How Should I Respond to Prot. Pastor Friend Who Claims "Peter was Not Even in Rome"

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sparkle:
He just says “there is no concrete proof that Peter was ever even IN Rome”. Ridiculous! But then he’s part of a totally anti-Catholic church where “if it’s not in the Bible, it’s not accurate”. It’s amazing that someone this ignorant can be someone so highly regarded in the Protestant circle. I just can’t help thinking of the verse in the Bible that says “The first will be last, and the last will be first”. WOW. I think the basis for this belief of his is merely he was taught this in seminary, and it’s all he never has known. Very sad, huh? There are just so many like him.

Everyone’s response here is awesome! I should print out this thread. Yes, I will buy the book “Upon This Rock” today!!! THX
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Folks like this practice what I call “sola scriptura but not wholla da scriptura.”

1 Peter 5, 12-14

12 I write you this briefly through Silvanus, 6 whom I consider a faithful brother, exhorting you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Remain firm in it. 13 The chosen one 7 at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son. 14 Greet one another with a loving kiss. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.
Very clearly, Peter writes from Babylon – which is to say Rome.
 
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sparkle:
He just says “there is no concrete proof that Peter was ever even IN Rome”. Ridiculous!
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So he has no idea where Peter was, but one thing is for sure, he could not possibly have been in Rome because we have no proof, right? At the very least, he should concede that he could have likely been in Rome as anywhere else (never mind the unamious assent of many contemporary witnesses who say Peter lived and died in Rome).

There is FAR more historical evidence that Peter was in Rome than there is about the Peloponnesian War. Ask your friend if he thinks there is no “proof” that Sparta ever fought Athens ('cause it ain’t in the Bible!).

If he believes the Peloponnesian War was actually fought, ask him why he thinks that Thucydides is a better historical source than St. Clement or St. Cyprian.
 
An equally useful argument might go:

Pastor: Peter was never in Rome.
Sparkle: Yes he was.
Pastor: was not!
Sparkle: was too!
Pastor: was not!
Sparkle: was too!
Pastor: was not!
Sparkle: was too!
Pastor: was not!
Sparkle: was too!

ad nauseum.

Sadly this is the essence of how a lot of discussions turn out. People have this “don’t bother me with the facts, I’ve made my mind up” attitude.

But then again if his heart is truly open, he may actually do some honest inquiry, which could set him on a whole new journey home.

I wish you and him luck!
 
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Sherlock:
Sparkle,

You wrote: "But then he’s part of a totally anti-Catholic church where “if it’s not in the Bible, it’s not accurate”.

Well, a person could have a bit of fun with that…for instance, the word “Trinity” is nowhere in the Bible, yet your pastor friend probably (hopefully!) believes in it. I mentioned this to someone with a mindset similar to your friend’s, and they responded, “well, it’s easily inferred from Scripture”. No it’s not—the earlierst years of Christianity saw many heresies that were in conflict with the concept of Trinity (especially in the area of Jesus’ divinity) as we understand it today (as much as we can understand it).

Above all, don’t be intimidated. Remember that there IS an answer to his objections and challenges: none of this is new, and the answers are out there (this forum is a great resource for finding the answers, as are the materials at catholic.com). And if you don’t feel like arguing verbally, by all means just hand him the material that addresses his objections. Put the ball in his court. He’s the one with a man-made tradition of recent origin—he needs to provide reasons for believing in his shiny-new man-made theories, and not just vent his ideas to you about why he thinks Catholicism is wrong.

I’m glad you’re getting “Upon This Rock”—it’s excellent, and very thorough. “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating is also good.

God bless!
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Great Response, Sherlock!

SPARKLE - As a person from a large family - most of whom have left Mother Church for various Protestant denominations - Protestants tend to adhere more to the Pauline epistles because they are easier to twist to their interpretations. I think the reason for this is because St. Paul was so educated that many of his letters fly above the heads of many. That said, ask your friend if St. Paul was martyred - and where. Is it in the Bible or did they get that from Tradition? Was he beheaded as MOST Protestants will tell you? Where is THAT in the Bible. These things about St. Paul and St. Peter are known today because of Tradition handed down from the apostles and early fathers.

"Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ" - St. Jeroome.
 
You guys—OK what great responses from each and every one of you. This helps SO much I cannot even begin to tell you. I am just so glad I am a Catholic!!! PTL! You all are so smart, with such a sincere love for our Church. I just wish I knew you all personally! It is so very hard to get to know people in such a huge city! Don’t know where to begin.

Here’s my question—should I just forget it–or should I send him a copy of “Upon This Rock”? I feel how could it hurt to send it? He can choose to read it or not. At least this guy, I know is fairly intellectual (unlike some other relatives who wouldn’t read a thing). Well maybe I just answered my own question here.

Someone tell me–is this book “Upon This Rock”…very well written by a renowed individual? Who is this Stephen Ray? What are his credentials? Just curious? Would this be THE absolute best book to send him?

Thanks so much friends~~~

You all are fabulous~~~~~
 
Sparkle,

By all means, send him “Upon This Rock”—and get a copy for yourself while you’re at it. It’s a very scholarly and well-researched look at the papacy in Scripture and the early Church. If, as you say, your friend is fairly intellectual, then he shouldn’t balk at it. Yes, Stephen Ray is well-known in Catholic apologetics circles, having written a book about his conversion, “Crossing The Tiber”, and producing the video series “The Footprints of God”. He was raised in a devout Baptist family (father was a deacon and Bible teacher), and became a Evangelical Protestant. You should check out his website at:

catholic-convert.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=1

You can get his books there as well.

It’s hard to say what would be THE best book to send him, not knowing more about him. Maybe you should send him both “Upon This Rock” and “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating. I would guess that the papacy isn’t the only area of Catholic doctrine that your friend has objections to, and, given the nature of his objection to the papacy (which has a fundamentalist “whiff” about it, shall we say), I’ll bet that Karl’s book would end up answering those as well. The difference between the two books is a question of depth: Karl’s books deal with a number of common objections, and does so very well; “Upon This Rock” is a very in-depth examination of just one issue. It’s one issue, though, that is very foundational—get the papacy right, and other things fall into place. I’d get both books!
 
Sparkle,

Oh, and “Where We Got the Bible–Our Debt to the Catholic Church” by Henry Graham is also good.
 
Sparkle – The Lord seems to have put you right in the thick of it, hasn’t he!

Don’t overload this guy. 49 books is too much. Pick one. One that will deal primarily with the single question at hand. If you throw something like Catholicism and Fundamentalism at him, he might react as if attacked; this is very strong stuff. You want to open the guy’s eyes, you don’t want to blind him!

Oh. One more thing. He’s likely to throw another “irrefutable” bombshell at you. So next time, whatever it is, if you don’t know the answer, just say: “You know, I think I heard that once before. I don’t remember all the details of the Catholic position on it but if you’ll give me a couple of days, I’ll try to get you the answer.”

Then come HERE! 😃
 
Pray for him and then ASK HIM TO PROVE IT. And the only proof you’ll take is valid historical documents from the Early Christians. Nothing esoteric…just plain acceptable historical proof.

Should he take your challenge seriously, he’ll end up with the church fathers!!!

God Bless.
A.
 
Friends:

I am a bit nervous, as I took your advice and sent this family member, (a pastor in an Evie Free church) a copy of this book, Upon This Rock. Haven’t heard anything yet, but certainly am praying that at least a small seed has been planted. Lord willing. and Praise Him. For only HE is the one to plant seeds, right? And only the Lord is the ONE who converts souls. Why should I worry? Silly me. Only because it is my cousin. Please if you are reading this post, pray for him as he reads this awesome book. Thank you.
 
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sparkle:
Friends:

I am a bit nervous, as I took your advice and sent this family member, (a pastor in an Evie Free church) a copy of this book, Upon This Rock. Haven’t heard anything yet, but certainly am praying that at least a small seed has been planted. Lord willing. and Praise Him. For only HE is the one to plant seeds, right? And only the Lord is the ONE who converts souls. Why should I worry? Silly me. Only because it is my cousin. Please if you are reading this post, pray for him as he reads this awesome book. Thank you.
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Brave girl! Let’s pray for both of you!
 
Well, if Peter was not in Rome then where is he? Dont tell me that St Peter is in America or England because Protestantism originates in that country.
 
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sparkle:
Guess with Prots…if it’s “not in the Bible”…it’s not valid. If there’s no “Chapter and Verse” explicitly saying: Peter witnessed Christianity in Rome and was persecuted and killed in ______ AD, well then they dispute it, and thus dispute the entire papacy. I’m at a loss.
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I think this is why Protestantism went wrong. They practically threw out 1500 years of Christianity prior to Luther, then had to go and make things up along the way to fit their ideas, which is rather sad. The witness of the early Church Fathers isn’t enough for them? The early Fathers, especially those within the first century of Christianity, literally stood side by side with the Apostles, listening at their feet. Protestantism lost such valuable witness by severly limiting themselves in their sources.
 
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sparkle:
How should I respond friends, to a Prot. pastor friend who claims “Peter was not even in Rome”?..WOW…how could he even doubt? even for one minute? The evidence is just so overwhelming with Rod Bennett’s book “Four Witnesses” among many other good ones and so many witnesses to early Christianity here. Guess with Prots…if it’s “not in the Bible”…it’s not valid. If there’s no “Chapter and Verse” explicitly saying: Peter witnessed Christianity in Rome and was persecuted and killed in ______ AD, well then they dispute it, and thus dispute the entire papacy. I’m at a loss.

I’m getting so tired of this same old stuff…and don’t have the energy for it any longer. Please help me here. I’m not an apologist, don’t want to be, but these things are coming up friends right and left from my Fundamentalist Evangelical Family (Dad and 6 cousins pastors). I MUST know what to say. I need something short, and succinct. Thank you all for your replies. I think churches should have classes on apologetics, don’t you? As we live in such an anti-Catholic society. We must know how to defend our faith, I firmly believe this, or we are just used up salt to be trampled underfoot–as yesterday’s Scripture tells.

Blessings~~
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Hi, friend.

There is some Biblical proof that Peter was in Rome – 1 Peter 5:13, when Peter writes, “The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.” The “chosen one at Babylon” is the Church in Rome.

Most “anti-papists” are aware of this verse, and already have circumlocutions in their pocket to deal with it…e.g., Peter heard from another that the Church in Rome says “hello” to the congregations in Asia Minor, to whom the letter is written; or “Babylon means Babylon”; or “Babylon” means the corrupt world, generally.

They’ll do anything, jump any kind of energetic handsprings they have to, to overcome the clear implication of the verse.

Tell your Protestant pastor friend that you hope to visit Ratzinger in Babylon one of these days soon, and wink.
 
Hey “Millardo”, “Bible reader”, everyone who responded to this thread: A huge “thank you” is needed. I SO appreciate your responses. I fear, that by my sending my cousin, an Evie Free Pastor this book, “Upon This Rock”, it may have created alot of slack within my family. As I said before, my own father, a Fundy Pastor told me shortly after my confirmation: “Don’t send anyone in our family any Catholic stuff”…well --sorry Dad------🙂 If God leads me to do such, I will, regardless of what you suggest…

Haven’t heard from this relative, but am prayin for him, all one can do right? I really appreciate patrick madrid’s show…on EWTN “Search and Rescue”. Have you all seen it? It’s awesome!

Don’t think I should e-mail inquiring if he got the book or not, what do ya’all think? I’m slightly concerned that being a scholar himself, with many degrees, he might look at the back of the book seeing the name “Stephen Ray” with no credentials and toss it out, thinkin “so what”? Who is this guy? So what? he has no degrees, etc. 😦 I pray he reads it though, as it is an excellent, excellent book. Thanks to whomever suggested it. I did just as you said, bought one copy for him and one for me.

Blessings~~
 
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sparkle:
How should I respond friends, to a Prot. pastor friend who claims “Peter was not even in Rome”?..WOW…how could he even doubt? even for one minute? The evidence is just so overwhelming with Rod Bennett’s book “Four Witnesses” among many other good ones and so many witnesses to early Christianity here. Guess with Prots…if it’s “not in the Bible”…it’s not valid. If there’s no “Chapter and Verse” explicitly saying: Peter witnessed Christianity in Rome and was persecuted and killed in ______ AD, well then they dispute it, and thus dispute the entire papacy. I’m at a loss.

I’m getting so tired of this same old stuff…and don’t have the energy for it any longer. Please help me here. I’m not an apologist, don’t want to be, but these things are coming up friends right and left from my Fundamentalist Evangelical Family (Dad and 6 cousins pastors). I MUST know what to say. I need something short, and succinct. Thank you all for your replies. I think churches should have classes on apologetics, don’t you? As we live in such an anti-Catholic society. We must know how to defend our faith, I firmly believe this, or we are just used up salt to be trampled underfoot–as yesterday’s Scripture tells.

Blessings~~
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**You should get the early Church writings of the early Church fathers, they confirm that the Pope is the successor of Peter. Also, St. Peter’s bascilica is built on top of Peter’s tomb. There is archealogical and historical evidence, as well as early Church writings as wittnesses. Even the Church fathers from the East confirm it, in which can be considered as outside sources, since they were no where in the west and some of their successors are currently in schism from Rome. **

:blessyou:
 
Friends: What do you think of this? I have a life-long family friend whose husband is a non-denom anti-Catholic pastor, and so is she. When she found out I converted, she e-mailed me some very anti-Catholic absurd articles, telling me I was into a “false religion”, “those Catholics are not saved”, etc., etc., Stuff she’s spreading throughout their whole “church”. Whoa! I responded very kindly by sending her a couple short phamplets along with Patrick Madrid’s book Surprised by Truth, which someone recommended on here, telling her how thrilled and excited I am to be a Catholic, and I wanted to share this stuff with her. A month goes by, and today I get the stuff back in the mail saying she’s not going to read it. Another Whoa! I feel-- well at least if we share in love, we share period. Who knows if she really didn’t look at any of it–or if she or her husband did------
I’d really like some comments from y’all. She said I wasted my time and money by sending it. Isn’t it better to share our faith than just sit back and not “witness”? I’m kinda discouraged about it. If someone hadn’t shared with me, I wouldn’t have discovered my Catholic Faith.
Thx~~
 
Oh, Sparkle, I sooo understand.

Look at it this way; she sends you anti-Catholic materials and expects you to read it but returns the material you sent her - she claims, unread.
There’s a message here for you.
Did not Christ tell us he came to put a sword between us and “them”.
I have learned the hard way, that my family and “friends” have, at least for now, closed themselves off to any discussion, much less acceptance, of The Holy Catholic Church.
I have had to just let it (and them - to a point) go.
No more discussion of religion with them and only answer a direct question as briefly as possible.
Yes, it does make you tired! So let it go. Perhaps you planted a seed. Perhaps not. Let The Holy Spirit take over from here on and just go your happy Catholic way.
That’s what I’ve done. And I’m much more at peace because of it.
 
First of all, what difference does it make where he was. Since at the time actually being in Rome as a Christian was a death sentence, he could have been the Bishop of Rome and in exile.

Second, if it does matter for a reason that the OP didn’t articulate, there is independent (non-Catholic Church) record of his execution in Rome. Pretty hard to be crucified in a place without being there.

I apologize for my sarcasm but these “flame-throwers” aren’t really trying to shed light or have legitimate dialogues but trying to destroy. While probably not even close to a majority, the repeated threads started by people who just have an anti-Catholic agenda w/o regard to the truth are tiring.
 
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sparkle:
Friends: What do you think of this? I have a life-long family friend whose husband is a non-denom anti-Catholic pastor, and so is she. When she found out I converted, she e-mailed me some very anti-Catholic absurd articles, telling me I was into a “false religion”, “those Catholics are not saved”, etc., etc., Stuff she’s spreading throughout their whole “church”. Whoa! I responded very kindly by sending her a couple short phamplets along with Patrick Madrid’s book Surprised by Truth, which someone recommended on here, telling her how thrilled and excited I am to be a Catholic, and I wanted to share this stuff with her. A month goes by, and today I get the stuff back in the mail saying she’s not going to read it. Another Whoa! I feel-- well at least if we share in love, we share period. Who knows if she really didn’t look at any of it–or if she or her husband did------
I’d really like some comments from y’all. She said I wasted my time and money by sending it. Isn’t it better to share our faith than just sit back and not “witness”? I’m kinda discouraged about it. If someone hadn’t shared with me, I wouldn’t have discovered my Catholic Faith.
Thx~~
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Tell her you will save the material for her and if she’s ever interested in the fullness of the Truth to let you know and you’ll have it waiting for her.
 
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