How should the OF be celebrated?

[japhy]

The permission for certain liturgical changes, such as the possibility of celebrating Mass facing the people, while not expressly stated in the documents of Vatican II are implicitly envisioned in them. For example, Sacrosanctum Concilium says that “Along with the revision of the liturgical books, as laid down in Art. 25, there is to be an early revision of the canons and ecclesiastical statutes which govern the provision of material things involved in sacred worship. These laws refer especially to the worthy and well planned construction of sacred buildings, the shape and construction of altars, the nobility, placing, and safety of the eucharistic tabernacle, the dignity and suitability of the baptistery, the proper ordering of sacred images, embellishments, and vestments. Laws which seem less suited to the reformed liturgy are to be brought into harmony with it, or else abolished; and any which are helpful are to be retained if already in use, or introduced where they are lacking.” (SC 128) Thus, while Vatican II did not say “altars should be built away from the wall”, Vatican II did say “the rules governing (among other things) the construction of altars should be revised in light of the reformed liturgy.”

The liturgical documents immediately following Sacrosanctum Concilium (specifically Inter Oecumenici (1964), Tres Abhinc Annos (1967), and Liturgicae Instaurationes (1970)) deal with implementing Sacrosanctum Concilium and give far more detail into the sorts of liturgical revisions made.

 

[YoungTradCath]

I don’t think it’s possible to answer the OP’s question.

 

[Big_Feet]

Here is a “minimum repituare” for the faithful put forward following the council.

adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

I’d work on the Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus, Mysterium Fidei, Pater Noster, and Agnus Dei. Youtube them if they aren’t found at the link above.

Beware! The Kyrie is not Latin, but Greek.

 

[YoungTradCath]

Beware! The Kyrie is not Latin, but Greek.

And all the more reason to have it in the sacral language instead of the vulgar! Preserve our Greek remnant! I would also have quite liked if they retained the “sabaoth” of the Sanctus instead of translating it. It is good to have that remnant as well, I think.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

Ok thanks for the heads up!

Do you know which parts of the Mass the laity are suppose to know in Latin? I figure the Gloria, but is there anything else?

We once had a parish priest who didn’t know Latin. I know he didn’t because I once asked him if he’d been taught Latin at seminary. He told me they didn’t teach any Latin when he was a seminarian.

As far as I’m aware there’s no specific requirement on the laity to know Latin. If a generation of priests weren’t taught it I can’t see how the Church can expect us to know any. I was never taught Latin at school and I don’t known anyone who was.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

As lay people, we should also assume in most situations that our priests, who have been trained to say the Mass, are selecting allowed options in situations where there are options.

It would be ideal if that were true. Unfortunately, not all priests select options that are permitted to them. Our priests have been trained how to say Mass but that then depends on how well trained they were. Some seminaries have been known not to choose from among legitimate options.

I believe that we should be able to have the expectation that our clergy celebrate the liturgy in accordance with the norms issued by the Church. Many of us who lurk on this board no that isn’t always the case.

It is quite possible for laity to know the rubrics and to know what is permitted and what is not. They are capable of noticing when a priest makes an invalid choice. I believe it was the Pope who said we have the right to a correctly celebrated liturgy and the right to raise our concerns when this doesn’t happen.

 

[superamazingman]

And all the more reason to have it in the sacral language instead of the vulgar! Preserve our Greek remnant! I would also have quite liked if they retained the “sabaoth” of the Sanctus instead of translating it. It is good to have that remnant as well, I think.

Indeed! When you attend the EF, there’s an interesting connection: What three languages are used:

• Hebrew (Alleluia, Hosana, sabaoth, amen, etc…)
• Latin
• Greek (Kyrie)

The Mass is the representation of our Lord’s sacrifice on the cross. See any connections…?

 

[triumphguy]

Sacrosanctum Concilium 54:
In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.
Pope Paul VI presented a “minimum repertoire” of Latin chant (which the faithful ought to know) in the document Voluntati Obsequens, the chants being compiled as Jubilate Deo.

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be
      preserved in the Latin rites.

2. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the
administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be
of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended.
This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the
prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down
separately in subsequent chapters.
3. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical
authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the
vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is,
confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this
authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same
language

The “competent territorial ecclesiastical authorit(ies)” in Canada and the USA have extended the vernacular to the whole of the OF mass. Therefore there is no need to learn the Latin responses, unless you want to participate in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

 

[japhy]

The “competent territorial ecclesiastical authorit(ies)” in Canada and the USA have extended the vernacular to the whole of the OF mass. Therefore there is no need to learn the Latin responses, unless you want to participate in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

But “Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”

The GIRM, even with US adaptations, still says: “Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.” (GIRM 41)

 

[triumphguy]

But “Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.”

The GIRM, even with US adaptations, still says: “Since faithful from different countries come together ever more frequently, it is fitting that they know how to sing together at least some parts of the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin, especially the Creed and the Lord’s Prayer, set to the simpler melodies.” (GIRM 41)

Which parts of the mass pertain to them if the OF is all in English?

And “it is fitting” is different from “must.”

The only reason I’m arguing about this is because it’s easy to say “must” and “should” and “ought” when someone new to the Church asks “should I do X Y and Z,” but sometimes the words aren’t so black and white.

It’s great to learn to read or sing Latin aloud when someone is or becomes a catholic.
It’s wonderful to want to join in and learn some parts of the mass in Latin.
If you go to a Papal mass then you will feel more at home.
If you attend the EF it will certainly help your participation.

I**t is not, however, required **in Canada, the USA, the UK, Australia etc.

 

[japhy]

Which parts of the mass pertain to them if the OF is all in English?

The parts of the Mass that pertain to us do not depend on the language. Read SC 54 again:
In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to the norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them. …]
SC 54.1 says that the vernacular may be extended to “those parts which pertain to the people”, but SC 54.2 begins by saying Nevertheless. In other words, despite the vernacular being extended to the parts which pertain to the people, the faithful should still be able to say or sing in Latin the parts which pertain to them, even though those parts might regularly be in their vernacular.

 

[triumphguy]

And which parts of the mass pertain to them in Latin if the vernacular is used?

This could go round and round…

I have not seen anything definitive on this.

Again: I studied Latin for 6 years at school. I read Virgil and Homer in Latin. I served benediction for years when it was all in Latin.

But I’m still not convinced by anything I have read that in order to be a good Catholic you need to learn the parts of the mass in Latin.

It all comes down to this:

it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical
authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the
vernacular language is to be used

Prove me wrong and I’ll email you a beverage of your choice

 

[Vico]

I have not read all of the V2 documents, and there seems to be a toss up between this, but how is the OF suppose to be celebrated. Is it ad orietem? communion kneeling? high altar? some Latin? Im asking because I’ve only heard Latin once or twice while being Catholic.
Or is it the way it is done in your average suburban parish? I have heard both as the way it should be done, and the priest at my parish said that V2 did not mandate the high altar and all that…So which is it:shrug:

P.S. Let’s please not turn this into a bash V2 thing or anything like that, I just want to find out the answer.

The norms are to stand most of the time, with kneeling for Communion or during the Canon. Inaestimabile Donum:
11. The Church has always required from the faithful respect and reverence for the Eucharist at the moment of receiving it.
With regard to the manner of going to Communion, the faithful can receive it either kneeling or standing, in accordance with the norms …
ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp2inaes.htm

Pope Paul VI:8. It is here that the greatest newness is going to be noticed, the newness of language. No longer Latin, but the spoken language will be the principal language of the Mass. The introduction of the vernacular will certainly be a great sacrifice for those who know the beauty, the power and the expressive sacrality of Latin. We are parting with the speech of the Christian centuries; we are becoming like profane intruders in the literary preserve of sacred utterance. We will lose a great part of that stupendous and incomparable artistic and spiritual thing, the Gregorian chant.
L’Osservatore Romano, Weekly Edition in English, 4 December 1969

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6691126.HTM

 

[ProVobis]

ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P6691126.HTM

Then 5 yrs later:

In April 1974 Pope Paul VI sent to every bishop in the world a booklet of some of the simplest selections of Gregorian Chant, much of it drawn from the Graduale Romanum. This booklet, called Jubilate Deo, was intended as a “minimum repertoire of Gregorian chant”. It is, in other words, an official Latin “core repertoire” for the Roman Rite. It was prepared, the Pope said, in order “to make it easier for Christians to achieve unity and spiritual harmony with their brothers and with the living tradition of the past. Hence it is that those who are trying to improve the quality of congregational singing cannot refuse Gregorian chant the place which is due to it” (Voluntati Obsequens).

Pope Paul VI gave permission for the selections in Jubilate Deo to be freely reprinted. The booklet was accompanied by a letter in which the Holy Father made this request of the bishops:

“Would you therefore, in collaboration with the competent diocesan and national agencies for the liturgy, sacred music and catechetics, decide on the best ways of teaching the faithful the Latin chants of Jubilate Deo and of having them sing them…. You will thus be performing a new service for the Church in the domain of liturgical renewal” (Voluntati Obsequens).

Jubilate Deo contains simple chant settings in Latin of the parts of the Ordinary of the Mass: Kyrie, Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, Agnus Dei. It also provides musical settings for the dialogues between priest and people, such as before the Preface, and the Ite Missa est, the response to the Prayer of the Faithful, and others.
…

adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

 

[triumphguy]

Thanks.

That’s new to me.

Coffee or tea by internet? Or something a little stronger?

By the way. How come this IS news to me?

1974 was a long time ago!

 

[ProVobis]

The “competent territorial ecclesiastical authorit(ies)” in Canada and the USA have extended the vernacular to the whole of the OF mass. Therefore there is no need to learn the Latin responses, unless you want to participate in the Extraordinary Form of the Mass.

It’s interesting in the SC the Latin haud raro linguae vernaculae usurpatio (“not rarely the use of the vernacular language”) went to “frequently the use of the mother tongue” and then applied as all-vernacular all-the-time and “reversed” by Voluntati Obsequens all within 12 years.

 

[triumphguy]

I’ve been trying to figure out why Latin is not promoted and it still seems to come back to this:

it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used

 

[japhy]

Then 5 yrs later:
adoremus.org/JubilateDeo.html

I said that back in post 19.

 

[japhy]

I’ve been trying to figure out why Latin is not promoted and it still seems to come back to this:

And I still think the answer is because the “Nevertheless” of SC 54.2 has been overlooked, in much the way you overlooked it (no offense).

Provideatur tamen ut christifideles etiam lingua latina partes Ordinarii Missae quae ad ipsos spectant possint simul dicere vel cantare.

 

[YoungTradCath]

And I still think the answer is because the “Nevertheless” of SC 54.2 has been overlooked, in much the way you overlooked it (no offense).

Provideatur tamen ut christifideles etiam lingua latina partes Ordinarii Missae quae ad ipsos spectant possint simul dicere vel cantare.

I feel this is much more a (Catholic) cultural problem than it is with any arcane legislation minutiae in Sacrosancturm Concilium.

Most Catholics place little to no value on there being bright and clear cultural markers in their lives which separate them from other people, indeed other Christians. Things like abstinence, elementary knowledge of the unchanging parts of the Mass in Latin, appreciation of ritual solemnity, don’t matter to most Catholics.

We currently have this odd, and in my opinion self-destructive and almost multiple personality-esque, sort of liturgical legislation, and larger than that, “Catholic identity” legislation. It goes a little like this:

"Uh, well, um, well, we’d like you, certainly, to do these things, or at least we think we do, at least cough officially cough: _____________ because this is the best option and is most in line with Catholic tradition. Cause Vatican II said so, but SSSHH don’t tell anybody!

And, um, hey! we don’t really know why, but here, we’re gonna give you another set of options, much easier to satisfy, for no reason really: _____ and we know you’re all going to do this so, PSST, just conveniently ignore and forget about the first set, and use the Spirit of Vatican II as the excuse! But we’re going to leave the first set in the law as the “norm”–even though no one’s gonna do it–just so we can save our consciences!"

It’s funny that we are supposedly the most “educated” and “literate” people in world history, yet we know so little and practice our religion in such an “economical” way… Hm…



I feel this is almost a rejection of the Universal Call to Holiness, in a way. The laity want to be “empowered” or whatever, but when you start making demands of them, liturgical but mostly otherwise, they get cold feet.