How Should Christians Approach Islam and Muslims?

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dzheremi -

What I would say is that it is the fact that the Jews do in fact know and recognize God that makes their rejection of Christ so serious. And the principle follows in general with Muslims, or Christian heretics, or atheists. Their object after they reject Christ is the same - the Father alone really - but they are trying to have him and reject him at the same time. It’s in that contradiction that the sin lies
I believe your right. The dialogue has been much more open with Judaism. The Judo-Christian relationship in also not strained and maintians a good working relationship.

Nonetheless…

IMO the definition by many Catholic Christians in the area of Islam is incorrect. The simple truth is the catechism becomes interpreted incorrectly. Matter of fact if anyone read Light of the World, Benedict is very clear on his position with islam which He has not changed, nor has the thinking changed at all since the original confrontations with Islam in the 1500’s.

Matter of Fact Benedict clearly stated the only two aspects we have in common with Islam are, we both Worship a God, and we are both Obediant to a God. Thats it! There is no other areas in common at all. Islam can profess to worship the God of Abraham which of course they do. But through Allah Islams God of Abraham becomes defined very differently than Judaism and more importantly Christains.
 
I was thinking about Bluegoat had said in the last post.

Couple points come to mind.

The Council for Interreligious dialogue proposed both the topic of Truth and Tolerance to Islamic leaders and questioned them on the relationship of the two. The question then became whether tolerance includes the right to change an aspect of a religion. Islam had a very hard time accepting this. Islams argument became once someone has arrived at truth, he can no longer go back. Yet in this regard in understanding the quran we are confronted with idea’s such as “be and it is” and mohammads ideas and visions. So when that becomes your truth the philosophy and history of the faith becomes a long drawn out process.

Today we as all religions stand on one side, secularism on the other. There lies the difference of our situation today with Islam as opposed to the 1500’s. Obviously Islam is lived very differently depending on historical tradition and provenance and the current relationships of power. So in essence the question again gets back to what is Truth and Tolerance , and if it can be changed and interpreted differently from country to country, how in fact can it be truth?

Where Islam feels the need to be the defenders and counterweight to the west the sense for Truth then can narrow to the point of becoming intolerance, thus making coexistence with Christians very difficult.

Whats important here is to remain in close contact with all the current ties in Islam that are open to and capable of dialogue, as to give a change of mentality a chance to happen. And yes even where Islam still couples a claim of truth with violence. There are followers of Islam who actually eat with a fork, and have been to school. You might not want to believe it, but not all behavior on a individual basis is barbaric.

Islam needs to clarify two questions in regards to public dialogue, and that is its relation to violence and its relation to reason.

From the on-set the idea is not to dissolve one religion into another. Thats not going to happen on either side, and this could only happen when a thinking mind see’s a fault and non-truth in the path they follow. Then they are left a choice again to the path they believe is truth. Which may well be to ammend and adjust.

So as to answer the above question, its a combination of what I spoke about earlier in “behavior”. And what in fact we consider correct and appropriate “behavior” in the modern, civil world today, and the constant quest to bring the Truth of what Islam in fact is to light, and to constantly suggest “tolerance” until a mind can themselves reach that Truth on their own. It also is a process to clearly understand your own faith as opposed to Islam. Here is another issue which I spoke about in the previous post. Followers of the faith read into the catechism and hear what they want, not what is said.

And the dialogue is no different in the East-West Christian Churchs in this regard, thats another falacy which could be put to rest. And the persistant idea to propose a difference of opinion in this matter compounds the problem and inhibits the unity to reslove the issues. MOF if someone from the Orthodox Church actually has a written document from the Patriarch of Constantinople which presents a radically different idea then post it up. We all want to read it. I don’t believe it exists but in the mind!

Listen, lets not pat ourselves on the back to much here, wasn’t long ago in the US slavery was a norm here. And if we look around today at what we in fact tolerate here its insanity also. So, in fact for Islam to look to the West I would imagine it becomes pretty easy to rationalize their own behavior.🤷 Ours isn’t all that cool either. The crime rate in the US is off the hook, drugs, rape, murder and on and on. Yes we have came a long way in 250-years, but we haven’t “arrived” to be sure.

Which is also why I mention above we need to get back on track here in the US and Western Europe and finish the conversion process started many years ago. We’re the ones dropping the ball here. Not our forefathers. They put the work in and if you closely look at minds like Ignatius of Loyola, that period was NOT much different than this. Fact is they correctly evaluated the issues and set out to correct them.

Were still talking and with a futile attempt I might add. And the problem is not going away. And just like you don’t want to see insanity become the calling card, so to there are muslims who want to see a better day also.
 
LOL! How can I be labeled as inconsistent if I have not answered it.
Are you saying that one can avoid being held responsible for the intellectual consequences of one’s position by simply refusing to answer? That would be highly convenient, wouldn’t it?

My charge is this: either you are willing to say that Western Christians and Jews do not worship the same God, or you are inconsistent. You have refused to say that Western Christians and Jews do not worship the same God. Hence you are inconsistent.
But of course you have uncharitably put many words in my mouth.
What words have I put in your mouth? I have pointed out the consequences that follow from your position. Since you refuse to grant those consequences, you are inconsistent.

The only way to have a substantive dialogue is to deal with what people actually say and the consequences that I see following from those statements. That’s what I’m doing. You call it “putting words in your mouth” because you want to be excused from responsibility for the logical consequences of what you say.
Correct. Jesus is God and the Jews do not believe it.
So either you need to say without qualification or hesitation that Jews worship a false god, or you need to modify/clarify your “all or nothing” principle, or you need to qualify your claim that Muslims worship a false god.
Western Christians argue that when they say “and the Son” they are meaning “through the Son”. That is what the Eastern Catholics (and many Western Christians tell me).
So you disagree with Lossky and agree with the more ecumenical members of your Communion in saying that we Westerners do have a substantively correct doctrine of the Trinity, even though we have erred in adding a phrase to the Creed? If you are merely in doubt as to whether Lossky is correct, then your “all-or-nothing” principle requires you to be in corresponding doubt as to whether we worship the true God or not. Or, if you accept the view that “through the Son” is acceptable, then you are required to say that those of us who mean “through the Son” worship the true God, while others do not or may not.
As you know, the Filioque in itself is an endless debate. But of course we are talking about Islam here.
Right. And your contention about Islam is that partially correct views of God don’t count, so that if you believe something false about God you worship a false God. Am I incorrect in understanding your position that way?

Given that principle, we have to look at other partially correct (from your perspective) views of God to see if you are willing to apply the principle consistently. If you aren’t, then your position collapses, because your principle has proven to be untenable. I think that your principle is untenable. So I can’t possibly engage your view of Islam without discussing these other examples. Your position stands or falls on the strength of your “all-or-nothing” principle.
Now you are being contentious.
Of course I am. That’s why this is a debate/discussion forum. I am being contentious in the service of the truth, refuting a position that seems to me seriously wrong.

I welcome substantive rebuttal on your part. But so far I have awaited such a response from you in vain.
Correct. This is about Islam.
But if the principle you are using to judge Islam cannot be used consistently when it applies to other religious traditions, then the principle collapses and you need a better one. I have presented an argument to this effect. You are refusing to respond to it.
I am so saddened by your conclusions and rush to judgement.
Then make both of us happy by articulating your position consistently. Don’t use principles with regard to Islam that you aren’t willing to apply across the board.

I will retract the statement about “hatred of Islam.” I fail to see why, on your principles, this was an insult or in any way uncharitable. If I thought as you do, I would hate Islam. There is nothing wrong or uncharitable about hating an evil ideology. I explicitly said that I wasn’t accusing you of hating *Muslims. *Let me rephrase what I meant, since the word “hatred” has apparently distracted and confused you:

I think that you have a deep aversion to what you perceive as the evil of Islam, and that that aversion (completely righteous given your beliefs and perceptions) leads you not to think about the subject as carefully and consistently as you normally would. That’s what I’m accusing you of. I’m not accusing you of being uncharitable, and I fail to see where I have been uncharitable myself. (Either of us may be uncharitable, but that’s between each of us and God. Let’s leave it off the table and talk about *truth. *Then we may get somewhere. Spiritually diagnosing each other as a substitute for argument is going to get us nowhere.)
Then let’s discuss truth and leave each other’s charity or lack thereof to God.
I have let one of the Church Fathers speak for me. It was very clear.
Saying that it was clear doesn’t make it so. I pointed out that St. John nowhere says that Muslims worship a false god. I pointed to the broader context in which he uses the word "God’ univocally, which while not conclusive supports my interpretation more than yours. You have not responded to these arguments. Simply repeating that you are right is not an argument.
You have offered nothing to show that the Islam worships the true God. Whereas I have offered an excellent patristic source.
Which does not say that Islam worships a false god.

Edwin
 
Read it again. They went from idol worshippers to a mix of idol worshipping, Arian, Mohammedist fables.
It’s true that he asserts that the Black Stone is Aphrodite’s head, and that Muslims are in no position to accuse Christians of idolatry given that they continue to venerate the Black Stone. However, he says that they “used” to worship Aphrodite. In other words, yes he’s accusing them of continuing a former idolatrous practice, but he grants that the explanation (which he thinks is silly) that they offer for the practice attempts to relate it to Abraham and thus to the worship of the true God. This strengthens my point. If he thought like you, one would think he would say, “And while you don’t worship Aphrodite any more, you now worship the false god whom you call Allah.” Yet he doesn’t do any such thing. He tacitly grants that they do now worship the God of Abraham, who is the true God, although they continue a vestige of former idolatry and give it an inadequate explanation to sanitize it.
If that is the true God, then my name is Edwin.
If St. John accepted your “all-or-nothing” principle, then this would be a valid inference. But of course that would set him at odds with the entire patristic tradition, which consistently recognized that the God of the pagan philosophers was the true God.
You are simply dismissing it based on your pre-conceived bias.
No, I have given arguments explaining why I interpret it this way. I invite you to respond to those arguments.
Have you heard the term Allah Akbar (god is great)? These, then, were idolators and worshippers of the morning star and Aphrodite whom in fact they called Chabar in their own language, which means “great.”
This is really the best you can do? He doesn’t even make the connection with “Allah Akhbar” explicitly, though I grant that he’s probably expecting his readers to make it for him. Again, though, what he doesn’t say speaks volumes. He doesn’t say that “Allah” is a pagan god. He argues that they once used the same adjective for a pagan deity that they now use for Allah. Which hardly proves anything–it’s a fairly weak attempt at guilt by association, but it never crosses his mind to say “therefore Allah is a pagan god.”

He’s certainly suggesting that their worship of the true God is tainted by bits of their old idolatry. And if he accepted your principles, that would be enough. But the point that needs to be proved is that he accepted your principles.

You have claimed that I’ve given no patristic sources. Wrong. Apart from the passage you have cited, which supports my position more than yours, I have cited a passage from Augustine’s City of God, and I could cite many more like it if you wish. While this passage doesn’t deal with Islam, it does deal with pagan NeoPlatonism. Unless you are willing to claim that pagan NeoPlatonists worshiped the true God and Islam did not, the passage from Augustine is relevant.

The principle I’m arguing for is that the Fathers consistently regarded all monotheists as speaking of the true God, even when this monotheism was purely philosophical and was combined with the idolatrous worship of lesser beings. (That is sufficient answer to your interpretation of the passages where John of Damascus speaks of continuing idolatry among Muslims, by the way.) I have provided evidence for this principle. You have provided none on the other side. The only evidence you have presented works for your position only if you can show that St. John of Damascus supports your pinciple and not mine.
Wrong. He says it in the sense that it is unrecognizable from the Christian God.
Again, the word “unrecognizable” is yours and not his. A mutilated statue may still be recognizable.

Also, bear in mind that these charges you make so much of are his “quid pro quo” to Islamic accusations. Yet Muslims have historically affirmed that we and they worship the same God. The most reasonable interpretation–unless you have other evidence–is that St. John is responding in kind, arguing for essentially the same view of Muslims that Muslims hold of Christians. That is to say, Muslims have a mutilated, quasi-idolatrous view of God, but the God they speak of is still recognizable as the true God (just as they say about us).
And of course, I disagree.:tiphat:
The fact of your disagreement is (with all due respect) less interesting than the reasons you give for it. Thanks for giving me some substantive dialogue in this post!

Edwin
 
Though without the Patristic witness I had hoped, the Coptic Orthodox priest I asked about this responded very simply, without mentioning any religion in particular: “At some point the worship of God according to a false understanding becomes the worship of a false God.” This is heresy to you all, isn’t it? I don’t really see why. God has given us everything we need to worship Him correctly, especially in Christianity. In what other religion has God come and dwelt among us, and given us instructions from His mouth that if we deny Him among us, we will be denied in the next life? I don’t see how you can get around that, regardless of whatever sophistry you can come up with to substantiate ignoring it.

Such arguments are wholly unconvincing to me, anyway. Much is made about the pagans or others not worshiping what they know, while the apostles maintain that we worship what we do know. For some reason, the interpretation of these exchanges seeks to equate the unknown god of the pagans with the true God of Christianity. I am not sure why this is. No less a Biblical figure than JESUS CHRIST, OUR GOD dealt with a similar situation in the Gospel of John. In response to the questioning of the Samaritan woman, her Messiah tells her:
"You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Look at the words of the Savior. Essentially – you don’t know what you’re doing. We do. And we are the ones who are worshiping as you should be. Worship God in spirit and truth. Nowhere in this passage do we see anything about the Samaritans worshiping the same God as His followers do. Why would Jesus Christ emphasize worshiping “in truth” if whatever half-truth the Samaritans had was good enough? If the defenders of the Christ-deniers are right that getting “close enough” is good enough to be worshiping the same God, then surely this must have been just as much the case in the time of Our Lord, as God does not change. So why instead do we see all over the Bible such passages as this one and others that warn against worshiping false Gods (Deuteronomy 32:17 “They sacrificed to false Gods, gods they had not known”; emphasis mine), and setting up other things as God (Matthew’s warning about God and Mammon), and so forth? Why is the Bible so filled with such things if they are precluded from being a reality, because any worship of something you call “God” is worship of the true God? Has Our God wasted His words? Did He just not understand things in as sophisticated manner as modern man does? Which one of you will attempt to reform Him?
 
Abraham in short is the one who put his “Faith” in Gods promises; he trustingly accepted Gods Word and became the father of many nations.

Israel - as a State and Organized Society came not from Abraham but from Mose’s as told to him by God as the Holy Spirit {burning bush}. And Jesus Christ confirmed all this and and a matter of fact stated He would not change His fathers Law One Iota. He only defined and added to it and abolished blood sacrifice in enchange for His Blood.

Islam - as a Nation which exists in many countries came not from Abraham but from Mohammad. Who in fact denys Christ and so must He deny God then.

Christianity - Christ confirmed the commandments as the “foundation” of Christian moral. Christ then takes love of God and love of Neighbor from OT, then in the Gospel He gives a truly comprehensive interpretation. The love to which the Christian is committed to embrace everyone, “including enemies”.

It is in this moral code, from God and sanctioned in both Old and New Testaments, which is the tangible basis for all human legislation and life in any system.

Keep this scripture phrase in mind; “Do this in “MEMORY” of me” which is Christ obviously instituting the Eucharist at the Last Supper.

Christ was acquianted with this law of memory and He invokes it at a KEY MOMENT in His mission. Remembering and Forgeting are two important and opposed forces that operate in human and social history. Memory is the faculty which models the identity of human beings at both a personal level and collective level. In fact, it is through memory that our sense of idenitity forms and defines itself in the personal psyche.

Lets now turn to Islam, here at the point of memory we have a new thinking which re-writes history, picks and choose’s what it deems fit to guide and rejects the rest. Then claims all to be the word of God and Law. Picks and choose’s what Mohammad decides to use out of the OT-NT then throws that Book away, and writes the “Last Testament” with “spin” on it. So the “memory” becomes a new start at Mohammad. And we then have Memory and Forgetting now working against each other. Similiar to a child whos abducted at an early age and then they experience the stockholm syndrom[same concept]. A new history which forgets and re-writes at a time it deems more appropriate. And with all the Trauma of War with Mohammad and killing and raping its probly safe to say the conscious mind was trying to preserve its sanity and thus protect the soul. And he probly truly believed he had visions and he may well have had. But they were not divine. How could it be, good and evil cannot occupy the same space. Every mystic to come along in history has told us this.

Well its pretty easy to see the error here. The correlation between the God Abraham may in fact be true if we consider there is only one God. And the correlation between Judaism and Christianity is also true because we clearly see a working story line which evolves in time. Yet now when we place Islam under a microscope we have a problem. Not only with the written word, but more important with “memory”.

This isn’t how civilized man came into existence. If we trace Europe and the West in fact its Jesus from God to the Cross, to this day which re-writes and brings civilized man to the table. If man forgets where he came from and his history which is Jesus Christ and the Salvation and evolution of the Commandments in OT/NT. Then man reverts back to a barbaric state. And let me further expand here. When man reverts back to the barbaric state, he does not know this happened, and he cannot find his way back! If he knew that, he wouldn’t have reverted to a barbaric from the start.

Just look at Egypt and I rest my case. There you have a perfect example of a society going backwards. And to some degree its happened right here in the USA and Europe. And the only salvation in the US is Christianity or you can write this off also. So to Canada, Europe and elsewhere. Christ is the sanity and salvation which brings good as opposed to evil.

God/Christ brings humanity to the table, He brings civilized man to the table, He has had His hand out since Adam and Eve inviting man into communion with Him. Man is still refusing. And here are two aspects at work, and they are Good and evil. Theres no inbetween, no kinda, sorta, and maybe. If we haven’t learned this yet? Get ready because we are taking another trip on the Merry Go Round. When the memory of God/Christ and His Truth is forgotten, so to goes civil man out the window and evil rules and enslaves.

Islam has further evolved as a consequence in opposition to Christainity. During JPIIs time as Pope, the developed plan was to push Democracy in 3rd world countries. And up untill about a decade ago it worked. But now Islam has adjusted. Now as you see in Iran and starting in Egypt, Democracy becomes an abomination itself. Its a word used to install a new government at Radical Islams will, then quickly turn that into a Dictatorship in the name of Democracy? And control, enslave, and so forth. What do you hear in Egypt? They want a democracy. But one installed by Radical Isalm which in fact will not be a democracy but a dictatorship.

Listen, I may not have it “all right”. But I’m not far off. Anyway as Islam adjusts so does the civil world and christianity. And the new agenda is to deal specifically with acceptable behavior in a civil society.
 
You’re not even close.

The protests (revolution) in Egypt really don’t have anything to do with Islam, but rather with a people who have been oppressed by a dictator for 30 years and are fed up with him and his regime.

I read an article this morning at the Huffington Post comparing Egypt to Iran and why they are nothing alike. You can look it up if you want.
 
I am hearing it is political and not religious. But I hope it doesn’t go religious through the Muslim Brotherhood.
 
You’re not even close.

The protests (revolution) in Egypt really don’t have anything to do with Islam, but rather with a people who have been oppressed by a dictator for 30 years and are fed up with him and his regime.

I read an article this morning at the Huffington Post comparing Egypt to Iran and why they are nothing alike. You can look it up if you want.
We will see in time, and the “protests” your referring to seems to down-play the violent riots wouldn’t you say? And exactly who do you think that was rioting christians, atheists? Egypt is 91% muslim:shrug: And most definately the MB would be the concern.

Never said Iran and Egypt were the same. Iran runs a so called Democracy is what I said. And I would hope thats not the game in Egypt. But all the signs are there arn’t they?

How do you seperate political/religious with Islam when it is political/religious?
 
My Coptic friends tell me that it’s not religious. Apparently HH Pope Shenouda III has asked that the Copts not participate in the demonstrations, since the coming government is not likely to be favorable to the Copts, so they’re just going to get arrested and beaten in jail (like everybody else) basically for nothing. I don’t know how true that is. I haven’t seen any statements from him about this. It would make sense that there might be a bad taste in Coptic mouths about protesting, though, given the bad experiences recently following the Alexandria protests (live ammo fired at protesters, hundreds arrested and beaten in jail, etc.) Mubarak’s government is definitely corrupt and I don’t think any Egyptian is truly sad to see him go, though some are on guard because what’s coming next might not be better (particularly for the Christians, since they say El-Baradei is too chummy with the MB).

The MB, it should be noted, stayed out of the protests at first, apparently to avoid looking like they orchestrated them. A smart move, though I don’t know how much it would matter if the coming government decriminalizes them. On the other hand, the latest news I was able to find says Omar Suleiman has been sworn in as VP, and apparently he’s the guy who was head of Egyptian Security when they kicked Ayman Al-Zawahiri out of Egypt, so things might not be completely hopeless. I dunno.

What is all this doing in this thread, anyway?
 
Google “News for Muslim Brotherhood” and read the latest report from 1-hr ago.

Whats the death toll, have you heard? I’m hearing various numbers ranging up to 150.

You know how it is with believing what you read though, its hard to say at the moment for sure. And your right it has nothing to do with the OP.
 
Though without the Patristic witness I had hoped, the Coptic Orthodox priest I asked about this responded very simply, without mentioning any religion in particular: “At some point the worship of God according to a false understanding becomes the worship of a false God.” This is heresy to you all, isn’t it? I don’t really see why. God has given us everything we need to worship Him correctly, especially in Christianity. In what other religion has God come and dwelt among us, and given us instructions from His mouth that if we deny Him among us, we will be denied in the next life? I don’t see how you can get around that, regardless of whatever sophistry you can come up with to substantiate ignoring it.

Such arguments are wholly unconvincing to me, anyway. Much is made about the pagans or others not worshiping what they know, while the apostles maintain that we worship what we do know. For some reason, the interpretation of these exchanges seeks to equate the unknown god of the pagans with the true God of Christianity. I am not sure why this is. No less a Biblical figure than JESUS CHRIST, OUR GOD dealt with a similar situation in the Gospel of John. In response to the questioning of the Samaritan woman, her Messiah tells her:

Look at the words of the Savior. Essentially – you don’t know what you’re doing. We do. And we are the ones who are worshiping as you should be. Worship God in spirit and truth. Nowhere in this passage do we see anything about the Samaritans worshiping the same God as His followers do. Why would Jesus Christ emphasize worshiping “in truth” if whatever half-truth the Samaritans had was good enough? If the defenders of the Christ-deniers are right that getting “close enough” is good enough to be worshiping the same God, then surely this must have been just as much the case in the time of Our Lord, as God does not change. So why instead do we see all over the Bible such passages as this one and others that warn against worshiping false Gods (Deuteronomy 32:17 “They sacrificed to false Gods, gods they had not known”; emphasis mine), and setting up other things as God (Matthew’s warning about God and Mammon), and so forth? Why is the Bible so filled with such things if they are precluded from being a reality, because any worship of something you call “God” is worship of the true God? Has Our God wasted His words? Did He just not understand things in as sophisticated manner as modern man does? Which one of you will attempt to reform Him?
It seems to me you are consistently trying to draw conclusions from what people are saying that they are not in fact asserting.

I haven’t seen anyone suggest that worshiping in a non-Christian religion isn’t at least less useful than worshiping as a Christian, and that it would generally be a real limit and problem. No one is trying to draw the conclusion that another religion is just as good a path to God as Christianity, or there is no need for mission work.

The statement -" Islam worships God, really" or however you want to put is, is simply that. A statement like “apples are fruit”. It is not a matter of trying to prove something. Usually if it comes up it is in response to fundamentalists, who I would suggest have an agenda that is as hostile to catholicity or orthodoxy as Islam is.

Practically speaking I think your Coptic priest is right in principle. A person worshiping spirits, or in a polytheistic religion, or even a businessman who worships power and money; they are all in a way worshiping a kind of reflection of the Divine attributes, but we would not say they are really worshiping God. I would say they are looking for God, but are essentially idolaters.

But throughout the history of Christianity, those who worship a monotheistic God have pretty universally been understood to be worshiping the real God. I do have some experience reading patristic texts for my degree, not as much as Contarini, but I would say that is pretty consistently where the line is drawn.

Of course almost all, if not all, of these groups mix their worship with idolatry, but that is also true of many Christian groups. We don’t go around saying that those who preach the prosperity gospel are not worshiping the true God though. So that is really where I would disagree with the priest. (And actually, he might be consistent here, as far as I know the Cops won’t even let their members marry outside the Coptic Church. Perhaps he would say non-Copts were idolaters too.)

I am not sure where you are going with the story f the Samaritan women. It does not seem to me to support the idea that members of other groups are idolaters.
 
I haven’t seen anyone suggest that worshiping in a non-Christian religion isn’t at least less useful than worshiping as a Christian
Who is discussing “usefulness”? (In quotes because I don’t know what that means in the context of this conversation. My atheist friends would probably say that worshiping any god in any fashion is the least useful thing possible, and they think they have the worldly success to prove it.)
No one is trying to draw the conclusion that another religion is just as good a path to God as Christianity, or there is no need for mission work.
You are misunderstanding my use of the term “as good”. Admittedly it’s not the best way to put this, but I can’t think of a more succinct way to describe the attitude I’m seeing here. It seems to me that those among us who argue that Islam worships the true God are in effect saying that while Christian prayer may be “better” (arghhh…) or more “useful” (double arghhh…), or clearer (with reference to the oft-repeated idea that non-Christians worship God, but just don’t see Him “clearly”), but separate from any value judgment it is objectively true that as there is only one God to begin with all prayers directed at something that worshipers call “God” are prayers to the true God, at least theoretically. That is the attitude I am trying to describe. It’s “as good” in the sense of being “six of one, a half dozen of the other”, as the saying goes. If this is not the point you are making, then please correct me.
Practically speaking I think your Coptic priest is right in principle. A person worshiping spirits, or in a polytheistic religion, or even a businessman who worships power and money; they are all in a way worshiping a kind of reflection of the Divine attributes, but we would not say they are really worshiping God. I would say they are looking for God, but are essentially idolaters.
And this is what I would say about Islam. I have never said and would never say that Muslims are not sincerely looking for God. But they won’t find Him in Islam, that’s for sure. What’s that line from Rumi, “I looked for God among the Christians, but I didn’t find Him there”? He didn’t look hard enough! And Muslims today aren’t looking hard enough. They are content with their false religion that denies the true God in favor of a false recension of God, manipulated at the hands of Muhammad.
But throughout the history of Christianity, those who worship a monotheistic God have pretty universally been understood to be worshiping the real God. I do have some experience reading patristic texts for my degree, not as much as Contarini, but I would say that is pretty consistently where the line is drawn.
Like Mickey and others, I would also refer to the writings of Christian saints like St. John Chrysostom and St. Theophanes the Confessor to substantiate the historical reality of Christian resistance to the claims of Islam. This is one area in which I am actually more than willing to concede some ground, but only as much as is necessary to put Islam in its proper historical context. From the readings that I’ve done, it seems obvious that the early belief, prevalent among the Syriac Christians and others who first encountered Islam, that Islam is in fact a form of Christian heresy rather than a separate religion probably colored early Christian responses to Islamic theological claims more so than anything else. So it is possible to marshal evidence from history to support either position. I just happen to believe mine is correct and yours is not. And unlike you apparently want to do, I don’t present the evidence I have as though it is “pretty consistently” one way or another (I would add, however, that we are more than likely actually looking at different periods of time and that this perhaps strengthens my argument while weakening yours. You can look back into history prior to Islam, when Christians primarily evangelized pagans, Jews, and others, and find many witnesses that you’ll say substantiate your claim; However, when we begin to see writers tackling Islam specifically, then we see opinions of a different sort. Nicetas of Byzantium wrote a book against Islam which can apparently be summed up as advancing the view that “In short, Muhammad was an ignorant charlatan who succeeded by imposture in seducing the ignorant barbarian Arabs into accepting a gross, blaspheming, idolatrous, demoniac religion, which is full of futile errors, intellectual enormities, doctrinal errors and moral aberrations.”)
 
Of course almost all, if not all, of these groups mix their worship with idolatry, but that is also true of many Christian groups.
What? No Christian group mixes their worship with idolatry. Just what do you think Christianity is? :confused: Whenever a self-professed “Christian” individual or group does this, they put themselves outside of Christianity.
We don’t go around saying that those who preach the prosperity gospel are not worshiping the true God though.
I would. You cannot serve both God and Mammon. By making the Gospel about prosperity and not about salvation, they are mutilating the Word of God.
And actually, he might be consistent here, as far as I know the Cops won’t even let their members marry outside the Coptic Church. Perhaps he would say non-Copts were idolaters too.
Copts cannot marry outside of their communion, e.g. Coptic, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Indian, etc. I know a Copt who is married to an Ethiopian. It’s fine.
I am not sure where you are going with the story f the Samaritan women. It does not seem to me to support the idea that members of other groups are idolaters.
That worshiping God in spirit and in truth is all that is acceptable. Since non-Christians do not worship God in truth, it matters little that “idolater” is not used. In light of what is said about Christ-denying spirits in other passages (“every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the Anti-Christ”), your refusal to call a spade a spade does your position no favors. In fact, it reminds me more than a little bit of those non-Christians (Muslims, primarily) who refuse to believe in Christ’s divinity because the Holy Bible does not record Him saying the exact sentence “I am God”. If everything He does say and do gives credit towards His divinity, then we Christians simply call Him as we see Him. Conversely, those belief systems that are built on something other than the acceptance of the truth of God (Christ, the Incarnate Word) ought to be described as such, and no allowance should be made for their errors. “Tolerance is for the erring, intolerance for the error”, right? That’s a pretty solidly “Catholic” principle, I thought. (Fulton J. Sheen was not a “fundamentalist”, I hope you’ll agree.)
 
please Erwin, Tomarin, et. al., give me the brunt of whatever it is you have. Start a new thread about it, if you wish. I’ll post in it. I promise. We can continue this argument for however long you’d like. It is a debt I will attempt to pay to the Orthodox who are teaching me. Leave this thread to be about Islam.
Dear Dzheremi, I should probably just bite my tongue because I don’t have any wish to antagonize you further but since you mention me by name in this post I feel I should respond: I would gladly cease mentioning the Jews (or any other Trinity-denying monotheist group for that matter) if only you gave some indication that you understood why the Jews are relevant to this discussion. So far you haven’t done that.

All I can say is I’m not so much interested in hitting you over the head with anything as I am in getting a simple idea across. Which is that it’s not consistent to exclude one Trinity-denying monotheist group from worshipping the true God and not exclude other Trinity-denying monotheist groups. I think one can subscribe to this idea and not have any particularly tender feelings toward Islam.

Peace and blessings.
 
Dear Dzheremi, I should probably just bite my tongue because I don’t have any wish to antagonize you further but since you mention me by name in this post I feel I should respond: I would gladly cease mentioning the Jews (or any other Trinity-denying monotheist group for that matter) if only you gave some indication that you understood why the Jews are relevant to this discussion. So far you haven’t done that.
Did you read the rest of the post that you are quoting? I know I’m biased, but I think I gave a fairly clear account of the Orthodox position regarding the place of the Jews vis-a-vis Christianity, at least in as far as I understand what has been explained to me by actual Orthodox people (since I am not one of them, it is likely that I have misunderstood them on some particular aspect, but not gravely so or else I imagine they would have corrected me).
All I can say is I’m not so much interested in hitting you over the head with anything as I am in getting a simple idea across. Which is that it’s not consistent to exclude one Trinity-denying monotheist group from worshipping the true God and not exclude other Trinity-denying monotheist groups. I think one can subscribe to this idea and not have any particularly tender feelings toward Islam.
Re: “excluding one Trinity-denying group and not the other” – have I done anything of the sort in the post you are replying to, or any subsequent post? I don’t think I have. Not to be a jerk about it, but I did preface the post you’ve quoted with the words “with regard to the Jews”, so I don’t know how you can claim I’m being inconsistent. The Jews and the Muslims share a common error in their rejection of Christ. They are entirely consistent in this aspect of their religions, so I must be entirely consistent in finding them both in error. I was unable to do so previously because I was still trying to hold on to Catholic ideas about the worship of the one true God somehow encompassing every possible belief system. I do not think that this is true, and as a consequence some of my ideas regarding the proper worship of God have changed and undoubtedly seem more strict. I don’t know what else to say other than that I was clearly on my way there anyway, and it feels good not to have to bite my tongue before God as well as man. 🤷
 
You are misunderstanding my use of the term “as good”. Admittedly it’s not the best way to put this, but I can’t think of a more succinct way to describe the attitude I’m seeing here. It seems to me that those among us who argue that Islam worships the true God are in effect saying that while Christian prayer may be “better” (arghhh…) or more “useful” (double arghhh…), or clearer (with reference to the oft-repeated idea that non-Christians worship God, but just don’t see Him “clearly”), but separate from any value judgment it is objectively true that as there is only one God to begin with all prayers directed at something that worshipers call “God” are prayers to the true God, at least theoretically. That is the attitude I am trying to describe. It’s “as good” in the sense of being “six of one, a half dozen of the other”, as the saying goes. If this is not the point you are making, then please correct me.
I don’t see how this follows. By saying that non-Christian knowledge of God isn’t as clear and is highly imperfect by virtue of not acknowledging the essential reality of the Trinity, we are clearly saying that it’s not “as good.” I don’t see how you get this from what we are saying, except that you are so locked into an “either/or” attitude that you can’t possibly conceive of anyone seeing things differently.

God is Trinity. Period. There’s no disagreement about that. There’s no way that language about God (or prayer to God) failing to acknowledge God’s Trinitarian nature can be “as good as” (in the sense of having the same intrinsic truth) as language about/prayer to God that acknowledges who God has revealed Himself to be.

But God accepts our prayers because of who He is, not because of the perfection of our knowledge. If a Muslim or Jew or Hindu rejects the Trinity out of pride and stubbornness, then they cannot truly worship God. But if they are humbly offering their prayers to God insofar as they understand Him, then there is every reason to believe that God accepts their prayers. However, that’s a separate issue from the linguistic question I’ve been arguing.
Like Mickey and others, I would also refer to the writings of Christian saints like St. John Chrysostom and St. Theophanes the Confessor to substantiate the historical reality of Christian resistance to the claims of Islam.
What does John Chrysostom have to do with Islam?

What did St. Theophanes have to say about it?

And what does a general “resistance to the claims of Islam” have to do with the question of whether Islamic language about God refers imperfectly to the true God or not?

Mickey has cited St. John Chrysostom. Do you see St. John saying in the passage Mickey cited that when Muslims say “Allah” they are speaking of a false god? Don’t you in fact (if you look at the broader passage and not just the bit Mickey chose to select) see him using the word “God” univocally for the Christian and Islamic concepts of God? Don’t you in fact see him accusing Muslims of carrying over idolatrous practices from the time when they worshiped false gods, rather than saying that they still do so?

That’s the only passage Mickey or anyone else has cited from the Fathers, which speaks volumes for the weakness of your case.
This is one area in which I am actually more than willing to concede some ground, but only as much as is necessary to put Islam in its proper historical context. From the readings that I’ve done, it seems obvious that the early belief, prevalent among the Syriac Christians and others who first encountered Islam, that Islam is in fact a form of Christian heresy rather than a separate religion probably colored early Christian responses to Islamic theological claims more so than anything else.
Yes, and I think that was a good approach on the whole. That doesn’t automatically settle the question of whether Muslims worship the true God or not. Mormons are a Christian heresy for sure, and I think a case can be made that they don’t worship the true God (I hesitate to say flatly that they worship a false god, because the early Hebrews seem to have understood YHWH to be a limited being with a physical body as well–but I would say that the Mormon concept of God is less recognizable by orthodox Christian standards than the Islamic, and is closer to the Islamic caricature of the Christian concept of God!).
So it is possible to marshal evidence from history to support either position.
Then why haven’t we seen any evidence to support your position yet? Why is a passage that uses the word “God” univocally for Christian and Muslim concepts, and speaks of the Muslims having worshiped pagan gods in the past rather than claiming that they still do so, the best your side can offer?
I just happen to believe mine is correct and yours is not.
You “happen” to believe? Why not believe according to the evidence?
And unlike you apparently want to do, I don’t present the evidence I have as though it is “pretty consistently” one way or another

I do, because I have yet to see a counterexample from the time of St. John of Damascus or earlier (you have put me onto one later counterexample below).
 
(I would add, however, that we are more than likely actually looking at different periods of time and that this perhaps strengthens my argument while weakening yours. You can look back into history prior to Islam, when Christians primarily evangelized pagans, Jews, and others, and find many witnesses that you’ll say substantiate your claim;
Yes, but the question is how you can possibly maintain that the Supreme Deity of the pagans is the true God while the Islamic “Allah” is not. That’s why I have pointed to Christians who wrote before the rise of Islam. Writers like St. John of Damascus are assuming that legacy, which is why St. John speaks of God univocally with regard to Christian and Islamic concepts, without seeing any need to ask the question of whether Muslims worship the true God.
However, when we begin to see writers tackling Islam specifically, then we see opinions of a different sort.
Not in John of Damascus.
Nicetas of Byzantium wrote a book against Islam which can apparently be summed up as advancing the view that “In short, Muhammad was an ignorant charlatan who succeeded by imposture in seducing the ignorant barbarian Arabs into accepting a gross, blaspheming, idolatrous, demoniac religion, which is full of futile errors, intellectual enormities, doctrinal errors and moral aberrations.”)
In itself, this does not necessarily constitute a claim that Muslims are referring to a false god when they speak of “Allah.” After all, early Christians condemned paganism as idolatrous while recognizing that the supreme deity of pagans (who was not generally the direct object of pagan worship) was the true God.

However, your reference to St. Nicetas caused me to Google him, which led me eventually to a discussion of the twelfth-century controversy between Manuel I and the bishops over the “God of Muhammad.” I will give a bibliography at the end of my post–the occasional citations in what follows refer to the sources found there.

Apparently the rite of abjuration required of converts from Islam had come to include a phrase abjuring the “God of Muhammad who is made of beaten metal.” This rite is variously dated, including as early as the eighth century by some, though others put it later–about the mid-9th century seems to be the most common view.

The idea that the Qur’an describes God as made of beaten metal apparently comes from Theodore abu-Qurra as interpreted polemically by St. Nicetas (Hanson, 63). Scholars seem agreed that this is a mistranslation of the word “samad” from the Qur’an, which is more usually translated “eternal” and has the connotation of “firm, permanent.” In other words, Byzantine theologians erroneously claimed that Muslims believed that God was material, and on this they based their condemnation of the “God of Muhammad.” The same passage in the Qur’an that contains the word “samad” also speaks of God not begetting or being begotten, so this passage came to represent the false Islamic concept of God as a whole. It appears to me, however, from the sources I cite below, that the supposed materiality of God was the decisive factor.

In the 12th century, Manuel I ordered that the phrase anathematizing the “God of Muhammad” be removed from the rite of abjuration. Emperor Manuel insisted that this phrase anathematized the Christian God, who was the same as the God spoken of by Muhammad. He also seems to have understood that the Qur’an was being mistranslated and that Muslims did not believe in a material God. This was met with horror by many of the bishops, who accused him of violating the traditional view of Islam (this is in your favor). Craig Hanson argues that they were mistaken on this point, and that Manuel was in fact continuing or returning to a traditional approach. At any rate, Manuel won and the phrase was deleted from the abjuration.

Finally, Daniel Sahas argues (pp. 75-76) that John of Damascus not only did not have the faulty translation of “samad” used later by Nicetas, but also tacitly accepted the characterization of God as one who neither begets nor is begotten as correct if properly understood. Sahas clearly believes that John accepted the Islamic God as the true God, agreeing with me over Mickey!

**Sources:
**Craig L. Hanson, “Manuel I Comnenus and the ‘God of Mohammed,’” in *Medieval Christian Perspectives on Islam, *ed. John Victor Tolan (Routledge, 1996, 2000), 55-76.

J. M. Hussey, The Orthodox Church in the Byzantine Empire (1986; reprinted with foreword and bibliographical supplement by Andrew Louth, Oxford 2010), pp. 153-54.

John Meyendorff, The Byzantine Legacy in the Orthodox Church (St. Valdimir’s Seminary Press, 1982, 2001), pp. 89-114, esp. 100-101 (on Nicetas).

Daniel J. Sahas, John of Damascus on Islam: The “Heresy of the Ishmaelites” (Brill, 1972).

David Thomas and Barbara Roggema, *Christian-Muslim Relations, a Bibliographical History *(Brill, 2009), vol. 1, p. 95 (dating the rite of abjuration to the 9th cent.)

I found all these sources on Google Books.

Thanks for bringing up Nicetas and giving me the occasion to learn quite a bit!

God bless,

Edwin
 
Did you read the rest of the post that you are quoting? I know I’m biased, but I think I gave a fairly clear account of the Orthodox position regarding the place of the Jews vis-a-vis Christianity, at least in as far as I understand what has been explained to me by actual Orthodox people (since I am not one of them, it is likely that I have misunderstood them on some particular aspect, but not gravely so or else I imagine they would have corrected me).
I read it but I will need to read it again, obviously.
Re: “excluding one Trinity-denying group and not the other” – have I done anything of the sort in the post you are replying to, or any subsequent post?
Er, I guess I mistakenly thought that you were reluctant to discuss whether the Jews worship the true God? In fairness to me, you created that impression by asking posters not to discuss the Jews in a thread about Muslims, as if the one case was completely irrelevant to the other. But if I was mistaken about that, I was mistaken and I owe you an apology. You are not being inconsistent.

I don’t think you’re a jerk either, by the way, not by a long shot. 🙂
 
I heard that the protesters were (and are) non-violent; rather, it has been police and folks from the regime who were doing the looting and responsible for the violence. Hospitals were told not to report deaths from bullets. And I did hear that Christians were out in force too–some even protecting Muslims while they were praying in the streets.
 
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