How should I speak to people who justify poverty and desperation to disobey Catholicism?

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ScrupulousMonk

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*Please stop me if this is detraction

Hello all. Just today, I had a very grave discussion with my parents regarding morals and religion. I also found out more on why they seem to take their faith liberally and sometimes advise me to do so as well…

My parents were not always American citizens. They were born and raised in [a Third World Country] and under some destitute conditions. They said that they spent their early life desperately struggling to survive and prosper. Although they were also raised Catholic, they implied that their morals and beliefs were largely influenced by the need to survive and prosper. I can only imagine what dishonest and immoral things they have done back then.

Even now, living in America and with a middle-class income and assets, they still hold on to similar beliefs. They believe that God will forgive anyone his or her sins as long as they committed them for the good of family or some other greater good. They also believe that the things they did do not make them evil people (I guess because they have not really murdered or hurt anyone). They said that religion does not always teach one how to live practically. They said that they would do ANYTHING for family. They even said that they do not care much for anyone else. They do not care if their sin negatively influences others to sin as well. They said conscience is the primary method to determine the morality of an action. They believe if you feel ok doing it, then it is good. Also, their misinterpretation of Catholic religion and morals are still based on their desire to survive and prosper. Today, I tried to admonish them on this, but they also said that I would not understand. After all, I was never raised in poverty or under desperate conditions. I lived a prosperous life. I had food, water, a house, video games, and access to education. They said that, if I have lived under those conditions, I would not be thinking about God. They said I would be thinking about surviving and prospering instead.

Please advise me: how does one admonish and evangelize those who have committed sin out of desperation and the need to survive when one has never lived in poverty? My arguments and admonishments felt really weak because I have never lived under such conditions. Please help. I thank you all in advance. And please pray for my family. I am not trying to judge them. Only God knows whether blame is to be placed or not. I just needed to talk to someone about this and get some advice on it. Also, please pray for me that I maybe a better Catholic and stay one no matter what negative influence I face. Pray that I be more understanding and caring of others while not supporting their sin.
 
You have posted numerous posts about “admonishing” your parents.

STOP IT.

Stop antagonizing them. Their ears are not open to the message, and your youth and inexperience in the world are, in their eyes, discounting everything you are saying.

Pray for them, live by example, and continue to go your own way when they suggest you do things that are immoral.

You need to be under the direction of your pastor for your scrupulosity and you should take moral dilemmas to him, not your parents.
 
A child admonishing parents is pretty much doomed to failure. They’re not going to listen to you in any case and there’s that sticky commandment about honoring your father and mother.

Admonishing anyone is difficult at best. You can set an example and hope it rubs off. You can fast and pray for them. Beyond that, it becomes a matter of drawing them into something rather than telling them they’re wrong. Pope Francis does this almost daily. You don’t hear him condemning people, you hear him talk about God’s love. It’s the kind of thing Paul was talking about in today’s reading: Love does no evil to the neighbor; hence, love is the fulfillment of the law. That’s what we’re called to.

Show your parents what love is.
 
Justifying sin because of external circumstances is no excuse. Each person is responsible for his actions and how they affect others. Saint Maria Goretti was raped and murdered. According to your parents philosophy she should have given in to her attacker because it would have saved her life. Would your parents reject Christ in order to save themselves or some member of their family? I’m afraid they would according to your story and then they would lose their souls.
I know people who justify stealing from white people because it is a lesser sin to steal from a rich man than to steal from a poor man. Even though the white man is poor it is still okay with God if you steal from him. This is the kind of thinking that costs people their souls. If reason doesn’t work with your family you should never cease praying for them.
 
You are called to honor your parents, not admonish them for doing what they had to do in order to survive and give you a better life.
 
Seems to be a lot of hang ups over the OP’s asking about “admonishing” parents.

Admonishment does not mean to shame, as St. Paul tells us in scripture. Admonishment also means to advise…there is nothing wrong with a son or daughter admonishing their parents if done in charity, especially in spiritual matters.

Peace and all good!
 
To 1ke

Thank you for your words. If you feel that my posts about “admonishing” my parents are sinful for me to have made, then please let me know and I will delete them or at the very least stop making them. I did not intend to antagonize them today. In a way, my dad sort of initiated the discussion. He noticed I was a bit depressed today (that was because I really felt like I did not try hard enough to “turn them from their ways” as talked about in the scripture and Gospel readings today). He wanted me to tell him what was wrong and so I did. Then this grave discussion began…Oh and please do not worry too much about my scrupulosity. I am already establishing a relationship with one of my local priests. I hope that he may guide me on my spiritual journey. But thank you again for your concern.
 
Buck_Crosswhite said:
Justifying sin because of external circumstances is no excuse. Each person is responsible for his actions and how they affect others. Saint Maria Goretti was raped and murdered. According to your parents philosophy she should have given in to her attacker because it would have saved her life. Would your parents reject Christ in order to save themselves or some member of their family? I’m afraid they would according to your story and then they would lose their souls.
I know people who justify stealing from white people because it is a lesser sin to steal from a rich man than to steal from a poor man. Even though the white man is poor it is still okay with God if you steal from him. This is the kind of thinking that costs people their souls. If reason doesn’t work with your family you should never cease praying for them.
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You need to get the story right. St. Maria Goretti was not raped. It was attempted, she resisted and he stabbed her. She died because she did not get proper medical care in time, she lived to far out from any hospital or care. I really wish people would get her story correct and stop making out to be something that is wasn’t.
 
ScrupulousMonk said:
I can only imagine what dishonest and immoral things they have done back then.
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I wouldn’t go there. Do NOT try to imagine what they might have done. If they don’t tell you, you don’t know, and you don’t need to know. So don’t ask them.
ScrupulousMonk said:
Please advise me: how does one admonish and evangelize those who have committed sin out of desperation and the need to survive when one has never lived in poverty?
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As has been mentioned, these are your parents. They are to be honored, not admonished. My parents weren’t perfect, and as a parent myself, I know full well I’m not perfect. I learned a long time ago that the best thing I could do for my parents was pray for them. And I’m so glad I did. They are both gone now and I miss them.
 
Op, I am not sure how old you are but you are delving into things and issues that are not your concern. I agree with 1ke. Just live your faith to your best and stop these discussions with your parents and leave it alone. If they initiate the conversation, tell them you wish not to discuss these issues and leave it at that.
 
OP, how wonderful a gift you have received to be a Catholic and to be able to live your faith! Many people have not been blessed as you have.

God knows that your parents may be here for decades yet and He has a plan for their life, to bring them closer to His loving heart. Pray for that intention every day. You know when you fall in love, it’s so easy to do things for your loved one. It’s a pleasure to be with them and difficult to be separated from them. Pray that they fall head over heals in love with God, then all those other things will fall into place. Be patient that God has a plan, and tell God how you can’t wait to see how He’s going to move their hearts. Tell God how confident you are in his goodness, that he is so awesome and kind to even those who are still far from him. He is all that and more.

Work on your own faith, continue to grow in that. That will be very pleasing to God.
May God bless and guide you today and keep you in his care.
 
To All

Firstly, please help me to understand. So, one can not simultaneously admonish and honor one’s parents? Are you telling me that the Catholic faith obligates us to admonish our fellow human beings except if they are our parents? I know honoring one’s parents is very pleasing in the eyes of the Lord. After all, how can anyone one of us exist without the marital intimacy of our parents? But, if one were to see one’s parents doing something wrong, are you saying that I can not at least say to them that it is wrong? You make it seem like correcting someone or providing advice on the right way to do things is disrespectful. But, I may be misinterpreting what you are saying. I would appreciate some clarification.

Secondly, I do appreciate you advice so far. Unless my parents open up to the Catholic Faith again, it looks like I may have to refrain from admonishing or evangelizing them. Otherwise, I would be proselytizing them and I know the Lord would not like that. However, there is something I would still like to know: How does one convince those who have committed sins out of destitution to follow the Lord more closely when one has never been destitute? What are some guidelines that should be followed? What are some practical, pastoral, and moral measures that should be taken in the attempt to evangelize such a person?

Thirdly, if I may kindly ask, please pray that my family and I will live up to the expectations of Christ and His Church.

Oh, if it means anything, I am old enough to be in college.
 
ScrupulousMonk said:
What are some practical, pastoral, and moral measures that should be taken in the attempt to evangelize such a person?
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One does not push, one leads by example. As you continue to grow in your faith, they should see something worth imitating.
 
ScrupulousMonk said:
To All

Firstly, please help me to understand. So, one can not simultaneously admonish and honor one’s parents? Are you telling me that the Catholic faith obligates us to admonish our fellow human beings except if they are our parents? I know honoring one’s parents is very pleasing in the eyes of the Lord. After all, how can anyone one of us exist without the marital intimacy of our parents? But, if one were to see one’s parents doing something wrong, are you saying that I can not at least say to them that it is wrong? You make it seem like correcting someone or providing advice on the right way to do things is disrespectful. But, I may be misinterpreting what you are saying. I would appreciate some clarification.

Secondly, I do appreciate you advice so far. Unless my parents open up to the Catholic Faith again, it looks like I may have to refrain from admonishing or evangelizing them. Otherwise, I would be proselytizing them and I know the Lord would not like that. However, there is something I would still like to know: How does one convince those who have committed sins out of destitution to follow the Lord more closely when one has never been destitute? What are some guidelines that should be followed? What are some practical, pastoral, and moral measures that should be taken in the attempt to evangelize such a person?

Thirdly, if I may kindly ask, please pray that my family and I will live up to the expectations of Christ and His Church.

Oh, if it means anything, I am old enough to be in college.
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First of all, say a Rosary for them. Second of all, keep quiet.

Let some time pass. Daily, you can still have a conversation here or there about the faith, but there’s never going to be that “moment of admonishment” where they suddenly change there ways.

Any sins they’ve committed in their past life are, quite frankly, none of your business, likewise all of us of our own parents. It isn’t fair to be mad at them for something that had nothing to do with your current state. They’re taking care of you, loving you, they brought you into the world. Yes, sin is wrong. Yes, the sinner is to be corrected. No, you’re not to admonish them because it isn’t your job.

Do you trust in God? Do you trust in His most Blessed Mother? Do you trust in the Saints? Do you not think that God is hearing your prayers, and don’t you know that he will work as He has designed?

There’s something you can do right now for your parents, that can’t be matched by any conversation or talk. Say the Rosary and maybe fast or offer up a penance for them. God is mighty. He will act in His due time. St Monica prayed a long time before her son, St Augustine, came to light.

It’s so important that you just love your parents. They love you. You’re completely right that you won’t understand what they’ve had to do when destitute, as you nor I have never been destitute: leave that where it is. Don’t worry, because what’s done is done and there are two of your parents still loving you, the mother and father you’ve been raised by.

If you do need a guideline, I’d suggest you look at the apologetics forum or better yet this website.

You said that you were establishing a relationship with your local priest, and that’s the most wonderful idea if ever there was one. Keep in contact with him, and write down any questions you might have 🙂
 
To LoyalViews

First of all, I would like to thank you for your reply. It seems so detailed and sincere. I did not mean to admonish my parents out of anger. Yes, there were times where I was really mad at my parents for not giving me the proper moral and religious guidance for certain situations. But, in this case, my intent was to get them to reform. Although, I do not deny that there were instances where I let my emotions get in the way and said things I should not have said. I also admit that I brought up the past needlessly. I did not initiate the discussion. Rather, as explained in a previous post in this thread, my dad, in a way, started it and it eventually led to the more grave discussion.

And, if I may ask, whose job is it then to admonish? I thought the Lord, as evident in scripture, obligates all of us to admonish our neighbor (of course, not in a judgmental manner or with the intent to proselytize).
 
Scrupulous Monk,
I can relate to feeling annoyed (at best) about not having been raised Catholic… but I learned I had to get over that–that it is bad for me to have a resentment like that.

Here is a post about fraternal correction:
Here are the conditions for fraternal correction as found in Third Spiritual Alphabet by Francisco de Osuna, pg. 588. It is the best one I have found on this subject. I pray it will help you.

The first is certain knowledge of the sin; do not correct on the basis of mere suspicion.

The second is meekness in correcting; if we threaten angrily, we will provoke the person we discipline and cause him to commit further sin.

The third condition is that there be no one else more suitable for correcting. If some who are as good or better than I see the sinner or if they are his superiors or are more familiar with them, I can probably assume and believe that one of them will discipline him. However if it were certain they would not, then I would be bound to correct him, provided the other five conditions were simultaneously present.

The fourth is that there must be hope that my counsel will correct him. If this hope is not present, I should not discipline him.

The fifth condition is that his sin be mortal, not venial.

The sixth is that there does not appear to be a better time or place for discipline than when I see him sin or when I choose to correct him.

Though it is difficult to meet any one of the six conditions, the most troublesome is that of discerning whether or not the sin is mortal. If we cannot determine the seriousness of the sin, let us place our finger to the mouth, sealing our lips, so we will not admit evil in our effort to do good or destroy instead of building up.

Sirach 2 CAF

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=767069&highlight=fraternal+correction

The 3rd and 4th conditions would be especially pertinent in your case.

The best thing you can do for your parents is to offer up rosaries and other things for their conversion. God is much more capable of changing their hearts than you are, so ask Him to do that for you, but pray and offer things up to show Him how much you really want this to happen as well as to increase the availability of grace for their conversion.
 
When you have reached perfection in your own life, feel free to begin to admonish others.

It’s very nice to believe that your own faith is so strong that you would never commit sin to survive or permit your family to survive. But you have never been in that position, so you don’t KNOW what you would do if you were desperate. You cannot sit in comfort and safety and understand what it is to be hungry, afraid and desperate. It is something that is beyond your comprehension. Why would anyone take to heart an admonition from someone who cannot begin to understand why you made the decisions you did?

When I read your posts, I do not see a true desire to bring your parents to your comprehension of the faith as much as a desire to point out their mistakes and wrong-doings, something most children do on their way to adulthood. Have you ever considered that your constant “admonitions” are driving them further from the Church?

It’s extremely difficult to live a holy life. It’s impossible to live three holy lives. Concentrate on your own salvation, because, as gratifying as it is to dwell on others’ sins, yours are the ones that should concern you
 
Before we all trash aka admonish scrupulousmonk’s parents, let’s be a bit charitable, shall we?

The poor have to do things that those of us never will have to contemplate - particularly those with access to hot food; indoor plumbing; and video games.

I happen to think that sometimes just surviving is all God may ask of us. I suspect someone like Alexandr Solzenhytsen might agree. There’s a lot more Christianity in keeping your family alive and safe, when those are in bona fide doubt, than there is in upbraiding one’s parents after they dealt won’t problems far far beyond video games and college.

I would second 1kes post, although I do not and will not sanction circumventing ones parents (although I do not think that was exactly being meant).
 
To Book Worm

Please pardon me if I made it look like I was dwelling on the sins of my parents and not my own. The reason I pointed the sins my parents committed in this post is so that potential posters may fully understand the situation and give me advice on what I should do. Also, so that they may better formulate their prayers. Although, I do not deny that I may have also done so for the reasons you implied. In no way was I saying that I was better than my parents. I have never sinned out of poverty or destitution, but sinned in many other ways. I have lied, cheated, lusted, hurt others, given into despair and cowardice and many other things. I just felt it was my obligation to admonish my parents.

But, you are all right. Perhaps I may have pushed them too far and been hypocritical. It would be better to just pray for them and hope they repent. I guess I should also pray that any damage I have done will not negatively affect them.
 
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