How study can hinder holiness

[AlanFromWichita]

I think that reading is a required part of being a practicing Catholic.

Actually it isn’t. :nope:

Think of what did people do for the centuries when the overwhelming majority of Catholics were illiterate? When was the first Catechism printed and distributed – how could Catholics be saved?

Let’s go back over the “required” aspect. Would we agree the precepts of the Church would give us a starting point for that discussion? We’re going by the CCC, right? Anybody disagree so far?

CCC 2041
The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:

So it is “very necessary” to follow the precepts of the Church, and they constitute the minimum we have to do as Catholics (2402, 2043):

1. “You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor”
2. “You shall confess your sins at least once a year”
3. “You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season”
4. “You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church”
5. “You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church”
   The faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his own abilities.

Nowhere in the precepts does it say anything about reading, or studying Church Teachings. It isn’t there, because reading is NOT “required” by the Church. It’s said to be required by people who think they know a lot and that others who don’t study “sufficiently” are not practicing Catholics. This means that these intellectuals are placing their own “knowledge” ahead of the Church’s teachings, and they may not even know they are doing it. Hence, the whole point of this thread.

1 Cor 8:2-3
If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.

OK so this proves that reading and study are NOT “required” by the Church. But what if we do study a lot. Doesn’t that get us anything? Well, if you look down on other people because they don’t study enough, then you are acting in an unloving fashion IMO and of course we’ve all heard it from the letter read at so many weddings:

1 Cor 13:2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

So study and knowledge is neither required by the Church, nor does it guarantee salvation.

Peace and joy,
Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Consider me another who shares your sentiments. (Then again, I’ve always felt the same way about this particular section of CAF.)

Your sentiments are indeed showing. If you hold disdain toward the entire “spirituality” section, then I don’t know what else to tell you because you have already played your cards. If, contrary to Church teachings, you think it’s all “black and white” then I’m not sure I can help you. If you didn’t know anything about the spiritual journey and Divine Union, that would be OK – but to actively look down upon spirituality in favor of intellectual knowledge is not. This is a constant theme for Jesus, and yet is so hard to see from people with their academic blinders on, reinforced by fear or other obstacles from learning “true” knowledge – knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom I spoke of in my earlier post.

It’s rather ironic that all the intellectuals I read about and chat with actually APPLY what they learn. (By the way, application would be the term also used by the OP when contrasting ‘studying’ with ‘doing’.)

Then learn that reading and book study are neither required nor sufficient for salvation.

Let’s talk about APPLYING what you know. Back to contemplative prayer. Do you practice contemplative prayer? If not, then you need to APPLY your knowledge of CCC 2700-2724, and heed the term “should” in 2708.

People get on my case about asking about their prayer lives, but here you are calling down my friends and me who are non-intellectuals – or we are intellectuals but see there’s another side of life – so I’m going to defend us. If you are so good at “practicing” the lessons of the Church, get your own prayer life up to what the CCC says it “should” be then come back and call us disobedient or lazy for not being like you.

Nothing wrong at all with studying. In fact I was just studying Luke:

Luke 11:45-52
Woe to you! You are like unseen graves over which people unknowingly walk.”

Then one of the scholars of the law said to him in reply, “Teacher, by saying this you are insulting us too.” And he said, “Woe also to you scholars of the law! You impose on people burdens hard to carry, but you yourselves do not lift one finger to touch them. Woe to you! You build the memorials of the prophets whom your ancestors killed. Consequently, you bear witness and give consent to the deeds of your ancestors, for they killed them and you do the building. Therefore, the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles; some of them they will kill and persecute’ in order that this generation might be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah who died between the altar and the temple building. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be charged with their blood!

Woe to you, scholars of the law! You have taken away the key of knowledge. You yourselves did not enter and you stopped those trying to enter.”

If my crystal ball is working right, you won’t see anything in that passage applicable to the virtue of approaching spirituality from a scholarly point of view.

Now for a brief interlude – a couple “random” photos for your enjoyment:

http://affordablehousinginstitute.org/blogs/us/wp-content/uploads/blinders.gif

Mark my words. When you see someone trying to learn something, they have plans for it.

I suspect you are right on that. They may be trying humbly to learn, or they may be arrogantly trying to build a Tower of Babel. Or who knows? They may be learning to fly 747’s so they can crash them into buildings.

You are making this too easy. :knight2:

Alan

 

[mommyof4]

Just an aside: Alan, you must be an insomniac, by looking at the time stamps on your posts.

OK, carry on…:compcoff:

 

[Lady_Love]

Just an aside: Alan, you must be an insomniac, by looking at the time stamps on your posts.

OK, carry on…:compcoff:

I love it when people post funny comments and make me laugh. Thank you.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Just an aside: Alan, you must be an insomniac, by looking at the time stamps on your posts.

OK, carry on…:compcoff:

I call them “flex hours.” :hypno:

I love it when people post funny comments and make me laugh. Thank you.

Father Guido Sarducci interviews Pope John Paul II about jet lag.



.

 

[mathematoons]

This is a prime example of what we’re talking about. You think you are better than everyone else because you do all this busy work. No wonder people think Christians are unloving, intolerant and judgmental.

Look who’s talking!

I never said I’m superior for being an intellectual. My point is that some of us express our love for God by learning about Him, and that we intellectuals love God just as much as anyone else. Maybe even more so, because we don’t let our feelings guide us into heresy. To say the things you and the OP have said is unloving, intolerant, and judgmental. You’re essentially agreeing with anti-Christians who say you can’t be intellectual and Christian. People like you kept me away for the faith for years.

But still, thank you. I have been on the fence about giving up Internet forums to improve my spiritual life. You and all the other anti-intellectuals on this thread are, I think, what God has sent me to help me decide.

I have been putting up with anti-intellectualism since I was pushed into the mud in kindergarten for being too bookish. I’m almost 30 now, and there is no reason I have to put up with your hatred. End of discussion.

This is my last post. Goodbye.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Look who’s talking!

I never said I’m superior for being an intellectual. My point is that some of us express our love for God by learning about Him, and that we intellectuals love God just as much as anyone else. Maybe even more so, because we don’t let our feelings guide us into heresy. To say the things you and the OP have said is unloving, intolerant, and judgmental. You’re essentially agreeing with anti-Christians who say you can’t be intellectual and Christian. People like you kept me away for the faith for years.

You are absolutely right. We all are different parts of the Body of Christ, and sometimes I think I’m the heart yelling at the head. I used to be the head and intimidated by the heart.

Please forgive me for the negative attitude I might have shown, that it caused you to make a face.

But still, thank you. I have been on the fence about giving up Internet forums to improve my spiritual life. You and all the other anti-intellectuals on this thread are, I think, what God has sent me to help me decide.

I have been putting up with anti-intellectualism since I was pushed into the mud in kindergarten for being too bookish. I’m almost 30 now, and there is no reason I have to put up with your hatred. End of discussion.

This is my last post. Goodbye.

Dude, you can’t believe how much I feel your pain. It all started when the class cutie, Shiela Q, the most popular and smartest girl in school, turned against me. When we were in grades 5-8, the school each year chose her to be the spelling contestant for the archidiocese contest and I the math contestant. She and I had a photo taken together with our pastor Fr. Burke, with her sitting on one knee and me standing next to the other knee. (BTW I did kick butt – in 7th grade won 2nd out of 420 schools, missed one because I didn’t know that the vertical lines meant “absolute value.”)

Anyway, Sheila was talking to a few friends, and here was my introduction to “social life” v. me. They got my attention by laughing next to me and I asked Sheila, “what was funny?” Sheila gave me a face I’d never seen in my life and will never forget. * She said dryly, and clearly, while all of the other what I later learned were to be called “popular kids” looked anxiously on [turns out Shiela was the queen of them all but I didn’t know it because I knew nothing about the “social” world until many years later] “oh SIEGMAN!! YOU wouldn’t understaaaand.” and sniffed the other direction.

This thread has been good for me. : Sorry to have spilled some of the negativism.

Alan*

 

[mommyof4]

I have been putting up with anti-intellectualism since I was pushed into the mud in kindergarten for being too bookish. I’m almost 30 now, and there is no reason I have to put up with your hatred. End of discussion.

This is my last post. Goodbye.

Please show me one post on here where someone is saying “don’t study the faith.” In all honesty, I think you’re reading things into the posts that aren’t really there. I have been on these forums since 2006, and I have learned tons from people who are all over the intellectual spectrum. I just don’t see what you’re seeing on this forum.

 

[InJesusItrust]

Look who’s talking!

I never said I’m superior for being an intellectual. My point is that some of us express our love for God by learning about Him, and that we intellectuals love God just as much as anyone else. Maybe even more so, because we don’t let our feelings guide us into heresy. To say the things you and the OP have said is unloving, intolerant, and judgmental. You’re essentially agreeing with anti-Christians who say you can’t be intellectual and Christian. People like you kept me away for the faith for years.

But still, thank you. I have been on the fence about giving up Internet forums to improve my spiritual life. You and all the other anti-intellectuals on this thread are, I think, what God has sent me to help me decide.

I have been putting up with anti-intellectualism since I was pushed into the mud in kindergarten for being too bookish. I’m almost 30 now, and there is no reason I have to put up with your hatred. End of discussion.

This is my last post. Goodbye.

I have been an outsider since middle school because I love nerdy things like computers and science. I am not against these things.

On the other hand I see how scripture is right when it says that knowledge puffs up. I have caught it in myself when debating those who don’t have much knowledge.

 

[mommyof4]

I have been an outsider since middle school because I love nerdy things like computers and science. I am not against these things.

On the other hand I see how scripture is right when it says that knowledge puffs up.** I have caught it in myself when debating those who don’t have much knowledge**.

Alas, it is easy to do. Pride sneaks in in so many ways.

 

[Sirach2]

I believe the OP chose the words well for the title, which is “How study can hinder holiness.” Those of you who took offense may be enlightened if they ponder St. John of the Cross’s instruction here in the Dark Night of the Soul with respect to “spiritual gluttony.”

Note well, that he is speaking of “proficients” who are unaware of these spiritual imperfections in themselves, and not to beginners. God lovingly puts them into this night to purge them of their attachment so that they can truly become “holy.”

1. They have the same defect in their prayer, for they think the whole matter of prayer consists in looking for sensory satisfaction and devotion. They strive to procure this by their own efforts, and tire and weary their heads and their faculties. When they do not get this sensible comfort, they become very disconsolate and think they have done nothing. Because of their aim they lose true devotion and spirit, which lie in distrust of self and in humble and patient perseverance so as to please God. Once they do not find delight in prayer, or in any other spiritual exercise, they feel extreme reluctance and repugnance in returning to it and sometimes even give it up. For after all, as was mentioned, they are like children who are prompted to act not by reason but by pleasure.

All their time is spent looking for satisfaction and spiritual consolation; they can never read enough spiritual books, and one minute they are meditating on one subject and the next on another, always hunting for some gratification in the things of God. God very rightly and discreetly and lovingly denies this satisfaction to these beginners. If he did not, they would fall into innumerable evils because of their spiritual gluttony and craving for sweetness. This is why it is important for these beginners to enter the dark night and be purged of this childishness.

I am one of those who never tired of reading books. My spouse told me my eyes were going to cross. But then comes the day when one can no longer study - no relish can be found whatsoever. I think those who misread the context here and took offense without good reason, need to examine what is truly being said. NEVER should we abondon devotional reading or study until such time as God places us in the dark night. Nor should reading ever supplant our daily living the faith in spiritual or corporal good works.

God bless!

 

[JimR-OCDS]

There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven–
Ecclesiastes 3:1.

A time for study, a time for prayer.

Balance it out as best you can, but never neglect prayer.

Jim

 

[mommyof4]

I believe the OP chose the words well for the title, which is “How study can hinder holiness.” Those of you who took offense may be enlightened if they ponder St. John of the Cross’s instruction here in the Dark Night of the Soul with respect to “spiritual gluttony.”

Note well, that he is speaking of “proficients” who are unaware of these spiritual imperfections in themselves, and not to beginners. God lovingly puts them into this night to purge them of their attachment so that they can truly become “holy.”

I am one of those who never tired of reading books. My spouse told me my eyes were going to cross. But then comes the day when one can no longer study - no relish can be found whatsoever. I think those who misread the context here and took offense without good reason, need to examine what is truly being said. NEVER should we abondon devotional reading or study until such time as God places us in the dark night. Nor should reading ever supplant our daily living the faith in spiritual or corporal good works.

God bless!

Thank you for this post- great insights.

 

[mommyof4]

A time for study, a time for prayer.

Balance it out as best you can, but never neglect prayer.

Jim

Yep!

 

[CalCatholic]

Look who’s talking!

I never said I’m superior for being an intellectual. My point is that some of us express our love for God by learning about Him, and that we intellectuals love God just as much as anyone else. Maybe even more so, because we don’t let our feelings guide us into heresy. To say the things you and the OP have said is unloving, intolerant, and judgmental. You’re essentially agreeing with anti-Christians who say you can’t be intellectual and Christian. People like you kept me away for the faith for years.

But still, thank you. I have been on the fence about giving up Internet forums to improve my spiritual life. You and all the other anti-intellectuals on this thread are, I think, what God has sent me to help me decide.

I have been putting up with anti-intellectualism since I was pushed into the mud in kindergarten for being too bookish. I’m almost 30 now, and there is no reason I have to put up with your hatred. End of discussion.

This is my last post. Goodbye.

I have been monitoring this thread, I am confused, where did this come from???

 

[mommyof4]

I have been monitoring this thread, I am confused, where did this come from???

My question exactly.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I think those who misread the context here and took offense without good reason, need to examine what is truly being said. NEVER should we abondon devotional reading or study until such time as God places us in the dark night. Nor should reading ever supplant our daily living the faith in spiritual or corporal good works.

You make some great points!

I think also you have to keep in mind, that the academic mind, unless otherwise provoked, is highly trained from the time it succeeds at potty training, to use dualistic reasoning (which is good … but) to the exclusion of non-dualistic reasoning (which is bad, and which is why Jesus’ words sound like contradictions or even evasive at times). Those who move on to more advanced states, are going to have these two components in balance. Then they will see that not only are there shades of gray, there are more colors than can be counted.

The best illustration is that the more academic posters took the idea that study alone can be a problem (“all work and no play make Jack a dull boy”) and turned it around to mean we are anti-intellectual. One teacher of emotional self-control calls that “awfulizing.” We either must say study is Goood, or Baaad. WHICH IS IT? So before you can make your point, you must state which team you’re on. Then based on which team, you’re supposed to stick to the expected mantra of that team or you are accused of (gasp) flip-flopping and/or avoiding the question.

So it comes down to this. Are you going to base your relationship with God on: a) totally on things you can figure out, or b) totally rejecting anything involving thinking.

Sorry, Homey don’t play dat. Neither did Jesus when they tried to trap with him a yes/no question, He’d go “none of the above.” When they asked for a number to designate which of seven wives a man has during his lifetime, is going to be his wife in heaven, again He chose “none of the above.” In essence, in their calculating minds they thought He had a limited number of choices; but clearly God doesn’t have to color within our lines just because we think we have a mental box big enough to contain His options.

Similarly, we can’t fall into the dualistic trap of thinking we have to either be pro-intellectual or anti-intellectual. That’s like asking me to choose whether I wish to live with happiness or with health – based on the presumption that the two cannot coexist.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I have been monitoring this thread, I am confused, where did this come from???

My question exactly.

He was just grumpy because I told him to get off his high horse in This Post.

Now that he took his ball and went home, I guess he will need that horse.

Alan

 

[AnotherVoice]

Actually it isn’t. :nope:

Think of what did people do for the centuries when the overwhelming majority of Catholics were illiterate? When was the first Catechism printed and distributed – how could Catholics be saved?

Let’s go back over the “required” aspect. Would we agree the precepts of the Church would give us a starting point for that discussion? We’re going by the CCC, right? Anybody disagree so far?

CCC 2041
The precepts of the Church are set in the context of a moral life bound to and nourished by liturgical life. The obligatory character of these positive laws decreed by the pastoral authorities is meant to guarantee to the faithful the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort, in the growth in love of God and neighbor:

So it is “very necessary” to follow the precepts of the Church, and they constitute the minimum we have to do as Catholics (2402, 2043):

1. “You shall attend Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation and rest from servile labor”
2. “You shall confess your sins at least once a year”
3. “You shall receive the sacrament of the Eucharist at least during the Easter season”
4. “You shall observe the days of fasting and abstinence established by the Church”
5. “You shall help to provide for the needs of the Church”
   The faithful also have the duty of providing for the material needs of the Church, each according to his own abilities.

Nowhere in the precepts does it say anything about reading, or studying Church Teachings. It isn’t there, because reading is NOT “required” by the Church. It’s said to be required by people who think they know a lot and that others who don’t study “sufficiently” are not practicing Catholics. This means that these intellectuals are placing their own “knowledge” ahead of the Church’s teachings, and they may not even know they are doing it. Hence, the whole point of this thread.

1 Cor 8:2-3
If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, one is known by him.

OK so this proves that reading and study are NOT “required” by the Church. But what if we do study a lot. Doesn’t that get us anything? Well, if you look down on other people because they don’t study enough, then you are acting in an unloving fashion IMO and of course we’ve all heard it from the letter read at so many weddings:

1 Cor 13:2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

So study and knowledge is neither required by the Church, nor does it guarantee salvation.

Peace and joy,
Alan

Just a small point of clarification my statement was:

“I think that reading is a required part of being a practicing Catholic. Generally, anyone who wants to improve reads and then reads some more.”

I did not say that the church requires reading in order to be a Catholic.

It is still my opinion that, “There is the doing part of our faith and the learning part; we need to have a balance.” I believe that lifelong learning is part of trying to continuously improve.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Just a small point of clarification my statement was:

“I think that reading is a required part of being a practicing Catholic. Generally, anyone who wants to improve reads and then reads some more.”

I did not say that the church requires reading in order to be a Catholic.

It is still my opinion that, “There is the doing part of our faith and the learning part; we need to have a balance.” I believe that lifelong learning is part of trying to continuously improve.

Oh, hey, I totally agree with you here. :yup:

I was responding to your “think … reading … required” and I did take that as your personal opinion and not an absolutist claim, so my goal was to fill in the blanks, not tell you that you were in error. There was no error on your part, that I saw then or see now.

But taken in context especially with the rest of this post, I think we see eye to eye.

Alan