “** I find you rude, without reason, presumptuous and having a despicable know-it-all attitude**.” Oh and I don’t think I said it was “fine” to unless **you think it’s all right to commit crimes against Muslims. ** but that’s not putting words into someone else’s mouth?

And I wondered how long it would take for the Crusades to come up. Given that Catholics have not engaged in such activities for thousands of years, I always wonder why people somehow equate ancient albeit unjustified attacks on Jews by Catholics on continuing and current attacks by Islamists…often on other Muslims as well as Jews, Christians and anyone else who gets in the way of this evil agenda. It’s so ironic that the West is considered at war with Islam, when Muslims are being killed by other Muslims, and it’s often women and children who become cannon fodder rather than actual combantants.

I’m happy to hear you have a realistic outlook on travel and hopefully immigration from certain countries and regions. The violent sects and individuals and groups are somewhat geographically associated. Unfortunately they have been able to export this philosophy, if not in person, via the Internet. Recent violence has resulted from “homegrown” terrorists who were radicalized via associations. We have to remain vigilant and not allow our country’s natural openess to visitors and willingness to accept diverse opinions to endanger our citizens.

Again for the tenth time, I have no problem with peace loving members of any religion, or in fact no religion. It’s only when we encounter a radical and violent philosophy in the guise of religious observance that we must “profile.” Ignoring reality has been fatal.

Lisa