How SHOULD Health Care Work?

[vern_humphrey]

the public school system is free education for all; those who support school vouchers also support free or near-free private education for all.

And about 30% of those who attend those free schools never graduate. And many who do graduate are functionally illiterate.

And the cost is astronmical – here in Arkansas, which is near the very bottom economically, we pay about $9,000 per child.

Quite a bit for substandard education, wouldn’t you say?

the very poor get free food from the USDA: foodstamps.

So should everyone get free food from the USDA?

in a patchwork sort of way, there are programs that help with housing… these are not as well funded or well managed as they really should be, but it’s something.

Of course they’re not well managed – they’re run by the government.

Habitat for Humanity, on the other hand, is a private concern and does a good job.

the very poor are also often able to get free clothing from community organizations, though that’s not currently subsidised by the government.

Indeed, we have just such a system here – Dorcas.

But how does any of that support the idea that everyone should get free medical care?

 

[emily47017]

And about 30% of those who attend those free schools never graduate. And many who do graduate are functionally illiterate.

And the cost is astronmical – here in Arkansas, which is near the very bottom economically, we pay about $9,000 per child.

Quite a bit for substandard education, wouldn’t you say?

so you support school vouchers? free or near-free private education for all?

Habitat for Humanity, on the other hand, is a private concern and does a good job.

but does not serve the very poor.

 

[mary_bobo]

In my opinion, health care should be free for everyone and especially so for the poor.

Please define “free”.

 

[Al_Masetti]

the public school system is free education for all; those who support school vouchers also support free or near-free private education for all.

the very poor get free food from the USDA: foodstamps.

in a patchwork sort of way, there are programs that help with housing… these are not as well funded or well managed as they really should be, but it’s something.

the very poor are also often able to get free clothing from community organizations, though that’s not currently subsidised by the government.

And how satisfied are we with free government schools?

 

[vern_humphrey]

And how satisfied are we with free government schools?

Schools are an excellent example – if the “free healthcare system” is modeled on the schools, then 30% of people needing health care will be ignored and left to die. Many others will receive the wrong treatment – but will have a diploma declaring them to be “healthy.”

As someone pointed out, a government-run health care system will have all the efficiency of the Post Office and all the compassion of the IRS.

 

[emily47017]

if the “free healthcare system” is modeled on the schools, then 30% of people needing health care will be ignored and left to die.

well now that’s an interesting point: i venture to guess that two very big problems with public schools are the inequality in funding among districts and the patchwork of performance standards across the nation.

“no child left behind” is trying to remedy the latter, and while it doesn’t use methods i personally would have chosen, it’s at least doing something. only time will tell if it’s helping.

funding is another matter. currently the federal government supplies just 9% of school funding; the states contribute a little over half, and local taxes fill in the rest: 34%. local taxes include sales taxes and property taxes – two sources of revenue that can be vastly different from one district to another. thus, when i lived in an upper middle class suburb in a state that that traditionally ranks in the top third of the nation, i recieved one of the finest public school educations my parents’ mortgage could buy. the dropout/failure rate at my school was negligible.

the fiscal package suggested by PNHP is funded 60% by the healthcare taxes we’re already paying, and the rest by progressive taxes applied equally across the nation. for most people, the new taxes will be significantly lower than their current health care expenses. equal payment for service will ease inequalities among cities/counties/states.

in short, it won’t be the slightest bit “modeled on the schools”.

ETA: i forgot to mention that the AMA and other national peer organizations already provide very good ethical and performance standards.

 

[cynic]

The problem in public schools is the lack of standards. Go back to the 50’s or 60’s and you would probably find the quality of teaching and assessment to be much higher.

 

[vern_humphrey]

well now that’s an interesting point: i venture to guess that two very big problems with public schools are the inequality in funding among districts and the patchwork of performance standards across the nation.

There is no valid, peer-reviewed study that shows a correlation between money spent and quality of education.

“no child left behind” is trying to remedy the latter, and while it doesn’t use methods i personally would have chosen, it’s at least doing something. only time will tell if it’s helping.

And in the meantime, we just put the children in the freezer and thaw them out when the education system has improved?

funding is another matter. currently the federal government supplies just 9% of school funding; the states contribute a little over half, and local taxes fill in the rest: 34%. local taxes include sales taxes and property taxes – two sources of revenue that can be vastly different from one district to another.

There is no valid, peer-reviewed study that shows a correlation between money spent and quality of education.

thus, when i lived in an upper middle class suburb in a state that that traditionally ranks in the top third of the nation, i recieved one of the finest public school educations my parents’ mortgage could buy. the dropout/failure rate at my school was negligible.

Do you have a cite for that?

There is an almost automatic refrain, “Well, my school was top notch.” But when you look at the statistics, we find while some schools do very well, they are usually counterbalanced by very bad schools in the same area.

the fiscal package suggested by PNHP is funded 60% by the healthcare taxes we’re already paying, and the rest by progressive taxes applied equally across the nation. for most people, the new taxes will be significantly lower than their current health care expenses. equal payment for service will ease inequalities among cities/counties/states.

And by paying higher taxes, we will get a health care system with all the efficiency of the Post Office and all the compassion of the IRS.

in short, it won’t be the slightest bit “modeled on the schools”.

Riiiiiiight. The decisions wouldn’t be made by bureaucrats.

ETA: i forgot to mention that the AMA and other national peer organizations already provide very good ethical and performance standards.

Riiiiiight – and those standards will be enforced by the bureaucracy – just like education standards.

 

[Trader]

There is no valid, peer-reviewed study that shows a correlation between money spent and quality of education. QUOTE]

There are plenty of studies that show Catholic schools outperform public schools in all areas of the country and at all economic levels. And guess what? They do it on lower budgets that are subsidized voluntarily.

After 17 years of attending Catholic schools and a few more of teaching religious education for free, I was amazed how nice the public school buildings were, and how low the public school test scores were. Catholic schools have a secret weapon and it is not money. It is a basic philosophy that parents are the primary educators of their children–not the state (check your catechism on that) and that schools should reinforce the values taught in the home.

All too often our public schools reinforce the lack of values in the home.

 

[whatevergirl]

The problem in public schools is the lack of standards. Go back to the 50’s or 60’s and you would probably find the quality of teaching and assessment to be much higher.

Back in the 50’s and 60’s…parents stayed together too…and the teachers mainly had to just…well…teach. Now, they need to be counselors…policemen/women…it’s gotten ridiculous how dangerous it’s become to be a teacher in today’s society. Back in the 50’s and 60’s…kids weren’t carrying guns to school. Both parents were more involved in their schoolwork…and kids were not spending oodles of free time surfing the net and playing on dangerous sites like myspace…

Back in the 50’s and 60’s…there were many things that changed the landscape of education, than of what we see today. Teachers are not to blame for the education…It’s the way kids are being raised today…in homes where parents are missing in action quite a bit, and the kids are left to guide themselves.

My kids have always attended very good schools…I can’t speak for all of the public school system, but it’s not all bad like everyone makes it out to be.

 

[vern_humphrey]

My kids have always attended very good schools…I can’t speak for all of the public school system, but it’s not all bad like everyone makes it out to be.

But that’s waht makes it so bad. Some children get to go to good government-run schools, some children are forced to go to very bad government-run schools. And guess who the latter children are? Guess where the 30% dropout rate is concentrated?

Whatever happened to “equal protection under the law?”

 

[Trader]

Back in the 50’s and 60’s…parents stayed together too…and the teachers mainly had to just…well…teach. Now, they need to be counselors…policemen/women…it’s gotten ridiculous how dangerous it’s become to be a teacher in today’s society. Back in the 50’s and 60’s…kids weren’t carrying guns to school. Both parents were more involved in their schoolwork…and kids were not spending oodles of free time surfing the net and playing on dangerous sites like myspace…

Back in the 50’s and 60’s…there were many things that changed the landscape of education, than of what we see today. Teachers are not to blame for the education…It’s the way kids are being raised today…in homes where parents are missing in action quite a bit, and the kids are left to guide themselves.

My kids have always attended very good schools…I can’t speak for all of the public school system, but it’s not all bad like everyone makes it out to be.

It may surprise you, but I do agree that children can get a good education in many of our public schools. This is possible IF AND ONLY IF the parents are doing their job. I have friends and relatives who teach in both public and private schools and they can easily identify the children who have trouble at home because those problems manifest themselves at school.

What upsets me most about the public school debate is the thesis that the problems can be fixed with more money doing the same things with a bigger budget. That hasn’t worked yet and it won’t work in next year’s budget either.

Whether the social justice topic is health care, education, or housing, it is clear to me that we do not have a problem of the rich oppressing the poor. By far the biggest oppressors are parents who deny their own children basic human rights, whether that is the right to life in abortion, or the right to a stable loving home because so many parents choose to disrespect God’s gift of marriage. The right to quality education starts in the home with the example of the parents. Children have to be motivated and prepared to learn before they get to the schoolhouse door.

 

[whatevergirl]

But that’s waht makes it so bad. Some children get to go to good government-run schools, some children are forced to go to very bad government-run schools. And guess who the latter children are? Guess where the 30% dropout rate is concentrated?

Whatever happened to “equal protection under the law?”

True…it’s really not all parents or all teachers.

 

[whatevergirl]

It may surprise you, but I do agree that children can get a good education in many of our public schools. This is possible IF AND ONLY IF the parents are doing their job. I have friends and relatives who teach in both public and private schools and they can easily identify the children who have trouble at home because those problems manifest themselves at school.

What upsets me most about the public school debate is the thesis that the problems can be fixed with more money doing the same things with a bigger budget. That hasn’t worked yet and it won’t work in next year’s budget either.

Whether the social justice topic is health care, education, or housing, it is clear to me that we do not have a problem of the rich oppressing the poor. By far the biggest oppressors are parents who deny their own children basic human rights, whether that is the right to life in abortion, or the right to a stable loving home because so many parents choose to disrespect God’s gift of marriage. The right to quality education starts in the home with the example of the parents. Children have to be motivated and prepared to learn before they get to the schoolhouse door.

:bowdown: awesome thoughts!

 

[vern_humphrey]

:bowdown: awesome thoughts!

But the problem is that in many public schools chidren **aren’t **getting a good education – a 30% dropout rate and high functional illiteracy among those who do graduate proves that.

If we want to blame it on the parents, okay – but then justice demands we prosecute teachers and school officials for fraud, because they are taking money for a job they know they can’t do.

It’s time to forget about excuses and get to work in education and produce results.

 

[Al_Masetti]

It might be worthwhile discussing why vaccines used to be produced in the United States, but no longer are.

 

[Trader]

It might be worthwhile discussing why vaccines used to be produced in the United States, but no longer are.

Easy one. L-A-W-S-U-I-T-S.

Most vaccines are a one or two time dose for a few dollars. A lot of lives are saved, but the 1 in 100,000 adverse reaction brings a lawsuit that wipes out all the potential profits that can ever be made from the 99,999 with only benefits.

Drug companies target large markets and chonic conditions that require ongoing use. You may have noticed a few thousand commercials for ED drugs lately.

 

[Al_Masetti]

Easy one. L-A-W-S-U-I-T-S.

Most vaccines are a one or two time dose for a few dollars. A lot of lives are saved, but the 1 in 100,000 adverse reaction brings a lawsuit that wipes out all the potential profits that can ever be made from the 99,999 with only benefits.

Drug companies target large markets and chonic conditions that require ongoing use. You may have noticed a few thousand commercials for ED drugs lately.

Here’s an alternative explanation, which I have shortened … it’s from the Wall Street Journal … [from August 15, 2003]

Everyone knows America’s vaccine industry is in serious trouble, with an ever dwindling number of producers and recent severe vaccine shortages. What everyone also should know is that the National Academy of Science’s Institute of Medicine has now pinned much of the blame on [members of Congress]….

[T]hey identify as a fundamental cause of the problem the fact that the government purchases 55% of the childhood vaccine market at forced discount prices. The result has been “declining financial incentives to develop and produce vaccines.”

The root of this government role goes back to August 1993, when Congress passed … Vaccines for Children program. A dream of … the Children’s Defense Fund vaccines plan was to use federal power to ensure universal immunization. So the government agreed to purchase a third of the national vaccine supply (the Administration had pushed for 100%) at a forced discount of half price, then distribute it to doctors to deliver to the poor and the un- and under-insured.

The result is a cautionary tale for anyone who favors national health care. Already very high in 1993, childhood vaccination rates barely budged. A General Accounting Office report at the time noted that “vaccines are already free” for the truly needy through programs like Medicaid. Meanwhile, however, the [vaccine] project dealt the vaccine industry another financial body blow.

Thirty years ago, the Institute report notes, 25 companies produced vaccines for the U.S. market. Today only five remain, and a number of critical shots have only one producer. Recent years have brought shortages of numerous vaccines, including those for whooping cough, diphtheria and chicken pox….

The Institute of Medicine panel deserves credit for highlighting the threat to vaccine makers from government price controls.

 

[Trader]

That does seem to explain why vaccination prices are so low.

You may also remember the flu vaccine shortages that theaten us every flu season. A contamination problem in an English plant was a big problem. You can count on shortages when the next influenza pandemic strikes. I would bet all members of Congress and their families will be considered high priority for flu shots.

The low prices also reduce investment in the technology needed to scale up production in a real emergency. That emergency is only a matter of time. Flu vaccine has a limited shelf life because the virus continues to mutate and vaccine for last year’s strain may or may not work a year from now. President Bush asked for government grants for that technology, but government rarely acts until long after the problem is recognized.

 

[Al_Masetti]

I just came across an outstanding essay by Stuart Browning, co-director of Dead Meat. Dated January 4, 2006.

The title of the essay is “The Health Care Lies of Paul Krugman”.

Basically, all the stuff you read about regarding the deficiencies of the U.S. health care system is false.

Browning goes into great detail. It’s a very readable three-page essay.

I’ll try and link to it.

onthefencefilms.com/commentary/stuart/krugman_print.html

My recommendation is that folks print it out and read and study it. It won’t fit on a bumper sticker.

On August 13, 2007, Mark Levin read from it on his radio program… which you can access by very easy audio link … at www.marklevinshow.com