How should we stand on illegal immigrants in the US?

[Tigg]

We have never been able do enforce our immigration policy as it is. Why? It is poorly written, making no allowances for the labor demand, at least that is one theory. What is* not* theoretical is that we can not enforce it, at least based on all evidence.* Why* is really a secondary question.

The operative word here being* theory*!

If the United States Government had the will, and desire, our borders would be protected and the current immigration law on the books upheld. It is laughable to say that a super power *cannot *provide the most rudimentary of services to its citizens and protect its own borders. It simply does not wish to do so.

eerr…Are we still considered a super power?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

If the United States Government had the will, and desire, our borders would be protected and the current immigration law on the books upheld. It is laughable to say that a super power *cannot *provide the most rudimentary of services to its citizens and protect its own borders. It simply does not wish to do so.

eerr…Are we still considered a super power?

Of course we could seal the border - using land mines or armed drones or any number of “superpower” technologies. But we could not do that ethically. Once you add in the restraint that it must be done ethically, even a superpower is a lot less powerful. Although, I do agree that there is also a problem with the will, because the undocumented are so beneficial to certain industries that rely on them for cheap labor.

 

[St_Francis]

Yeah, it was sounding pretty nice until that “eventual war” part. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the Europeans taking over America were less damaging to the Native American society than a few thousand children entering the US today. “Minimal interaction” was it? Well, if you call being driven from your best, most productive land and forced to march hundreds of miles to desolate reservations and systematically cut off from all the best resources as minimal interaction, well, you just haven’t read your history books. Read up on the “Trail of Tears” and then tell me how kids from South America are much more damaging to us today.
Yes, we certainly can. There are charitable organizations and adoption opportunities just waiting to fill the need. All children start out poorly educated. That is why we educate them. Your arguments based on inability to support the children are the same arguments that population control proponents use to support abortion and contraception. Are you sure you want to get into bed with that crowd? And lest you think this is a conservative vs liberal issue, take a look at what conservative columnist George Will said about this issue recently.

George will is wrong on a couple of points, the second being the influx of immigrants through Ellis Island. In that case, immigrnTs were checked out, if they were ill, they were not permitted to enter.
And the first being that while it is true that a rising percentage of entering children are under 12, the vast majority are boys 14 and older. Harder to find families to take in boys of that age with no knowledge of background, or covered with gang tatoos.

And speaking of this, all these people who take the children in, are they going to have comprehensive background checks?

Training to be foster parents? Specialied training to help foster children from other nations/cultures who have suffered traumatic events? In Spanish?

Will their Catholic (or other) faith be supported and nurtured?

Are there going to be social workers checking on them once a week or once a month?

Are the foster families expected to bear the burden of the additional expenses on their own, and if not, where will that money come from?

This answers some of those questions.

And puts paid to the idea that immigrnats, legal or illegal, can’t get welfare, bit i already knew that as some of the immigrants I know get aid.

 

[Tigg]

Of course we could seal the border - using land mines or armed drones or any number of “superpower” technologies. But we could not do that ethically. Once you add in the restraint that it must be done ethically, even a superpower is a lot less powerful. Although, I do agree that there is also a problem with the will, because the undocumented are so beneficial to certain industries that rely on them for cheap labor.

Sorry, but I do not consider the government ethical in any way. In fact, what is currently happening with the new influx is anything but. The border could be protected and the problem somewhat solved without violence if they were not being deliberately enticed to come here.

 

[pnewton]

The operative word here being* theory*!

If the United States Government had the will, and desire, our borders would be protected and the current immigration law on the books upheld. It is laughable to say that a super power *cannot *provide the most rudimentary of services to its citizens and protect its own borders. It simply does not wish to do so.

eerr…Are we still considered a super power?

True. It is just an opinion of mine, but I believe it based on evidence. I do not think we can “seal off” our rather long border with Mexico. You think this is possible. Please do not think my opinion is laughable though and I will offer you the same courtesy.

 

[AUGUSTINE1102]

This ILLEAGAL immigration issue is such a debacle and puts good, devout Catholics in hard positions. First, we must keep in mind that many in Washington DC do not want to resolve this issue for they feel it benefits their political agenda. Second, Catholics are not bound to obey every directive from the USCCB that has not been reaffirmed by the Holy See! The USCCB and any bishops conference does not have any authority in themselves unless recognized/delegated by the Holy See. This has been a great point of confusion after Vatican II. Some thought these conferences had a power/authority in their own right. They are merely consultory bodies for nations to the Holy See. Mind you, they also supported “comprehensive health care reform” (Obamacare) and we all know how that tquickly turned on them. The USCCB is a little too “pie in the sky” many times! Thirdly, while many are correct that assisting those in need is always the right thing to do, we, as a nation, are not bound to open borders and let, indiscriminately, anyone in who wants to come in. Nations have a duty FIRST to its existing citizens, secondly to others. Yes, individuals have rights and dignities but nations have the right to maintain their borders and determine who they let in. That is Church social teaching too! Fourthly, these illegal immigrants, if allowed into this nation have a duty to this nation and God, to respect the laws, become not an economic burden, and respect the established culture and traditions as the Catechism says. This is one of the paragraphsoften ignored by many in this debate. My great-grandparents were all immigrants from Germany and Ireland that came here legally and assimulated because that was expected of them. They worked very hard, learned the language, had no safety-net (welfare, food stamps, etc.) to coddle them. They worked tirelessly and ethically and made a life for themselves and my grandparents. It was not easy for them but they did it! So can those who wish to come here from south of the border. Fifthly, these illegal immigrants, after initial assistance from the state to get them going, must not be a burden or ward of the state long term. If that is the reason for coming, and many do this (I see it everyday at my work in significant numbers - people for years on food stamps that eat like royalty and cannot speak English), send them home. The purpose of this is to give them a better life at the expense of their own hard work, assimulation into American culture and life, and contributing in a positive way to American society. If this is not their aim or the ultimate result of regularizing these people…bye, bye! I as a hard-working tax paying American citizen feel that if my hard-earned tax money goes to subsidize dependency, as much of it now does to existing citizens, we do not need these people here. The USA is not a charity as James Madison stated when denying federal funds to refugee immigrants in his term. Sixthly, if the Church (or American prelates) is to deem devout conservative Catholics, who I would argue are the backbone of the true Church, to be disobedient and uncharitable, then they should lead by example and float the first bills. Not donating Bibles but sell rectories and cut the pay of the clergy, cut non-essential staff in parishes and redirect those resources/funds to lead the way paying for this surge. Put your money where your mouth is! Seventhly, this issue, where charity and compassion is needed, is not dogma. Many in the Church on these issues proclaim certain positions as dogma but are not. How often I hear that capital punishment is contrary to Catholic doctrine! It is not! Our position must be informed by reason and charity but it is permissible, even if the occassion is rare. We have clear commands from the Lord and Church teaching to lean on the side of charity and love. I will never argue that. But in light of many contingencies, not all pursuing this from either a Catholic nor charitable perspective, nor for the genuine health of the nation, I have every right, due to conscience formed by Catholic teaching to determine where i will stand on this issue.
As was stated in a 2008 discussion on CatholicAnswers this response by Fr. Vincent Serpa was given: “Such directives are not a matter of dogma. While the bishops’ concerns here are based on Catholic moral principles, Catholics can disagree on their practical applications.”

 

[Hobbes42]

This ILLEAGAL immigration issue is such a debacle and puts good, devout Catholics in hard positions. First, we must keep in mind that many in Washington DC do not want to resolve this issue for they feel it benefits their political agenda. Second, Catholics are not bound to obey every directive from the USCCB that has not been reaffirmed by the Holy See! The USCCB and any bishops conference does not have any authority in themselves unless recognized/delegated by the Holy See. This has been a great point of confusion after Vatican II. Some thought these conferences had a power/authority in their own right. They are merely consultory bodies for nations to the Holy See. Mind you, they also supported “comprehensive health care reform” (Obamacare) and we all know how that tquickly turned on them. The USCCB is a little too “pie in the sky” many times! Thirdly, while many are correct that assisting those in need is always the right thing to do, we, as a nation, are not bound to open borders and let, indiscriminately, anyone in who wants to come in. Nations have a duty FIRST to its existing citizens, secondly to others. Yes, individuals have rights and dignities but nations have the right to maintain their borders and determine who they let in. That is Church social teaching too! Fourthly, these illegal immigrants, if allowed into this nation have a duty to this nation and God, to respect the laws, become not an economic burden, and respect the established culture and traditions as the Catechism says. This is one of the paragraphsoften ignored by many in this debate. My great-grandparents were all immigrants from Germany and Ireland that came here legally and assimulated because that was expected of them. They worked very hard, learned the language, had no safety-net (welfare, food stamps, etc.) to coddle them. They worked tirelessly and ethically and made a life for themselves and my grandparents. It was not easy for them but they did it! So can those who wish to come here from south of the border. Fifthly, these illegal immigrants, after initial assistance from the state to get them going, must not be a burden or ward of the state long term. If that is the reason for coming, and many do this (I see it everyday at my work in significant numbers - people for years on food stamps that eat like royalty and cannot speak English), send them home. The purpose of this is to give them a better life at the expense of their own hard work, assimulation into American culture and life, and contributing in a positive way to American society. If this is not their aim or the ultimate result of regularizing these people…bye, bye! I as a hard-working tax paying American citizen feel that if my hard-earned tax money goes to subsidize dependency, as much of it now does to existing citizens, we do not need these people here. The USA is not a charity as James Madison stated when denying federal funds to refugee immigrants in his term. Sixthly, if the Church (or American prelates) is to deem devout conservative Catholics, who I would argue are the backbone of the true Church, to be disobedient and uncharitable, then they should lead by example and float the first bills. Not donating Bibles but sell rectories and cut the pay of the clergy, cut non-essential staff in parishes and redirect those resources/funds to lead the way paying for this surge. Put your money where your mouth is! Seventhly, this issue, where charity and compassion is needed, is not dogma. Many in the Church on these issues proclaim certain positions as dogma but are not. How often I hear that capital punishment is contrary to Catholic doctrine! It is not! Our position must be informed by reason and charity but it is permissible, even if the occassion is rare. We have clear commands from the Lord and Church teaching to lean on the side of charity and love. I will never argue that. But in light of many contingencies, not all pursuing this from either a Catholic nor charitable perspective, nor for the genuine health of the nation, I have every right, due to conscience formed by Catholic teaching to determine where i will stand on this issue.
As was stated in a 2008 discussion on CatholicAnswers this response by Fr. Vincent Serpa was given: “Such directives are not a matter of dogma. While the bishops’ concerns here are based on Catholic moral principles, Catholics can disagree on their practical applications.”

Spaces between sentences let the reader breathe so to say.

Breaking it up will make reading your post easier and more cogent in reading.

 

[davidmlamb]

Separate politics and government (both sides, all countries) and concentrate on the gospel, and your confliction will be gone:

Matthew 25:34-45 (NAB)

34Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, 36naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’ 37Then the righteous* will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’ 40And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’ 41** Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’ 44**Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ 45He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ 46*And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Peace and all good!

.

AMEN!

When Joseph and Mary fled to Egypt because they were in distress they did not apply for immigration status, they fled regardless of the law. Catholics have a moral duty to disobey laws that infringe on their dignity and safety. First allow me to quote the scriptures:

When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien. 34 The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself… Leviticus 19:33-34

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

*1902 Authority does not derive its moral legitimacy from itself. It must not behave in a despotic manner, but must act for the common good as a “moral force based on freedom and a sense of responsibility”:21

A human law has the character of law to the extent that it accords with right reason, and thus derives from the eternal law. Insofar as it falls short of right reason it is said to be an unjust law, and thus has not so much the nature of law as of a kind of violence.22

1903 Authority is exercised legitimately only when it seeks the common good of the group concerned and if it employs morally licit means to attain it. If rulers were to enact unjust laws or take measures contrary to the moral order, such arrangements would not be binding in conscience. In such a case, "authority breaks down completely and results in shameful abuse."23 *

So there is nothing to be conflicted about. God is separating the sheep from the goats and we will be judged by how we treat others.

Grace and peace be with you.

-David Lamb, Virginia Beach

 

[ThinkingSapien]

While I don’t agree with mistreating them, or viewing them less than human, I struggle a bit with knowing where I should stand on this issue. If my parish wanted to give canned food to illegal immigrants, possibly even shelter, I’d feel conflicted.

Read Proverbs 25:21 and feel conflicted no longer.

 

[VeritasLuxMea]

I really don’t wanna turn this into a let’s bash America party. But God’s honest truth here, the fact that no one else has made a connection between U.S. foreign policy in Latin America in the 20th century and this current crisis kind of scares the wits out of me.

I don’t know why that’s surprising to me because, like, we kinda just got out of a war that the U.S. started that led to millions of deaths in Iraq, that country is crumbling all over again and no one’s really talking about it. So, if we can’t even think about that then I don’t know why I would expect anyone to be thinking about U.S. foreign policy in Latin America, but OK… it is what it is.

 

[Hobbes42]

I really don’t wanna turn this into a let’s bash America party. But God’s honest truth here, the fact that no one else has made a connection between U.S. foreign policy in Latin America in the 20th century and this current crisis kind of scares the wits out of me.

I don’t know why that’s surprising to me because, like, we kinda just got out of a war that the U.S. started that led to millions of deaths in Iraq, that country is crumbling all over again and no one’s really talking about it. So, if we can’t even think about that then I don’t know why I would expect anyone to be thinking about U.S. foreign policy in Latin America, but OK… it is what it is.

Any criticism of American foreign policy with bring the nationalists out of the woodwork rattling their sabres.

In truth, the US has given training and aid to many military dictators who then went on to commit heinous crimes in their states. It would seem that due to the destabilization of the region that the US carried out, that the US would bear some of the burden of setting it to rights.

 

[sw85]

They most assuredly were immigrants. If the definition of a word is inconvenient, we should change our opinions instead of pretending words have different meanings. America is like an exclusive club. Everyone wants to be the last one in before everyone else is excluded.

OK, let’s cede the point. Let’s say the colonists were illegal immigrants whom the Indians admitted, en masse, imprudently into their own lands.

How’d that work out for them?

 

[pnewton]

OK, let’s cede the point. Let’s say the colonists were illegal immigrants whom the Indians admitted, en masse, imprudently into their own lands.

How’d that work out for them?

It worked out terrible for the indigenous population. Those that came to this shore were much more technologically advanced. Many came specifically to steal the land and rid themselves of the local people. The first wave of immigration had little in common with the current situation. Unless we are invaded by an advanced extraterrestrial civilization that starts limiting where we can live, that scenario will not play out again.

A better historical analogy would be the immigration of the Nineteenth Century which facilitated the industrial revolution.

 

[ThinkingSapien]

OK, let’s cede the point. Let’s say the colonists were illegal immigrants whom the Indians admitted, en masse, imprudently into their own lands.

How’d that work out for them?

The colonist refused to learn the language, got food assistance, shared the “old world diseases” and evicted the locals through force and artificial laws. Texas and some other areas were annexed into the USA from Mexico, the people that had been loving there were given the status or foreigners, and so on.

Do you have concerns any of that will happen again?

 

[AUGUSTINE1102]

This certainly a sensitive issue and I have strong feelings about it. Deacon Jeff, you are correct in the fact that the US used to be very liberal in admitting immigrants into the US. My forebearers too were from Ireland and France and yes, they too were Catholic. But it is unfair to compare then to now. There was a far greater demand for population for the USA was expanding rapidly West and there was plenty of land and need for those to populate it. Watch the movie Far and Away with Tom Cruise. But times have changed. The USA still stands as the most generous and permissive nation on earth regarding immigration. We are also the most gentle and moral. Anyone who can have the audacity to say the USA is unjust is just an idiot. We let in legally more immigrants than all of Europe and Mexico combined!!! Not too mention, those nations are for more harsh against those caught illegally entering their countries. Stories of autrocities against women and children that just do not exist here. So to say we have been unjust in anyway is silly. There is a limit on unskilled, uneducated, dependent people we need in the USA. We have more than our fairshare we do not need everyone elses. The USA according to Church teaching does have the right to be descriminate in who it lets into the USA. I also worry about the preservation of our cultural, health, and economic stability that these illegal immigrants, if given blanket amnesty, threatens.

 

[davidmlamb]

This certainly a sensitive issue and I have strong feelings about it. Deacon Jeff, you are correct in the fact that the US used to be very liberal in admitting immigrants into the US. My forebearers too were from Ireland and France and yes, they too were Catholic. But it is unfair to compare then to now. There was a far greater demand for population for the USA was expanding rapidly West and there was plenty of land and need for those to populate it. Watch the movie Far and Away with Tom Cruise. But times have changed. The USA still stands as the most generous and permissive nation on earth regarding immigration. We are also the most gentle and moral. Anyone who can have the audacity to say the USA is unjust is just an idiot. We let in legally more immigrants than all of Europe and Mexico combined!!! Not too mention, those nations are for more harsh against those caught illegally entering their countries. Stories of autrocities against women and children that just do not exist here. So to say we have been unjust in anyway is silly. There is a limit on unskilled, uneducated, dependent people we need in the USA. We have more than our fairshare we do not need everyone elses. The USA according to Church teaching does have the right to be descriminate in who it lets into the USA. I also worry about the preservation of our cultural, health, and economic stability that these illegal immigrants, if given blanket amnesty, threatens.

*If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! *
-Matthew 18:5-7

How much more a Nation that turns away little refugee children who will certainly die if sent back? This is equivalent to abortion. Your argument can also apply to abortions in America as millions of children are born to unwed mothers each year and these children add to the US population. Can we support them? Or by your reasoning are we justified to support abortions because we just don’t have the room for them? Sending back those children IS aborting them.

It is God who has brought these children to our borders and as a nation we are being put to the test. If we give these refugee children a safe home in the United States then it is God who will bless our nation. If we turn them away then as Jesus told us in the above Gospel we have done a great evil and our Nation will suffer greatly for it.

So here is my question to you, at the judgment there will be two lines of Christians, the sheep and the goats. Which line will you be standing in? Are you a sheep or are you a goat? For what we do with these children we are doing it to Jesus.

If MY PEOPLE, WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

David Lamb

 

[Yarb]

While I don’t agree with mistreating them, or viewing them less than human, I struggle a bit with knowing where I should stand on this issue. If my parish wanted to give canned food to illegal immigrants, possibly even shelter, I’d feel conflicted.

I believe in loving and helping those in need, but I’m against ignoring the laws set in place. I think it’s wrong that they’re here, and I think it’ll possibly created a mess of issue to allow them to stay here. However, I sympathize with their struggle to flee troubles in their countries, and the need to eat.

A friend of mine relocated from Minneapolis to Colorado. Politicians don’t happen to have drawn a line between here and there and said “Thou shalt not cross.” But they’ve drawn one between here and Acapulco, so people who relocate here from there are considered in some mysterious way harmful, while my friend is not. It is absurd.

In the mean time, a person raised in California who had always believed he was born there wants to apply for a passport and in that means he needs his birth certificate, so he finds out for the first time in adulthood that he was born in Mexico, and is thus considered “illegal”. Again, absurd.

Sometimes when it’s some other country (think of the Berlin Wall, or the fact that North Koreans are not even allowed to correspond with people in other countries) we recognize the absurdity easily.

 

[Chris_7]

Like many Christians, I support their desire for a new life, the dignity of work and the ability to eat. Like most Christians I support them just so long as they are not in my neighbourhood; could take my job; or release infections into the community or ,heaven forbid, affect property prices. Like most Christians I support their rights, but don’t really want to meet one. But I also support our right to live in luxury whilst the rest of the world supports my lifestyle.

t

You are suggesting that in the US/West people live in luxury and the rest of the world supports this lifestyle. Really? It is very unfortunate that even Christians fall for these invalid claims.
The West evolved for centuries, created good school system and developed science and technology besides pluralism of ideas and good governments. If today we talk about democracy, human and individual rights, is because the West crystalized those ideas.
In order to develop wealth, countries need good schools, quality information taught in those schools, good laws, respect for laws, and ethical behavior of the population - at least a large portion of it, etc. No progress can be achieved when people do not know how to communicate, how to deal with conflicts, don’t respect laws and property, do not TRUST each other.
Do you know that 2% of the population of US are farmers? They work very hard and are able to produce enough for the whole country. That is commitment, seriousness, skillfulness and risk taking.
So instead of acting like immature kids, use your talents, be responsible, teach yourself and create wealth. If government is corrupt, protest until you are heard.
Jay Richards a Catholic philosopher, an Institute for Faith, Work & Economics fellow, wrote a book called, “Money, Greed, and God: Why Capitalism Is the Solution and Not the Problem.” Highly recommend it, he deconstructs a lot of myths which poison the discussion on the topic of poverty.
Paul in the letter to the Thessalonians, told his brothers to not feed those who do not work. I found this very surprising first but I really do not think that God love idleness.

 

[RosaryCancer]

Think what Jesus would do. Would He reject the poor? Certainly not. Also, one day He will ask you if you helped those in need. If you were in their shoes and felt the way they did, I am sure you would change your mind forever.

 

[arroyofamily]

While it appears according to the media we are not letting anyone into the country, we allow 1,000,000 immigrants in legally every year. What is of concern are those coming in illegally for the purpose of making use of the public welfare system.

In all of this debate, it is missed that other nations are allowing these individuals to pass through their countries to get here. For example, how do those from Central America get into the US? By passing through Mexico in the process. It is not up to the government to provide, it wasn’t in the past and isn’t now. The Church should and the individuals should feed and clothe as part of their mission. When our children and grandchildren are bearing the burden for our government’s policies and inaction, a change in policies needs to occur.

We do need to be just in our approach. The law needs to be fair and just but it also needs to enforced. There needs to be a means for people to come into this country legally and obtain legal documentation. As in the past, they need to integrate into our society and work to make it. Too many come across the borders and fall into the welfare system and become a burden on an already overburdened education, health, and welfare system.

Our government, as other governments, is established to protect it’s citizens. When a flood of undocumented individuals are coming into our country without any oversight and regulation, our citizens are at risk. Criminals are being released in our neighborhoods who have come here for opportunity. Diseases which, previously eradicated in this country, are coming across our borders and shared with our children in classrooms where they are receiving a free education. The potential for another 9-11 increases every day. It only took 4 men to kill thousands on that day!

Mary, Assumed into Heaven, Queen of Angels, Pray for Us