How should I respond?

[kevin3705]

The below quote is from yet another email received from a family member raised in a Catholic home, attended Catholic schools for 12 years. He joined the Army, married a non-Catholic and has very much stepped away from his Catholic tradition and faith. Once or twice a week, for the past couple months I receive an email from him, all uninitiated.

How would you respond?
How should I respond? Thank you.

His quote follows:
“Do you think that God is pleased with this separation in the “Christianity” that exist today. every where I read in the Bible God is specific in directing what He accepts as worship to him. He was specific with Noah when he gave him the dimensions of the ark, He was specific with the dimensions of the temple that Solomon had built. I do not believe God accepts worship he has not given specific instructions about.”

 

[ralphinal]

The below quote is from yet another email received from a family member raised in a Catholic home, attended Catholic schools for 12 years. He joined the Army, married a non-Catholic and has very much stepped away from his Catholic tradition and faith. Once or twice a week, for the past couple months I receive an email from him, all uninitiated.

How would you respond?
How should I respond? Thank you.

His quote follows:
“Do you think that God is pleased with this separation in the “Christianity” that exist today. every where I read in the Bible God is specific in directing what He accepts as worship to him. He was specific with Noah when he gave him the dimensions of the ark, He was specific with the dimensions of the temple that Solomon had built. I do not believe God accepts worship he has not given specific instructions about.”

Agree. Point out that we are called to celebrate the Eucharist at every service. That is in the Gosples and Acts, alluded to in the other New Testement books. Research the Didache, which contains the teachings of the Apostles. It shows the mass!!

Read The Lambs Supper by Scott Hann. Revelation is the mass.

You can ask him to show how his service is like the early Christians as well.

 

[grandfather]

His quote follows:
“Do you think that God is pleased with this separation in the “Christianity” that exist today. every where I read in the Bible God is specific in directing what He accepts as worship to him. He was specific with Noah when he gave him the dimensions of the ark, He was specific with the dimensions of the temple that Solomon had built. I do not believe God accepts worship he has not given specific instructions about.”

The design of the temple and ark had nothing to do with worship.

When Jesus was talking with a non-Jew the question came up about PLACE of worship and He answered we should worship in spirit and truth. That is not specific in any sense.

At the Last Supper, which Catholics believe was the first Mass, Jesus offered Himself as sacrifice and instructed His apostles to do it in remembrance of Him. He said the bread was His body and the cup was His blood. It is all very literal and specific. He did not say these elements were symbolic, but was His body and blood. He said my body is REAL food. My blood is REAL drink. He gave it to them with specific instructions to eat and drink. Take this and eat it. Take and drink. Christ’s specific words are recalled and His instructions followed at every Mass or Divine Liturgy.

He also told them that whatever they taught He would guarantee. What you bind on earth I will bind in heaven. He gave them authority to teach. That includes teaching people how to worship.

There is plenty of historical evidence that from the time of the Apostles the Church worshipped in this manner and has not deviated from it at least in the basic form.

The prayers said to confect the Eucharist went back to the year 100 until the changes of the new Mass a few decades ago. Still the words of Christ are repeated at every Mass.

If this is contrasted with a Protestant service where there is a long sermon and lots of singing, can we find specific instruction for that from God anywhere in the Bible?

It might be a good idea before opening a dialogue with your relative to ask him what the objective is. Why is he coming to you and asking questions? You should be willing to answer them, but it would be good to know why they are being asked of you. Is he looking for an argument or does he truly want to learn something he does not know?

 

[Little_Mary]

What’s his point? Certainly you can’t blame a Catholic for NOT being specific!! The Mass and The Eucharist are pretty specific.

I would say that a protestant service is more non-specific. Just a man with a divinity degree preaching on a portion of the bible of his choice, giving his opinions. Pretty general if you ask me.

So I guess my response to that email would have been “What’s your point?” so that he’ll elaborate for you (hopefully)…

 

[elvisman]

The below quote is from yet another email received from a family member raised in a Catholic home, attended Catholic schools for 12 years. He joined the Army, married a non-Catholic and has very much stepped away from his Catholic tradition and faith. Once or twice a week, for the past couple months I receive an email from him, all uninitiated.

How would you respond?
How should I respond? Thank you.

His quote follows:
“Do you think that God is pleased with this separation in the “Christianity” that exist today. every where I read in the Bible God is specific in directing what He accepts as worship to him. He was specific with Noah when he gave him the dimensions of the ark, He was specific with the dimensions of the temple that Solomon had built. I do not believe God accepts worship he has not given specific instructions about.”

I would respond like this:
Here is a specific instruction that is not heeded by Protestants:

---

John 6:52-56 emphatically states:
“I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." **
**The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, *“How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?” ***
**Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. **
***Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood *has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. **
**For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. **
**Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.” **

---

Matthew 16:15-19
Jesus tells his Apostles about the Church he is establishing, built on Peter, giving him the keys of heaven and giving him the power to bind and loose in heaven and on earth.

---

Luke 22:31-32
Jesus singles out Peter and tells him that he has prayed for him so that he may strengthen his brothers.

---

Matt. 18:15-18
Jesus tells his Apostles that the Church is the ultimate authority on earth (NOT THE BIBLE), giving it the authority to bind and loose in heaven and on earth.

---

John 17
Jesus prays to the Father for unity of his Church that they may be as ONE as he and the Father are ONE.

---

John 20:22-23
Jesus breathes on his Apostles and gives them the Holy Spirit, again giving them the power to bind and loose.
This is the ONLY other time in Scripture that God breathes on or into man. The first is when he breathed life into Adam.

---

Ephesians 4:4-6
St. Pauls tells us that striving to preserve the UNITY of the spirit through the bond of peace: **
ONE body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call; ONE Lord, one faith, ONE baptism; ONE God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. **

---

Ask him if this reflects the Church he is currently attending.
If not - it’s not the Church Jesus established.

---

 

[cfrancis]

My first question would be, “could you please explain how your Sunday service is spelled out in the Bible?”

 

[Robert_in_SD]

The below quote is from yet another email received from a family member raised in a Catholic home, attended Catholic schools for 12 years. He joined the Army, married a non-Catholic and has very much stepped away from his Catholic tradition and faith. Once or twice a week, for the past couple months I receive an email from him, all uninitiated.

How would you respond?
How should I respond? Thank you.

His quote follows:
“Do you think that God is pleased with this separation in the “Christianity” that exist today. every where I read in the Bible God is specific in directing what He accepts as worship to him. He was specific with Noah when he gave him the dimensions of the ark, He was specific with the dimensions of the temple that Solomon had built. I do not believe God accepts worship he has not given specific instructions about.”

One could argue from this point that the only specific worship given to Christians (as opposed to the Jewish people) is the Lord’s Prayer. Is that what your family member truly believes? That all we can do is recite the Lord’s Prayer?

I’m not sure what it is specifically that he is objecting to? Is it prayer to the saints? Is it the sacraments? Is it just the entire concept of organized religion? Ask him to get specific so you can respond.

Peace,
-Robert

 

[kevin3705]

His objections are many – non-acceptance of the papacy I know is #1, the sacrament of confession (he would say, confessing one’s sins to a priest, another human being!?) His issues and disagreements are fairly similar to the objections of another individual who I went to Catholic High School with.

On our HS alumni website the following question was asked, *“We all spent some time in the parochial Catholic school system and for some of you it enriched your faith, others it quenched it and for some, well, you were just plain indifferent to it.! But regardless of where the axe falls, i’m kind of curious to find out what kind of impression or impact Catholicism has either “had” or is “having” on you today. Speak on it…” *

Reply from my friend Scott (now named Wali-Abdul Rasheed)
***It didn’t strengthen it or weaken it, but it showed me the falsehood in the catholic church. Worshipping idols (statues) which is one of the commandments (thou shall not make engraved images of thy Lord), the trinity does not exist in the bible, ‘God’ having a mother (Mary)?, the many genocides approved by the Pope’s (the Inquisitions), and the false images (European-Roman) of Prophet Jesus displayed throughout the world. ***

How do I rebuff such comments without lashing out in anger at both the misconceptions and level of ignorance of such individuals? PLEASE HELP!!!

 

[ralphinal]

His objections are many – non-acceptance of the papacy I know is #1, the sacrament of confession (he would say, confessing one’s sins to a priest, another human being!?) His issues and disagreements are fairly similar to the objections of another individual who I went to Catholic High School with.

On our HS alumni website the following question was asked, *“We all spent some time in the parochial Catholic school system and for some of you it enriched your faith, others it quenched it and for some, well, you were just plain indifferent to it.! But regardless of where the axe falls, i’m kind of curious to find out what kind of impression or impact Catholicism has either “had” or is “having” on you today. Speak on it…” *

Reply from my friend Scott (now named Wali-Abdul Rasheed)
***It didn’t strengthen it or weaken it, but it showed me the falsehood in the catholic church. Worshipping idols (statues) which is one of the commandments (thou shall not make engraved images of thy Lord), the trinity does not exist in the bible, ‘God’ having a mother (Mary)?, the many genocides approved by the Pope’s (the Inquisitions), and the false images (European-Roman) of Prophet Jesus displayed throughout the world. ***

How do I rebuff such comments without lashing out in anger at both the misconceptions and level of ignorance of such individuals? PLEASE HELP!!!

I take it that he is now Muslim?

 

[kevin3705]

my family member whom I referred to in my original post claims he’s Christian. I still don’t know his denomination, if any – but he is what I personally consider ANTI-Catholic (notice the ANTI is capitalized)

The second individual, the former HS friend Scott, now Dr. Hakim yes I am assuming he’s now Muslim, I have not as yet spoken directly with him by telephone but all indications from his recent post on our alumni site indicate that to be true.

I want to respond to the latter with a specific scripture-based reply, where he can investigate for himself first-hand; after all he’s a Dr. now – he must be a pretty smart guy?

 

[ralphinal]

my family member whom I referred to in my original post claims he’s Christian. I still don’t know his denomination, if any – but he is what I personally consider ANTI-Catholic (notice the ANTI is capitalized)

The second individual, the former HS friend Scott, now Dr. Hakim yes I am assuming he’s now Muslim, I have not as yet spoken directly with him by telephone but all indications from his recent post on our alumni site indicate that to be true.

I want to respond to the latter with a specific scripture-based reply, where he can investigate for himself first-hand; after all he’s a Dr. now – he must be a pretty smart guy?

The Muslim will be hard to talk to about this. Just look at us on here. Basically, Islam teaches that Christianity is wrong and that the SCriptures are corrupt, save those that they cherry pick to blast you with. You can point out that Allah has the Trinity wrong (Jesus, God, and Mary) and that an all knowing god would not have done that. You can point out that Allah swore by things where GOd in the Bible swore upon himself, as there was nothing greater. God tells Moses that his name would always and forever be Yahweh, and that name IS NOT one of the ones given to God in the Koran.

And none of that will matter.

 

[dougfreed]

Just trying to learn where in scripture does it speak of the Eucharist at every service.

Agree. Point out that we are called to celebrate the Eucharist at every service. That is in the Gosples and Acts, alluded to in the other New Testement books. Research the Didache, which contains the teachings of the Apostles. It shows the mass!!

Read The Lambs Supper by Scott Hann. Revelation is the mass.

You can ask him to show how his service is like the early Christians as well.

 

[ralphinal]

Just trying to learn where in scripture does it speak of the Eucharist at every service.

Acts 2:46 pops in my head first.
46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,

I am not aware of any time the term “breaking bread” is used outside of Eucharist in the bible.

 

[Among_Strangers]

The below quote is from yet another email received from a family member raised in a Catholic home, attended Catholic schools for 12 years. He joined the Army, married a non-Catholic and has very much stepped away from his Catholic tradition and faith. Once or twice a week, for the past couple months I receive an email from him, all uninitiated.

How would you respond?
How should I respond? Thank you.

His quote follows:
“Do you think that God is pleased with this separation in the “Christianity” that exist today. every where I read in the Bible God is specific in directing what He accepts as worship to him. He was specific with Noah when he gave him the dimensions of the ark, He was specific with the dimensions of the temple that Solomon had built. I do not believe God accepts worship he has not given specific instructions about.”

I see in the thread where your correspondence is filled with trepidation because of his stanch anti-Catholic stance. May I suggest a different strategy?

Reply with something like:

Dear X,

I was thinking about you this morning and was prompted to pray for you over (name thing). I hope that situation is getting better / turns out well / etc.

Hope you all are doing well. All the family sends their love.

And that’s it. Drop the theology arguments completely. Christ commands us to love each other, He doesn’t expects us to beat each other over the head with our theology clubs.

No one was ever converted to Christ because they lost an argument. They are converted because they see the love of Christ within us. You just have to let it shine out now.

Just an idea.

 

[kevin3705]

I see in the thread where your correspondence is filled with trepidation because of his stanch anti-Catholic stance. May I suggest a different strategy?

Reply with something like:

Dear X,

I was thinking about you this morning and was prompted to pray for you over (name thing). I hope that situation is getting better / turns out well / etc.

Hope you all are doing well. All the family sends their love.

And that’s it. Drop the theology arguments completely. Christ commands us to love each other, He doesn’t expects us to beat each other over the head with our theology clubs.

No one was ever converted to Christ because they lost an argument. They are converted because they see the love of Christ within us. You just have to let it shine out now.

Just an idea.

The kill em’ with kindness route was attempted in 2007. The unsolicited weekly emails began after the Catholic wedding of a family member in 2007, a wedding that both of us attended. It had been 12-15 years since he attended a Catholic mass and as he later discussed in an email, he was so ‘put off’ by it all.

I am not trying to have some theological argument with him. Theology club? This site is appropriately named Catholic Answers – I am Catholic, and looking for Answers!

I know Christ commands. I believe following receipt of the Sacrament of Confirmation we are called to do many things as Christians, and one is to defend the faith against objections, and expose the perceived flaws of other world views.

 

[kevin3705]

My first question would be, “could you please explain how your Sunday service is spelled out in the Bible?”

His response was:
"All the answers to what God requires are found in the Bible. The book of Acts is the best place to find the requirements of New Testament worship. Our worship service emulates the worship service of the first century Christians In the New testament there are biblical examples and scriptures that shed light on acceptable worship to God the worship service consist of five things singing ( Congregational ), praying, Preaching of the Gospel The gospel as defined in the New Testament which is the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, Partaking Of Communion, and Collection. We must look into the scriptures for ourselves and not secondary books written by men The Bible contains all things pertaining to life. I will give scriptural references early next week for all the parts of the worship service."

He has however, repeatedly ignored my request in identifying his Christian denomination. Honestly, I believe it makes him feel better to disagree with someone within the family on religious issues, specifically on Catholic doctrine. Who knows?

 

[ralphinal]

His response was:
"All the answers to what God requires are found in the Bible. The book of Acts is the best place to find the requirements of New Testament worship. Our worship service emulates the worship service of the first century Christians In the New testament there are biblical examples and scriptures that shed light on acceptable worship to God the worship service consist of five things singing ( Congregational ), praying, Preaching of the Gospel The gospel as defined in the New Testament which is the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, Partaking Of Communion, and Collection. We must look into the scriptures for ourselves and not secondary books written by men The Bible contains all things pertaining to life. I will give scriptural references early next week for all the parts of the worship service."

He has however, repeatedly ignored my request in identifying his Christian denomination. Honestly, I believe it makes him feel better to disagree with someone within the family on religious issues, specifically on Catholic doctrine. Who knows?

How is the Catholic Mass not the same as that?

 

[wina]

Show your love as you love yourself. Answer his questions with gentle words but pray before you write them and ask Holy spirit to guide you. Pray for him all the time and may Holy Spirit open his heart and mind to see the truth. Will pray for him

 

[RobHom]

How is the Catholic Mass not the same as that?

You beat me to it Ralph!! My thoughts exactly.

Kevin, since he has declined to “identify” his religious affiliation or denomination…thus far…its not very likely he is going to. He’s playing a game, and using a playbook. One of the standards is to refuse to answer questions by ignoring your questions. He is trying to use “situational control”. Its a very real thing. Its a type of manipulative technique. Now that you know what he’s doing and why, its easy to deal with.

Be as kind and charitable as possible. Make it clear that you are not interested in converting or one-sided conversations. If he is unwilling to answer questions, then there is nothing to discuss. Discussions are not “one-sided”.

If all else fails…ask him if he is aware of the fact that email programs have a built in feature to block email addresses or identify them as unwanted spam and automatically delete them.

Sometimes a little “tough-love” goes a long way.

Peace!!

 

[Jesusisgod]

You beat me to it Ralph!! My thoughts exactly.

Kevin, since he has declined to “identify” his religious affiliation or denomination…thus far…its not very likely he is going to. He’s playing a game, and using a playbook. One of the standards is to refuse to answer questions by ignoring your questions. He is trying to use “situational control”. Its a very real thing. Its a type of manipulative technique. Now that you know what he’s doing and why, its easy to deal with.

Be as kind and charitable as possible. Make it clear that you are not interested in converting or one-sided conversations. If he is unwilling to answer questions, then there is nothing to discuss. Discussions are not “one-sided”.

If all else fails…ask him if he is aware of the fact that email programs have a built in feature to block email addresses or identify them as unwanted spam and automatically delete them.

Sometimes a little “tough-love” goes a long way.

Peace!!

RobHom, you have a very dirty habit of trying to inject guile into people.

.