How SHOULD Health Care Work?

[vern_humphrey]

This is you itching for a fight:.

No – you tried to pick a fight with me, using words like “bull” and “foolish.” When I wouldn’t rise to the bait, you picked someone else.

 

[Man]

Saint Paul laid it all our for us:

First, we should support ourselves. Who will not work, neither should he eat.

Then we should support our families. And who will not do this is worse than an unbeliever.

Then we should support more distant relatives.

Only when all these fail should the community be responsible for supporting those who cannot support themselves.

And finally, excessive charity has a debilitating effect on those who receive it – as well as draining resources from those who really need it.

This is a much better set of rules here. Do you see how our culture can no longer sustain these rules?

I told you how to determine who not to give charity to. I also said that they should work.

This is far different than the philosophy that proceeded it.

I am an engineer. Why is it so much more lucrative to work in the weapons industry than the food industry?

We need safe food more, but weapons pay better. Aerospace pays better. The reason is that these industries make more profitable products and are therefore “more worthy” with the traditional American philosophy.

Paul lived in an agrarian society. One could work and get most of what they needed no problem. Now, the entire system of companies and organizations is highly biased.

I am not looking for an eclipsing change in the system. And, while the bias serves a purpose, it also leads people who have had success into pompousness. Pompousness both in their success and in their consumption.

I’d rather talk to Warren Buffet. At least he realizes that if he had been born in India his natural attributes would have amounted to squat. Instead I’m talking to you, gifted by God and grateful to yourself.

You should at least be grateful the tax system which keeps the peace in this country. That includes the health care system.

Still, I’m grateful you served in the armed forces. This is a fine place to find opportunity when there is not.

The last thing I need is someone whose “maximizing” themselves included money to tell people who subsist, though they work, that their value is less.

Paul said a lot of prudent things.

Jesus did as well. You can’t separate the two, but must consider them together. Do you enjoy “dining on sumptuous fare?” And yet outside your gate there are those who never had opportunity.

Paul was a semi-skilled laborer. A tent maker. Good luck making it in the US doing that…

 

[Trader]

I am lost as to what you disagree with me about. It is in matters of economics and ethics. Some people are paid more, a lot more, and not everyone under them thinks that it is fair.

This is you itching for a fight:
"So now those greedy doctors are victims? " (I can hear it in a whine)
Well, I apologize, I didn’t realize that there where no greedy physicians.

You’re right many of them probably found new partially irresponsible specialty hospitals so that they can serve their patients better.

And if I say that this is still at the expense of the rest of the profession, society, and the system at large? Why don’t you ask you family members in the medical profession about that…

It seems to me our major disagreement seems to be about inequality of results and what causes that inequality. I actually believe that the best way to determine the cost of something is through markets where billions of indviduals worldwide determine the price through their choices. You seem to be saying that one particular individual(yourself) can better determine what people should pay and be paid for a particular good or service.

In a country like the USA with so many opportunities, most of the inequality is due to the choices people make. It is well documented that poor people are more likely to be smokers. Do they smoke because they are poor, or are the poor because they make foolish choices like smoking?

There is plenty of evidence that children born to unmarried parents are more likely to live in poverty than children born to married parents. Do people choose to disrepect marriage because they are poor, or are they poor because they(or their parents in the case of children) choose to disrespect marriage?

People who get the education and training to better utilize their talents are going to make more money than those who don’t in a free society. This is a clear signal that people ignore at their own peril. If you have a skill in high demand, like a doctor, you will be well paid.

To make the best use of your talents is not greed. To expect others to provide what you are not willing to pay for and work for is greed.

 

[vern_humphrey]

This is a much better set of rules here. Do you see how our culture can no longer sustain these rules?

No. I see what failure to sustain those rules is doing to our culture. As Ronald Reagan was wont to point out, if you assume everyone below the poverty level has no money at all, and simply give them enough to bring them above the poverty level, that would const only a fraction of what we pour into “poverty programs” – and yet the poor are still poor!

Our poverty programs work very well, though – look at how many poor they create!!

I told you how to determine who not to give charity to. I also said that they should work.

This is far different than the philosophy that proceeded it.

And which inspired writer came up with that?

I am an engineer. Why is it so much more lucrative to work in the weapons industry than the food industry?

What’s that got to do with the subjet of this thread?

We need safe food more, but weapons pay better. Aerospace pays better. The reason is that these industries make more profitable products and are therefore “more worthy” with the traditional American philosophy.

And your point is?

Paul lived in an agrarian society. One could work and get most of what they needed no problem. Now, the entire system of companies and organizations is highly biased.

So you say – but offer no proof.

I am not looking for an eclipsing change in the system. And, while the bias serves a purpose, it also leads people who have had success into pompousness. Pompousness both in their success and in their consumption.

The pomousness most often seen hereabouts is from those who, while not employing anyone themselves, want to tell those who create businesses and jobs how to run them.

I’d rather talk to Warren Buffet. At least he realizes that if he had been born in India his natural attributes would have amounted to squat. Instead I’m talking to you, gifted by God and grateful to yourself.

My, aren’t we nasty today!

You should at least be grateful the tax system which keeps the peace in this country. That includes the health care system.

Is there an English version of that?

Still, I’m grateful you served in the armed forces. This is a fine place to find opportunity when there is not.

The last thing I need is someone whose “maximizing” themselves included money to tell people who subsist, though they work, that their value is less.

Paul said a lot of prudent things.

Jesus did as well. You can’t separate the two, but must consider them together. Do you enjoy “dining on sumptuous fare?” And yet outside your gate there are those who never had opportunity.

How pompous of you to say that.

In fact, I might have a sandwich for lunch – if there’s any bread and lunchmeat left.

Paul was a semi-skilled laborer. A tent maker. Good luck making it in the US doing that…

In fact, he was a skilled worker (ever tried to make a tent?) And I have lots of neighbors who live by their crafts – from pottery to weaving to knife-smithing.

 

[Man]

The problem is rooted in the implementing a culture of health in children. This includes regular doctor visits, precluded by the lack of community support and health insurance and a resistance by the wealthy, the problem increases with time.

And this specifically because these people don’t believe they have a right to health care because the don’t have money.

But, when society says that they have a right, then it must be implemented properly.

Health care is not like a car, and people no longer have a right to go into the wilderness and grow or catch their own food. Everything is owned.

 

[vern_humphrey]

To make the best use of your talents is not greed. To expect others to provide what you are not willing to pay for and work for is greed.

Such a simple concept – amazing how many people just can’t seem to wrap their minds around it.

 

[jman507]

I am lost as to what you disagree with me about. It is in matters of economics and ethics. Some people are paid more, a lot more, and not everyone under them thinks that it is fair.

This is you itching for a fight:
"So now those greedy doctors are victims? " (I can hear it in a whine)
Well, I apologize, I didn’t realize that there where no greedy physicians.

You’re right many of them probably found new partially irresponsible specialty hospitals so that they can serve their patients better.

And if I say that this is still at the expense of the rest of the profession, society, and the system at large? Why don’t you ask you family members in the medical profession about that…

From what I understand these speciality hospitals are being clamped down on. States can set the laws against them. The number of them are starting to stagnate, because if people start to plan them out, they can lose any money they initially sink into them if they make enouhg people mad that they get the states to stop them. The ones who already have them, aren’t encouraging more, because of that. The specialty hospitals might have some pull, but so do the hosptials. The hosptials don’t want to lose their cash cow, especially when they need it to cover their cost of departments they need, but lose money.

I’ve read that somewhere, I cannot remember where, but if you have something to speak to the opposite or something that might supercede that, show me where the articles are.

 

[Man]

First of all, I stand by much of what I said, but there are various forms of bias going on here.

I don’t believe in welfare or rights to health care, believe it or not.

I am an advocate for privileges and preferences for the poor. We need find ways to give poor people the benefit of the doubt when they wish to work.

We talk about school, but school, when an expense and not a responsibility, is simply ruled out for many people.

We talk about health care. Expensive people want inexpensive people to pay for them. Inexpensive people can’t afford health care. This is the old wanting the young to care for them.

And in many cases the ability to pay for health care has nothing to do with how much you make unless you’re exceedingly rich.

Please, if a twelve year old half educated Chinese girl can make a tent, I doubt it was ever considered skilled.

He’d of made more as a scribe. Why didn’t he do that?

 

[vern_humphrey]

Please, if a twelve year old half educated Chinese girl can make a tent, I doubt it was ever considered skilled.

A twelve year old half educated Chinese girl cannot make a tent. She may cut and sew fabric someone else has produced, but she can’t make the whole tent. Paul could – and a much better tent, to boot.

He’d of made more as a scribe.

How do you know?

Do you have his tax returns, along with tax returns from scribes of that era?

Why didn’t he do that?

Paul could read and write, but he lacked the skills of a scribe – note most of his epistles were written by others, and when he, himself, added a few words in his own hand, he deprecated his writing skills.

So Paul had scribes working for him.

 

[Man]

If you don’t have any meat you could use and egg (if you have one).

 

[Trader]

Such a simple concept – amazing how many people just can’t seem to wrap their minds around it.

Here is another one for you.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

I found out that commercial fishing was difficult and dangerous work. Would you just deliver that fish to my house every day?
I can’t seem to get away from my X-Box.

 

[Man]

s

From what I understand these speciality hospitals are being clamped down on. States can set the laws against them. The number of them are starting to stagnate, because if people start to plan them out, they can lose any money they initially sink into them if they make enouhg people mad that they get the states to stop them. The ones who already have them, aren’t encouraging more, because of that. The specialty hospitals might have some pull, but so do the hosptials. The hosptials don’t want to lose their cash cow, especially when they need it to cover their cost of departments they need, but lose money.

I’ve read that somewhere, I cannot remember where, but if you have something to speak to the opposite or something that might supercede that, show me where the articles are.

It was a problem until there was a TV exposure to it recently.

Vern’s probably right, I bought the Chinese tent, because I couldn’t find, and might not be able to afford a Paul grade tent.

I wonder if he paid the scribes. I assume they were just grateful to be involved.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If you don’t have any meat you could use and egg (if you have one).

No eggs and the bread is mouldy. No lunch today. I’ll go to Wal-Mart tomorrow.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Here is another one for you.

Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day.
Teach him to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.

I found out that commercial fishing was difficult and dangerous work. Would you just deliver that fish to my house every day?
I can’t seem to get away from my X-Box.

e
No deliveries – but you can run a trotline on my creek.

 

[Trader]

e
No deliveries – but you can run a trotline on my creek.

Can I sue you if I catch a fish with traces of Mercury, PCB, or DDT? The outrageous settlement my lawyer extracts from you could pay for the trip.

 

[boppaid]

First of all, I presumed she was a single mother because you said she was a single mother. You did not say she was a widow. There is a difference.

Actually, my description of her was 100% accurate. She is now a single mother. It honestly should not matter to you HOW she became a single mother…whether by her fault or not, she has children to raise, and that includes medical care. That was my point. You are judging people to determine whether they are WORTHY of “free” insurance. That’s not up to you to decide.

Social Security, private life insurance, private pensions, IRA’s, inheritance, and other finacial issues are much easier when the parents are married and paternity is legally established. When couples say that marriage is just a piece of paper and there is no difference between marriage and an unmarried relationship, they are objectively wrong.

I don’t think anyone is disputing that. Regardless, she is still raising a family on McDonalds, so I’m not quite sure where you are going with that. (I’m tired, and my brain is moving slowly today, so bear with me! )

Yes, these are difficult cases. For strong families the best solution is help from the widow’s parents, inlaws, and siblings, neighbors, and church. That is a better solution than a government which will supply only financial help. No overworked social worker is going to love a child like a grandparent.

In a perfect world, yes. However in my friend’s situation, her parents disowned her for marrying a Catholic, and she’s an only child. No help from her church thus far, except for a few meals here and there, which is very nice. But it doesn’t pay medical expenses.

For the last group, “continuously ignorant or hard-headed parents who continue to make poor choices” the best of many bad choices is to rescue the children and permanently remove them from those parents.

Are you honestly suggesting ripping families apart because the parents make dumb financial decision??

 

[vern_humphrey]

Can I sue you if I catch a fish with traces of Mercury, PCB, or DDT? The outrageous settlement my lawyer extracts from you could pay for the trip.

No fear – all the jurors hereabouts are my relatives.

True story – I was on jury duty. The case was unlawful killing of a pig – a couple killed and butchered a pig that strayed onto their property. They drew jurors and then examined them – the rest of the jury pool had to sit there while they did it in case someone got kicked off the panel and had to be replaced.

The judge asked the panel in general, “Do any of you know either the plaintif or the defendants?” One juror allowed as how he knew the plaintiffs. The judge asked, “Would that prevent you in arriving and a fair and just verdict?”

The fellow thought a bit, “Waaaaal, I wuz at the barbecue.”

 

[Trader]

Actually, my description of her was 100% accurate. She is now a single mother. It honestly should not matter to you HOW she became a single mother…whether by her fault or not, she has children to raise, and that includes medical care. That was my point. You are judging people to determine whether they are WORTHY of “free” insurance. That’s not up to you to decide.

In the larger picture it does matter. To call a widow a single mother borders on slander. It also matters to her children what kind of example they are given by their parents. It will matter in the event the children need counselling to deal with the loss of a parent. The children of a police officer killed in the line of duty are going to have different issues than children whose father/fathers just left because he/they didn’t care. It also matters because children whose father has abandoned them still have the right to support from their father, and that usually includes health care, even if the mother does not want to deal with her ex. The support is the absolute right of the child, and is not dependent on the mood of the mother.

I don’t think anyone is disputing that. Regardless, she is still raising a family on McDonalds, so I’m not quite sure where you are going with that. (I’m tired, and my brain is moving slowly today, so bear with me! )

I feel your pain. My brain is just plain old, so I have the deal with the situation every day.

Where I was going, is that especially if she is poorly educated, there are other resources she may not be aware of. I was just naming some of them off the top of my mostly gray head.

In a perfect world, yes. However in my friend’s situation, her parents disowned her for marrying a Catholic, and she’s an only child. No help from her church thus far, except for a few meals here and there, which is very nice. But it doesn’t pay medical expenses.

I don’t know where you live, but where I live the church supports a free medical/dental clinic called Matthew 25. They specialize in preventative health services for children.

Are you honestly suggesting ripping families apart because the parents make dumb financial decision??

If the children are in danger from negligent and abusive parents, absolutely. They have already ceased to be a family.

 

[Trader]

Actually, my description of her was 100% accurate. She is now a single mother. It honestly should not matter to you HOW she became a single mother…whether by her fault or not, she has children to raise, and that includes medical care. That was my point. You are judging people to determine whether they are WORTHY of “free” insurance. That’s not up to you to decide.

In the larger picture it does matter. To call a widow a single mother borders on slander. It also matters to her children what kind of example they are given by their parents. It will matter in the event the children need counselling to deal with the loss of a parent. The children of a police officer killed in the line of duty are going to have different issues than children whose father/fathers just left because he/they didn’t care. It also matters because children whose father has abandoned them still have the right to support from their father, and that usually includes health care, even if the mother does not want to deal with her ex. The support is the absolute right of the child, and is not dependent on the mood of the mother.

I don’t think anyone is disputing that. Regardless, she is still raising a family on McDonalds, so I’m not quite sure where you are going with that. (I’m tired, and my brain is moving slowly today, so bear with me! )

I feel your pain. My brain is just plain old, so I have the deal with the situation every day.

Where I was going, is that especially if she is poorly educated, there are other resources she may not be aware of. I was just naming some of them off the top of my mostly gray head.

In a perfect world, yes. However in my friend’s situation, her parents disowned her for marrying a Catholic, and she’s an only child. No help from her church thus far, except for a few meals here and there, which is very nice. But it doesn’t pay medical expenses.

I don’t know where you live, but where I live the church supports a free medical/dental clinic called Matthew 25. They specialize in preventative health services for children. All the Catholic schools I know provide tuition assistance for the poor.

Are you honestly suggesting ripping families apart because the parents make dumb financial decision??

If the children are in danger from negligent and abusive parents, absolutely. They have already ceased to be a family.

 

[vern_humphrey]

If the children are in danger from negligent and abusive parents, absolutely. They have already ceased to be a family.

Families are ripped apart every day by bad decisions on the part of the parents – which include taking drugs, alcoholism, spousal and child abuse, commission of crimes, and so on.