How SHOULD Health Care Work?

[boppaid]

You people would make excellent government bureaucrats.

Here’s how “health care” should “work”:

Completely eliminate ALL government programmes, regulations, etc.; federal, state, and local. Eliminate them ALL.

Let the “free market” take over “health care”? NO, that’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m insisting that the Church be given back it’s right to heal people. Get the government out, and the Church will move in.

Who would you rather be your doctor? An employee of the government, or an employee of the Church?

What would the people who are not part of the Church do?

 

[boppaid]

Sick people footing the bill for their expenses actually does seem just and right to me. They are the ones using the services. When I get sick and use the emergency department (or any medical services for that matter), I pay for them.

I think that is wonderful. But what about those who do not have the money to pay for them? Are they just out of luck?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Hi Mary Bobo:

My wife also has had her medical problems, which I won’t go into, but she is very satisfied with the quality of health care here in Ontario, Canada. Again, it cost her nothing.

A lot depends also on the hospital you choose to have surgery in. Some are better than others. For example, Sunnybrook is - in my opinion - the best in the Toronto region. You have only got to listen to the news about auto accidents on Highway 401 to know that, or to hear about some person shooting someone or stabbing someone in one of our Jane/Finch housing complexes . ( Unfortunately we have a Crips gang up there) Every one of the hard-cases is taken to Sunnybrook, by ambulance of helicopter. It is the hospital of choice, and they have lots of experience with death-door cases.

And Vern. People are flocking to Canada as they are to the USA, we have more than our share of illegal immigrants. North America with all its faults is the continent of choice - and it has nothing to do with health care.

But Canadian doctors are flocking to the US – and that has a lot to do with Canadian health care.

 

[mary_bobo]

Hi Mary Bobo:

My wife also has had her medical problems, which I won’t go into, but she is very satisfied with the quality of health care here in Ontario, Canada. Again, it cost her nothing.

COLOR=“RoyalBlue”]I am happy that you are pleased with the care your wife received. It is important that one have confidence in the system. But I respectfully disagree with it costing nothing. Just because you do not have to come up with funds out of pocket does not mean that somewhere along the line you are indeed paying for the care.

A lot depends also on the hospital you choose to have surgery in. Some are better than others. For example, Sunnybrook is - in my opinion - the best in the Toronto region. You have only got to listen to the news about auto accidents on Highway 401 to know that, or to hear about some person shooting someone or stabbing someone in one of our Jane/Finch housing complexes . ( Unfortunately we have a Crips gang up there) Every one of the hard-cases is taken to Sunnybrook, by ambulance of helicopter. It is the hospital of choice, and they have lots of experience with death-door cases.

I went to the hospital in Etobicoke (?) and it was an emergency. I did not have much say in the matter. The difficulty I ran into was that the doctor I originally saw (recommended by a nurse-neighbor) misdiagnosed my problem even though I kept telling him I thought he was wrong. By the time I finally convinced him to send me to a specialist, I had a grapefruit sized abscess in my abdomen (from diverticulitis) and by the time I got to surgery (48 hours) it was seeping and I had peritonitis. And complete blood test would have established that my white count was through the roof, but none was ever done. The room I was in had four people and it was not air conditioned. It was August and I had a temp of 105 and was delirious. If my husband had not raised the roof, I think I would have stayed there.

And Vern. People are flocking to Canada as they are to the USA, we have more than our share of illegal immigrants. North America with all its faults is the continent of choice - and it has nothing to do with health care.

I think you may be right here. And please understand that I am not criticizing Canada. If the system works for you, that is good. It is just not the kind of care I have come to expect. One other thing, we have good insurance and I offered the forms to the many doctors who cared for me while I was there. They just smiled and said it was free because my husband was sent there to work for the Canadian branch of his company and we went covered by OHIP. With all due respect, it does not make sense to me that the Canadian government would pay my medical bills when I was not a citizen and had a way to pay for myself. Does not seem cost effective to me–and somebody paid for that.

 

[DrPiano]

I think that is wonderful. But what about those who do not have the money to pay for them? Are they just out of luck?

Boppaid,

Please read ALL of my posts on this thread. I have outlined my own version of a plan to fix our uninsured problem. That quote was specifically addressing a comment by Vern. Thanks!

 

[emily47017]

The fact that it became public knowledge that they were letting people did and lying about it.

i thought that might be the case, and hey, you know what? the fact that the public was able to get the policy changed is a direct result of the health care system being accountable to the public. private health insurance is accountable only to shareholders.

One cite was post #68.

thanks! so you had said that almost 2/3 of new doctors were from muslim countries. the quote from your citation was: “Over two-thirds of doctors registering to practice in the UK in 2003 were from overseas – the vast majority from non-European countries.” so actually we don’t know what percentage are from muslim countries, just that a “vast majority” of 2/3 aren’t from europe. i’d be interested to see how many are from the US, for example. probably not a lot… cuba? argentina? taiwan? india?

Get packed – I’ll drive you.

yahoo! i was disappointed to see that www.hookacanuck.com wasn’t up yet…

 

[vern_humphrey]

i thought that might be the case, and hey, you know what? the fact that the public was able to get the policy changed is a direct result of the health care system being accountable to the public. private health insurance is accountable only to shareholders.

Ah – and did that bring back to life all those who died for lack of dialysis?

thanks! so you had said that almost 2/3 of new doctors were from muslim countries. the quote from your citation was: “Over two-thirds of doctors registering to practice in the UK in 2003 were from overseas – the vast majority from non-European countries.” so actually we don’t know what percentage are from muslim countries, just that a “vast majority” of 2/3 aren’t from europe. i’d be interested to see how many are from the US, for example. probably not a lot… cuba? argentina? taiwan? india?

I don’t recall making an issue of Muslims – I said about 2/3s of new doctors in England are from other countries.

yahoo! i was disappointed to see that www.hookacanuck.com wasn’t up yet…

Meet me at Hardy’s in Mountain View at noon tomorrow and we’ll be on our way.

 

[emily47017]

The difficulty I ran into was that the doctor I originally saw (recommended by a nurse-neighbor) misdiagnosed my problem even though I kept telling him I thought he was wrong.

mary, that’s horrible! it’s really similar to what happened to a friend of mine here in the states; she saw a doctor for some pain and fever, and he pooh-poohed it. she went back a couple times, and never really got anywhere. finally she collapsed, was taken to the ER and diagnosed with an infection that had spread to her brain. she almost died, too. they took out a decent hunk of her frontal lobe… she was in recovery for about six months, and still isn’t quite “right”.

 

[emily47017]

Ah – and did that bring back to life all those who died for lack of dialysis?

who’s going to bring back all the people who died due to private insurance denials? and who’s going to get those policies changed to prevent more deaths in the future?

I don’t recall making an issue of Muslims – I said about 2/3s of new doctors in England are from other countries.

it’s post #66: “Almost 2/3s of new doctors in Britain are from Muslim countries.” maybe that was a typo?

Meet me at Hardy’s in Mountain View at noon tomorrow and we’ll be on our way.

dang! i have a doctor’s appointment tomorrow! thank goodness for medicaid…

 

[jman507]

If everything is covered, then we’re going to be shelling out big buicks for tummy-tucks, breast enlargmements, sex-change operations and so on. And, if we don’t like that – we have to pay anyway!!

Is that really what we want?

Well, I guess from what Emily was proposing that is not the case, granted I’m sure their will be lots of debate when it comes the necessity of abortions and sex changes. Nevertheless, if that’s taken out of the picture, what will be considered basic standard protocol, will always tend to want to add more and more grey areas.

New procedures are always added. They can start out expensive, but as they become widespread tend to become cheaper. So it is hard to come to decisions about what new expensive procedures may be worth exploring.

The question is how will the break be applied to spending to keep it under control. I am sure that doctors who are outliers and spend way too much will be corrected, but what about general trends to want to spend more?

It’s a hard to say no to spending, but as the percentage of GDP goes to health care, that means other percenatages will have to drop. Health care isn’t exactly the most value added investment, but the money is spent because of the values we have tied treating people. Granted there is some economic benifit to getting people back to work in society at large, but I still think the ROI is lost by the time we end up spending what we spend and ends up a net loss. After all, I don’t think anyone would be happy with a health care system, that just works to get people back to work, otherwise your better off dead.

That said, where do you want the cuts to go? Education? Defense? Law enforcement? Infastructure and business? Non-medical, health and human services? You might have your favorites, but things work in a balance, neglict one enough you might be saying “jinga,” as the other systems collapse.

 

[Kaninchen]

Overseas doctors are actually a form of exploitation - a ‘brain-drain’. Partly it’s a matter of overseas students choosing to remain in the country where they’ve studied rather than going home to work in the country that paid to educate them and partly it’s because ‘converting’ foreign qualifications of qualified doctors to host country qualifications costs a very small fraction of the years of training costs of home students.

It’s capitalism at its best, really. Pretty deadly for the countries of origin, of course.

 

[Stolen_Rutters]

1. Universal preventive coverage access for everyone, regardless of income or employment.
2. Catastrophic subsidy for those unable to pay.
3. Beyond this minimum, an insurance setup similar to what we have today. Employer based unless you are a child or retired. Then medicaid/medicare system will cover you.

Some changes, though. Less paperwork (yes, I know this is a intentional dis-incentive for payment to improve insurance company profits, but c’mon, it’s too much). More emphasis on preventive care.

 

[Pondero]

Hi Mary Bobo:

I think I know which of the two hospitals you were in, either Etobicoke General or the Queensway ( now a re-hab centre called the Trillium). One has or had a better reputation than the other. It is because you were a resident of Ontario that you could obtain OHIP. I don’t mind the taxes I pay for health care under the existing law.

The main issue here is that many people in the USA are uninsured and no-one or nothing covers them. These people have to pay for through the nose, selling their houses in order to have surgery. In Canada this is not the case as Ontario government OHIP covers all residents. It is similar in other provinces.You can argue the rights of individuals to private health care and getting what you pay for until the cows come home ( you are not doing that MaryBobo but others are) but these are philosophical matters. If I were very poor,and lived in the USA, and didn’t have insurance I would opt for the Canadian system. Already there are 300,000 red health cards ( which don’t have photos on them- the new blue ones do) issued by the Government of Ontario for health coverage more than there are people here I have one of them , but mine is genuine I used it this morning at the Trillium and it passed scrutiny

As, I said, I don’t mind overpaying in taxes to help those who can’t afford health care here, or who are illegal immigrants. But, I would like our Provincial government to get its own house in order eventually. Meanwhile as a Christian I would err on the side of giving too much in taxes - or to as Fr. Benedict Groeschel CFR, said on TV last night to giving money to those who appear homeless ( even though they may be faking, or about to spend what you give on booze or drugs).

Now, it may be that your medical care ( if you can afford it) is better than ours, I frankly don’t know. What you said about the doctor in the hospital not doing a white blood count rings a bell, it happened once to someone dear to me in a small Toronto hospital and perintonitus developed and a lung collapsed. I admit we have faults.Fortunately, they eventually fully recovered.

 

[vern_humphrey]

who’s going to bring back all the people who died due to private insurance denials? and who’s going to get those policies changed to prevent more deaths in the future?

How many people were denied dialysis by private companoies?

it’s post #66: “Almost 2/3s of new doctors in Britain are from Muslim countries.” maybe that was a typo?

No, that’s quoted excerpt from the cited article. I never stressed (or cared) where the foreign doctors came from – meerly that they did not come from Britain.

dang! i have a doctor’s appointment tomorrow! thank goodness for medicaid…

Don’t forget to say thank you to the rest of us who are paying for it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Well, I guess from what Emily was proposing that is not the case, granted I’m sure their will be lots of debate when it comes the necessity of abortions and sex changes. Nevertheless, if that’s taken out of the picture, what will be considered basic standard protocol, will always tend to want to add more and more grey areas.

It’s kind of like arguing with Marxists – you point out to them that every nation that has adopted Marxism has become a brutal totalitarial dictatorship, and they say, “Well, that’s not** real** Marxism.”

Yes, it is – totally centralized power is essential to Marxism, and totall centralized power always leads to a brutal totalitarial dictatorship.

And an expansion of benefits to cover abortion, sterilization, sex-change operations, and so on is inherent in this system.

And you know what? Those procedures have a powerful political cadre behind them – so money will be drained from other, less “glamourous” procedures.

New procedures are always added. They can start out expensive, but as they become widespread tend to become cheaper. So it is hard to come to decisions about what new expensive procedures may be worth exploring.

But they don’t become cheap** enough** – which is one reason why the cost of medical care is rising.

The question is how will the break be applied to spending to keep it under control. I am sure that doctors who are outliers and spend way too much will be corrected, but what about general trends to want to spend more?

We may do as the British, and simply cut some people off. We may stretch out the waiting period, and generate savings from those who die. We may cut doctor’s pay – and drive doctors and other medical personnel out of business. We may simply not pay for new, advanced treatments.

None of these are good options.

It’s a hard to say no to spending, but as the percentage of GDP goes to health care, that means other percenatages will have to drop. Health care isn’t exactly the most value added investment, but the money is spent because of the values we have tied treating people. Granted there is some economic benifit to getting people back to work in society at large, but I still think the ROI is lost by the time we end up spending what we spend and ends up a net loss. After all, I don’t think anyone would be happy with a health care system, that just works to get people back to work, otherwise your better off dead.

That said, where do you want the cuts to go? Education? Defense? Law enforcement? Infastructure and business? Non-medical, health and human services? You might have your favorites, but things work in a balance, neglict one enough you might be saying “jinga,” as the other systems collapse.

Yep – as I said, we’ll get the double-whammy, with a monopsony on one end, choking out doctors, new drugs and procedures, and a monopoly on the other – leaving the consumer with a “take it or leave it system” and no alternative.

 

[manualman]

Since anecdotes have become part of the equation, I’ll add my family’s experience with socialized medicine.

In 1996, My (the future) father in law was in a bad car accident in Wales (UK). They did a decent job of trauma care, but he languished in a hospital there for a month with persistant infection symptoms that refused to go away. My future wife (who works in a US hospital) finally went ballistic and whined, begged and pleaded American Airlines into accepting him into business class in spite of his marginally stable condition. He was met at the gate by wheelchair, transported to a US hospital by ambulance and admitted along with a copy of his charts from the Brit hospital. His US doctor scanned his history and immediately ordered an MRI (fuzzy memory, but I THINK it was MRI) to look closer at an injured portion of his spine. Found the infection INSIDE the spine, gave it localized high potency antibiotics and he made dramatic improvements within a few days.

The doctor told him later that he was very lucky not to be paralyzed. Just a few more days and he probably would have suffered permanent damage. During their time in Wales, my MIL made friends among the nurses. She later contacted one and asked if they knew why no MRI had ever been done. Turns out there is a VERY rigid criteria of ‘needs’ for MRI and that my FIL hadn’t ‘met the requirements’ to warrant one.

Reading between the lines, that means the darn thing is expensive and they ration how many people can have access to it. I have no desire to see such policies come to this country!!!

In fairness, the UK never charged them a dime for the care they did receive. A month in a hospital (even an incompetent one) isn’t cheap!

 

[mary_bobo]

mary, that’s horrible! it’s really similar to what happened to a friend of mine here in the states; she saw a doctor for some pain and fever, and he pooh-poohed it. she went back a couple times, and never really got anywhere. finally she collapsed, was taken to the ER and diagnosed with an infection that had spread to her brain. she almost died, too. they took out a decent hunk of her frontal lobe… she was in recovery for about six months, and still isn’t quite “right”.

How sad. I know it happens everywhere from time to time. We all have to learn to be demanding consumers. In this country we can usually, note I said USUALLY, do that. Single payer systems can’t.

 

[mary_bobo]

Hi Mary Bobo:

I think I know which of the two hospitals you were in, either Etobicoke General or the Queensway ( now a re-hab centre called the Trillium). One has or had a better reputation than the other. It is because you were a resident of Ontario that you could obtain OHIP. I don’t mind the taxes I pay for health care under the existing law.

I understand. My point was that I did not need it and thought it should not have been done.

The main issue here is that many people in the USA are uninsured and no-one or nothing covers them. These people have to pay for through the nose, selling their houses in order to have surgery.

This is only partially true. If a person presents at an Emergency Room and needs care quickly, the hospital may not turn them away. I certainly would not be in favor of turning anyone in such a condition away, and it is against the law to do so. And there are many free clinics that offer care to those who need it and have no insurance. Is it perfect? Certainly not, but it is not the bleak picture that is painted by others. There are even drug companies that will provide medicine for those who need it and cannot afford it. But it is not an automatic thing./COLOR]

In Canada this is not the case as Ontario government OHIP covers all residents. It is similar in other provinces.You can argue the rights of individuals to private health care and getting what you pay for until the cows come home ( you are not doing that MaryBobo but others are) but these are philosophical matters. If I were very poor,and lived in the USA, and didn’t have insurance I would opt for the Canadian system. Already there are 300,000 red health cards ( which don’t have photos on them- the new blue ones do) issued by the Government of Ontario for health coverage more than there are people here I have one of them , but mine is genuine I used it this morning at the Trillium and it passed scrutiny

As, I said, I don’t mind overpaying in taxes to help those who can’t afford health care here, or who are illegal immigrants. But, I would like our Provincial government to get its own house in order eventually. Meanwhile as a Christian I would err on the side of giving too much in taxes - or to as Fr. Benedict Groeschel CFR, said on TV last night to giving money to those who appear homeless ( even though they may be faking, or about to spend what you give on booze or drugs).

We all should help those who cannot help themselves, but I get a little queasy when it come to taking care of all the illegal aliens in our country. The number is overwhelming and our social services programs are in dire need of help and none of our politicians have the guts to do it. And we do pay for medical care for those who cannot afford it. The patients who can pay are paying much higher fees in order to help those who cannot help themselves. It’s not perfect, but it is not as bad as some may think.

Now, it may be that your medical care ( if you can afford it) is better than ours, I frankly don’t know. What you said about the doctor in the hospital not doing a white blood count rings a bell, it happened once to someone dear to me in a small Toronto hospital and perintonitus developed and a lung collapsed. I admit we have faults.Fortunately, they eventually fully recovered.

That’s good to hear, the recovery I mean. My situation was that the primary doctor, the one I saw twice in his office, did not do the blood count. I learned that these physicians are paid a set amount for an office visit and anything in the way of tests must be paid for out of that set amount. I can only presume that was the reason it was not done.

Finally, I think we all tend to appreciate what we have and what is the system in the area where we live. It is nice that both of us are happy with the care we receive. God bless you.

 

[vern_humphrey]

How sad. I know it happens everywhere from time to time. We all have to learn to be demanding consumers. In this country we can usually, note I said USUALLY, do that. Single payer systems can’t.

In a single payer system, the most potent quality contol tool is missing, “I’ll take my business elsewhere.”

 

[cynic]

And an expansion of benefits to cover abortion, sterilization, sex-change operations, and so on is inherent in this system.

.

hows that? government refelcts society, that doesn’t mean funding for abortions, euthanasia etc. is inherent in such a system.