With regard to the Jews…I am waiting to hear back from the Coptic Orthodox priest I correspond with to have his say on this issue. It has actually been put forth by several Orthodox priests I have listened to and more whom I have talked to that the Jews do not in fact worship our God. The thinking here, as best as I can tell, is that while they did worship correctly and consistently before the incarnation, in the Old Testament times, by failing to recognize Jesus Christ as being of the same Father that they worshiped in those days, they are in fact failing to recognize the one they once worshiped, and have in effect decided that their rejection of the Messiah is so important that they are willing to disobey God in order to maintain their obstinacy in the face of overwhelming evidence of Christ’s miracles, the historicity of the crucifixion, and all the other things that we Christians take as evidence of Jesus Christ’s Messiahship and Divine Sonship.
I’m not going to pretend that that’s easy to swallow. In fact, I’ll go as far to say that of all the things drilled into me as a Catholic, the view of the Jews as worshipers of the one true God is the one thing that I find the most difficult to reconsider. It just
seems like it should be that way, doesn’t it? After all, all Christians (Orthodox and heterodox) accept the OT as being God’s word, and accept that Our Savior was Himself a Jew, and accept the OT prophets as worshipers of our God…so how can it be that they have it wrong?
Well…again, I’m still in the process of trying to figure all of this out…but in a way I can see where the logic of this claim comes from: The fault of the Jews is not the same as that of the Muslims. The Jews, worshiping the one God who had not yet revealed Himself to the world as a Trinity, simply went on as they always had once the majority of them had decided that Jesus was a false Messiah. Yet, from a Christian perspective, their rejection of Jesus Christ was not simply an exercise in free agency, a way of saying “no thank you; we’ll stick with our ways” –
they were actually rejecting God by rejecting Christ. It seems a little odd that Christians should have to be reminded of this, but in case anyone has forgotten,
Christ is God and those who reject Him will be rejected before the Father who sent Him. To believe otherwise is to believe that God’s Trinitarian nature is some sort of optional belief that you can either hold or not hold, depending on how you want to see God. But what is there to substantiate this idea that your intellect should be the deciding factor in how GOD decides to reveal Himself? Surely if we are going to engage in such games and establish parallel salvation histories so that the Jews can get out of having to follow Christ and yet still worship God (and the Muslims can do the same, and the ____ can do the same…), couldn’t God have simply decided NOT to become incarnate in the womb of the holy virgin St. Mary, then none of us would be Christians, and we wouldn’t need to puzzle over the mystery of the Trinity? That would’ve been a lot easier, right? It would have “made sense” and Erwin would’ve been happy about it?
Alas, God’s ways are not our ways, and even if the Trinity had never been revealed to us, it still would
be. The Holy Trinity is, as is sung in one of my favorite Orthodox hymns, “uncreated and without beginning”, an “undivided unity”. That means
before we knew it, God existed in the one undivided and uncreated Holy Trinity.
What none of you who harp on the Jewish question seem to understand is that, far from creating a different standard by which the Jews or the Muslims may be judged for their belief or lack thereof, the heart of this question is not “what about the Jews?” The heart of this question (and I feel confident in writing this since I’m the one who started this damn thread and I seem to attract this argument from certain people wherever I go) is in fact “What about the Christians? What is appropriate for them, in dealing with other religions?” All that I can be at all confident about in this regard is that we cling to the Holy Trinity. It is not some manufactured “tension” with the place of the Jews that rankles me whenever this topic is brought up, but this idea that maybe each one can have bits and pieces of God, and that’s good enough. I am not all made uncomfortable by the Jews. Can those of you who are bringing up the Jews in this debate and suggesting that they make us “uncomfortable” honestly say that you are comfortable
with the Holy Trinity? I am, and if through my devotion to the Holy Trinity, the one God, I have to deny the Jews who have denied Our Lord to begin with, then that’s just what I’ll do. The Jew from Galilee who was crucified for us and for our salvation is the ONLY Jew I am actually interested in following, anyway.
Until I hear back from the priest, this will be my only post on this matter. I have given my personal opinion, which should in no way detract from Mikey’s very correct assertion that this thread is about Muslims and Islam. I just figured I should answer it once and for all since certain forces here on CAF are determined to not let a moment pass without beating us all over the head with their iron logic and inescapable arguments. Rather than have these be spread out against all users who dissent from the professional opinions of the Judeo-reminders, please Erwin, Tomarin, et. al., give me the brunt of whatever it is you have.
Start a new thread about it, if you wish. I’ll post in it. I promise. We can continue this argument for however long you’d like. It is a debt I will attempt to pay to the Orthodox who are teaching me. Leave this thread to be about Islam.
One is the Holy Father, One is the Holy Son, One is the Holy Spirit. Amen.
