How should I have responded to this?

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OK, so I called my senators protesting the HHS mandate, and the man who answered said that if we allowed those opposed to BC and abortion to not cover them for employees, then what if someone’s religion is against cancer treatments? Do they not have to cover them for their employees? I didn’t know what to say to that. Of course I could have said that cancer treatments are not morally wrong and BC and abortion are for blank and blank reasons, but I didn’t want to have a long phone conversation with a man I didn’t know, and also that would basically be saying that this isn’t mainly about religious freedom. Even to myself that would saying that. So now I’m confused. Is this mainly about religious freedom and only secondarily about BC and abortion like I have been told? Or is it mainly about BC and Abortion?
And what SHOULD I have said? This was a while ago, so I don’t remember what I did say, but I can’t get what he said out of my mind. It is not making me second guess my views about BC and abortion, but it is making me second guess whether this is (or should be) mainly about religious freedom?
 
OK, so I called my senators protesting the HHS mandate, and the man who answered said that if we allowed those opposed to BC and abortion to not cover them for employees, then what if someone’s religion is against cancer treatments? Do they not have to cover them for their employees? I didn’t know what to say to that. Of course I could have said that cancer treatments are not morally wrong and BC and abortion are for blank and blank reasons, but I didn’t want to have a long phone conversation with a man I didn’t know, and also that would basically be saying that this isn’t mainly about religious freedom. Even to myself that would saying that. So now I’m confused. Is this mainly about religious freedom and only secondarily about BC and abortion like I have been told? Or is it mainly about BC and Abortion?
And what SHOULD I have said? This was a while ago, so I don’t remember what I did say, but I can’t get what he said out of my mind. It is not making me second guess my views about BC and abortion, but it is making me second guess whether this is (or should be) mainly about religious freedom?
You were right, 101. This action with BC and abortion funding is a reflection of a culture of death that treats pregnancy as if it were a “disease”. Cancer is a disease, but pregnancy is not. Treatment of pregnancy as if it were a disease is part of the larger problem, but specifically it takes the life of an innocent human being. With cancer, the treatment can be fatal, or make a person very sick, but the patient has a choice. The innocent unborn has no choice.
 
The questions are valid because they essentially ask, how are you defining religious freedom and what are you specifically objecting to?

Strictly speaking, the HHS rules on this were just released today. The USCCB is reviewing and hasn’t commented one way or another yet. The rule adjustments attempt to address the criticisms from the last attempt at compromise.

I’ve only read through them once, but the basic setup is this. A group can self certify as a religious organization, this was change number one. Previously, groups had to meet a number of additional criteria to receive an exception.

The group can then purchase insurance without contraception coverage. But individual employees on the plan can then go to the insurance company and setup a separate policy for the coverage. As Health and Human Services noted, this way the religious freedom of individuals and the groups are protected.

The position of the insurance industry itself is that the individual policies will be free, otherwise they want the right to charge more for group policies without contraception coverage (something ACA would not normally permit now). This might seem illogical, but it makes business, if not moral, sense. It’s more profitable for them to sell plans with contraceptive coverage. If they are allowed to offer the individual policies for free, then they seem to assume that their profits will be largely unaffected. That is, they are banking on individuals being widely out of sync with their organizations.

Honestly, I have always found the ‘religious freedom’ argument pretty dubious theologically. Health plans already carry lots of things that can be used gravely immoral ways, and we pay taxes that go for things that are contrary to our individual moral consciences. This seems to, if nothing else, invite a refocus of the criticisms.

If the issue isn’t really religious freedom, but contraception, or a right for employers to exert additional authority and control over their employees, then it seems to me that those are the conversations we should be having.
 
And there is also a man who has won the right to be shown on his driving-licence photo wearing a pasta strainer as “religious headgear”.
You’re supposed to be having a democracy there, and in democracy, by definition, majority wins. If the majority - for whatever reason - wants or doesn’t want some rules applied, they should have it. If there’s enough of people like you, you should try and do what you want; others, who don’t want that same cancer treatment, for instance, can try to promote their view too, and if they get enough support, they’ll have what they want, and you’ll have to comply or “fight” back. Nothing to do with religious freedom whatsoever.
 
And there is also a man who has won the right to be shown on his driving-licence photo wearing a pasta strainer as “religious headgear”.
You’re supposed to be having a democracy there, and in democracy, by definition, majority wins. If the majority - for whatever reason - wants or doesn’t want some rules applied, they should have it. If there’s enough of people like you, you should try and do what you want; others, who don’t want that same cancer treatment, for instance, can try to promote their view too, and if they get enough support, they’ll have what they want, and you’ll have to comply or “fight” back. Nothing to do with religious freedom whatsoever.
Unfortunately this is not always the case. Yes - in a democracy it is often seen as 'majority rules", but in some areas this does not apply. A few decades ago, it was found necessary to pass laws that forced the “majority”, to honor the basic rights of other people. Here I am speaking of the civil rights legislation of the 1960’s. Of course in that case the intent was to provide a truly level playing field.

Another thing that effects the “majority rules” aspect are things guaranteed as rights within the constitution of the country. For instance, right now there is much debate over gun laws. Yet - no matter how badly some (even a majority) want more restrictions on guns - they run up against the clear mandate in the United States Constitution that says the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

In this fight now - the matter is over religious freedom. The constitution can be seen as a bit more vague in this and yet the high courts have consistently ruled that there be a clear “separation of church ans state”. The elements of the HHS mandate concerning contraception and abortion violate this separation.

Now - Speaking to the OP…if the matters under discussion were issues of life and death that would be one thing. Blood transfusions might be a case in point here where certain religious sects do not allow for blood transfusions. But that is a life saving treatment. Cancer treatments can be seen in this same light.
Coverage for contraception and abortion are not “life saving” treatments. They really fall more under the realm of “electives”…Not unlike plastic surgery. Does the HHS mandate cover “nose jobs”?
And that is the bottom line. Contraceptives are ELECTIVES…they are not a life saving treatment.

Peace
James
 
Abortion is about taking a life, while treating cancer is about saving life.
Even so, if s person’s religious conviction is such that treating cancer is against his/her conviction, then no, he/she should not have to pay for it.
The idea of conscientious objection has been valid for military service. It is the reason the Quakers took a stand against slavery and members of religious communities were at the forefront of the civil rights movement.
When you ask me to pay for the HHS mandate, you ask me to violate my conscience, to sin against my God, and to violate my religious convictions guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.
 
You were right, 101. This action with BC and abortion funding is a reflection of a culture of death that treats pregnancy as if it were a “disease”. Cancer is a disease, but pregnancy is not. Treatment of pregnancy as if it were a disease is part of the larger problem, but specifically it takes the life of an innocent human being. With cancer, the treatment can be fatal, or make a person very sick, but the patient has a choice. The innocent unborn has no choice.
Thank you for your response. Easy and perfectly put. THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU.
 
You’re supposed to be having a democracy there, and in democracy, by definition, majority wins.
The Catholic Church recognizes democracy as the most representative form of government:

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20021124_politica_en.html

But governments only are licit if they constitutionally protect the inalienable rights of the human person. For example, racism is intrinsically evil in Catholicism (Gaudium et spes, the Pastoral Constitution of the Church). So, even if the majority wants to give fewer rights to people of a certain ethnicity, we would not consider that licit.

There is some legitimate debate as to whether the HHS mandate truly represents an immoral obligation or if any cooperation with evil is remote, but ‘majority always gets it’s way’ is not how we see a valid democratic nation.
Now - Speaking to the OP…if the matters under discussion were issues of life and death that would be one thing. Blood transfusions might be a case in point here where certain religious sects do not allow for blood transfusions. But that is a life saving treatment. Cancer treatments can be seen in this same light.
Coverage for contraception and abortion are not “life saving” treatments. They really fall more under the realm of “electives”…Not unlike plastic surgery. Does the HHS mandate cover “nose jobs”?
And that is the bottom line. Contraceptives are ELECTIVES…they are not a life saving treatment.
No offense intended, but I do not think that is an especially fair projection onto the people we are disagreeing with. In a secular, pluralistic society health decisions are probably best made by best available health science. From a health science point of view, contraception access appears to pretty beneficial.

It might make Catholics uncomfortable, but ready contraception access does appear to have a strong statistical correlation to lowering certain societal ills, like abortion, teen pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, etc. It also appears to lower the overall cost of health care. The goal of health care reform was to bring more people into the health care system while containing unsustainable runaway costs. Those goals are strongly supported by the Catholic Church.

The standardization of care is because the US reform is still primarily a private sector insurance system, not a universal single payer system like the Church and local bishops have recommended. The point is to take health care, which is largely immune to normal market pressures, and create mechanisms, like exchanges, to inject competition.

Analysis of cost factors has been going on for many years. The National Institute of Health has been pointing to the available research and cost factors from analyzing coverage around the world for some time. That recommendation is for contraception coverage with no religious exceptions at all. That is, health science points to that as the best outcome in public health and the lowest cost.

The Obama administration added a religious exception up front, and has now compromised twice more to greatly expand that exception. So it doesn’t seem particularly Christian to me for us to act as if they are simply pursuing evil and facilitating people of low moral standards with a convenience. Even as we disagree, they are trying to expand something we hold to be a universal right to more of our fellow citizens. And they are trying to balance different moral views, health science, and religious conscience. I, personally, do not envy their position and responsibilities.

And, as I said before, I, personally, think that the ‘religious freedom’ argument is dubious. By the same reasoning, a Westborro Baptist could argue that cancer treatment for Catholic employees is against his/her religious freedom because the cancer is punishment for our “Fag pedophile church.”

I think that it would be much healthier to lovingly work on changing the hearts and minds of our fellow citizens. We do not dismiss science as a ‘cheat’ or a ‘fraud’. But, in this case we view the answers it is providing as incomplete. We hold that the true costs, fiscally, morally, and spiritually, of a sex without consequence society are very high and difficult to directly measure.

Again, I mean no disrespect, I simply think that when 98% of Catholic women use contraception (as opposed to 99% of their sisters) and over 80% of lay Catholics do not even consider contraception to be immoral, we are not in a position to be demonizing anyone. We need to educate our own hearts and minds better. That is, we need to tend to the proper development of our own moral consciences and heed the Beatitudes while we try to bring our beliefs into the public square (CCC 2478 applies to everyone we disagree with, not just fellow Catholics).

Peace
 
OK, so I called my senators protesting the HHS mandate, and the man who answered said that if we allowed those opposed to BC and abortion to not cover them for employees, then what if someone’s religion is against cancer treatments? Do they not have to cover them for their employees? I didn’t know what to say to that. Of course I could have said that cancer treatments are not morally wrong and BC and abortion are for blank and blank reasons, but I didn’t want to have a long phone conversation with a man I didn’t know, and also that would basically be saying that this isn’t mainly about religious freedom. Even to myself that would saying that. So now I’m confused. Is this mainly about religious freedom and only secondarily about BC and abortion like I have been told? Or is it mainly about BC and Abortion?
And what SHOULD I have said? This was a while ago, so I don’t remember what I did say, but I can’t get what he said out of my mind. It is not making me second guess my views about BC and abortion, but it is making me second guess whether this is (or should be) mainly about religious freedom?
Being against cancer treatments, even when cancer treatments save lives, is morally wrong. But it is not illegal to be against cancer treatments.

If people chose to work for organizations that propagate morally questionable beliefs, then it is not for the government to impose its own morality upon their employers. If people find that the positions that their employers take are morally repugnant, it is contingent upon them not to be working for those employers and their morally repugnant ideals in the first place.

That is what freedom is all about. Many people think that the Catholic Church is morally wrong on its position against BC, and even anti-woman because of its stance on abortion. If that is important to them, then they really ought not to work for the Catholic Church in the first place, or expect government help in order that they be able to impose their own morality against their employer.
 
Being against cancer treatments, even when cancer treatments save lives, is morally wrong. But it is not illegal to be against cancer treatments.

If people chose to work for organizations that propagate morally questionable beliefs, then it is not for the government to impose its own morality upon their employers. If people find that the positions that their employers take are morally repugnant, it is contingent upon them not to be working for those employers and their morally repugnant ideals in the first place.

That is what freedom is all about. Many people think that the Catholic Church is morally wrong on its position against BC, and even anti-woman because of its stance on abortion. If that is important to them, then they really ought not to work for the Catholic Church in the first place, or expect government help in order that they be able to impose their own morality against their employer.
The issue is that the government is attempting to require all employers to provide coverage for these services regardless of either their religious convictions or those of their employees.
It should be enough for prospective employees to consider whether or not the product or services the employer provides meet with his/her convictions without needing to examine benefits as well, especially if that prospective employee has already been out of work for months.
I am happy that my current employer does not provide for abortion services. Working overseas I am not bound by the HHS mandate. Moreover, insurance premiums are not being taken out of my paychecks so I am not being forced to violate my conscience. to pay for these services.
 
The issue is that the government is attempting to require all employers to provide coverage for these services regardless of either their religious convictions or those of their employees.
Yes. that is how I understand the issue too.
It should be enough for prospective employees to consider whether or not the product or services the employer provides meet with his/her convictions without needing to examine benefits as well, especially if that prospective employee has already been out of work for months.
That is right. A prospective employee chooses t work according to the renumeration that the employer provides for them, and hopefully according to whether or not the employee considers the work to be beneficial too, one might hope.
I am happy that my current employer does not provide for abortion services. Working overseas I am not bound by the HHS mandate. Moreover, insurance premiums are not being taken out of my paychecks so I am not being forced to violate my conscience. to pay for these services.
The HHS situation does not apply to me either. In Canada, abortions are taxpayer funded, but birth control is not. Such is the nature of the system here.

In America, I believe it was Pelosi that deemed pregnancy and children to be an avoidable expense, that the HHS system seeks to correct.
 
From a health science point of view, contraception access appears to pretty beneficial.

It might make Catholics uncomfortable, but ready contraception access does appear to have a strong statistical correlation to lowering certain societal ills, like abortion, teen pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, etc.
Allow me to interject, but no, it doesn’t.

“Contraception has been shown to decrease abortion rates primarily in countries with already high abortion rates. These represent a minority of countries. Contraception has been shown to increase abortion rates primarily in countries with already low abortion rates. These represent a majority of countries. Contraception has been shown to slightly reduce abortion rates after its initial increase of abortion rates, but has never been shown to reduce abortion rates back to pre-contraception levels. This is my claim. I have no doubt that there’s a lot more to say, given the incredible amount of studies I haven’t seen. But as far as I can tell, this is a claim far closer to the truth than the oft-repeated, always unexamined ‘Contraception reduces abortion rates’.”
patheos.com/blogs/badcatholic/2012/11/does-contraception-reduce-the-abortion-rate.html

The pill came out in 1960. “Because the Pill was so effective, and soon so widespread, it also heightened the debate about the moral and health consequences of pre-marital sex and promiscuity. Never before had sexual activity been so divorced from reproduction. For a couple using the Pill, intercourse became purely an expression of love, or a means of physical pleasure, or both; but it was no longer a means of reproduction.”

“Prior to 1960, there were only two significant sexually transmitted diseases: syphilis and gonorrhea. Both were easily treatable with antibiotics. In the sixties and seventies this relatively stable situation began to change. For example, in 1976, chlamydia first appeared in increasing numbers in the United States. Chlamydia, particularly dangerous to women, is now the most common STD in the country. Then in 1981, human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the virus which causes AIDS, was identified. By early 1993, between 1 and 2 million Americans were infected with AIDS, over 12 million were infected worldwide, and over 160,000 had died in the U.S. alone. Over 10% of the total U.S. population, 30 million people, are infected with herpes.”
leaderu.com/orgs/probe/docs/epid-std.html
Again, I mean no disrespect, I simply think that when 98% of Catholic women use contraception
I mean no disrespect either, but this just isn’t true.
 
Allow me to interject, but no, it doesn’t.
Disagreeing with it doesn’t change the recommendations of the National Institute of Health. I referred only to what the institute recommended. I present no case pro or con for their findings, I only note their existence.
I mean no disrespect either, but this just isn’t true.
It would have been clearer if I had said “98% have, by their own admission, used…”, which would be true using your provided link. I’m sorry if the terse “use” was perceived as to vague and potential columny. However:

gallup.com/poll/154799/americans-including-catholics-say-birth-control-morally.aspx

With 82% of Catholics in dissent with the Church on the basic morality of contraception, I think that my concluding point, that we need to lovingly correct hearts and minds if we want to make progress on this issue, stands.

As far as my main point, that responsibilities placed on us like the Beatitudes and CCC 2478 apply even for individuals we disagree with outside the Church, would that be contentious to any practicing Catholic?

Edit: from your link, the proper way to qualify the research is:
“Data shows that 98 percent of sexually experienced women of child-bearing age and who identify themselves as Catholic have used a method of contraception other than natural family planning at some point in their lives.”
Please feel free to insert that, verbatim, in place of the word “use”. I do not think that it alters my intended point in any way.

Peace
 
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