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psr13
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Well, there’s no way our entire education system will be overhauled and grades gotten rid of. But, what am I supposed to do now that I’m in college? I have to sit through classes that bore me to tears.
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Chovy
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PSR13- I was bored from Kindergarten - master’s classes. I guess I should have realized that I’d be bored in almost every meeting I attended after graduation and while doing my work most of the time. Work and school are rarely about feeling fulfilled, challenged, or entertained.
My suggestion is to look for opportunities to do other things (respectfully) while in class. I was one of those people who didn’t have to go to class to succeed, but had to go so that my attendance could be noted. I have to be doing more than one thing at a time or I’m bored out of my gourd, and listening to anyone talk about anything just isn’t going to cut it. So, bring a puzzle book, or something you have to read for another class (again, if you can do it discretely) or just do what my mom always told me an “offer it up.”
My suggestion is to look for opportunities to do other things (respectfully) while in class. I was one of those people who didn’t have to go to class to succeed, but had to go so that my attendance could be noted. I have to be doing more than one thing at a time or I’m bored out of my gourd, and listening to anyone talk about anything just isn’t going to cut it. So, bring a puzzle book, or something you have to read for another class (again, if you can do it discretely) or just do what my mom always told me an “offer it up.”
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chevalier
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You people have brought in valuable insight from various sources. I guess you can’t have a reliable outcome grade if you don’t have a reliable testing method without subjective hindrances that aren’t relevant - low intelligence is relevant in academic subjects, slow reading speed is not relevant in foreign languages (I think), drawing/writing beauty is not relevant in geometry (but it is in arts class) etc.
Also, giving outcome grades only would make a lot of young students neglect homework, regular study, practice etc and ultimately make them fail to score any well, wasting a great deal of time.
I’m beginning to think that the most important thing is clarity then, and comparability. I’ll give you a concrete example: suppose a next-level school has a GPA requirement. It’s one thing if students get rewards, grants, praise etc, but a completely different one when scales which are known to be different are treated as if they were the same (e.g. grades from different schools at one university). Or what if the grade gives some professional entitlements? Yet another absurdity in effort grades is that pretending it costs you more will earn you a better grade. In fact, hiding your knowledge can make you score better. Sometimes, teachers will give effort grades and then act as if those were an objective measure of knowledge. I really don’t like that. I don’t think it’s acceptable to create such fiction on purpose.
Also, giving outcome grades only would make a lot of young students neglect homework, regular study, practice etc and ultimately make them fail to score any well, wasting a great deal of time.
I’m beginning to think that the most important thing is clarity then, and comparability. I’ll give you a concrete example: suppose a next-level school has a GPA requirement. It’s one thing if students get rewards, grants, praise etc, but a completely different one when scales which are known to be different are treated as if they were the same (e.g. grades from different schools at one university). Or what if the grade gives some professional entitlements? Yet another absurdity in effort grades is that pretending it costs you more will earn you a better grade. In fact, hiding your knowledge can make you score better. Sometimes, teachers will give effort grades and then act as if those were an objective measure of knowledge. I really don’t like that. I don’t think it’s acceptable to create such fiction on purpose.
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dulcissima
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I wouldn’t spend too much time worrying about it. One important life lesson that everyone needs to learn is don’t expect life to be fair.
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slackernerd
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Um, Just wondering, what was your college major? No hard math or science course I have taken in college would ever pass someone on the basis of effort. My introductory calculus courses had excellent attendance and homework completion, yet the majority(60%) of the students did not pass. In my experience, college grading is all about results, not effort. Tests are generally 85-100% of the grade in my classes - not much room for filler there.
Also, college courses very rarely give extra credit. I resent the high school teachers who lied to me by grading me on the basis of effort. I learned how to pretend to try instead of learning how to study and learn the material. A student who earns an A or B in a class should know the material well enough to pass a test on it.
Effort should be part of a conduct grade, not an academic grade. This kind of grading is why states have exit exams - No one wants to hire a functional illiterate who “tried” for anything above a menial job that a dropout could fill just as well.
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slackernerd
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True, but there are programs that would challenge all but the absolutely brilliant (for example, being a physics major at MIT). I agree that grading should be based on outcomes, but did you try to challenge yourself?
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slackernerd
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Homework and studying had no effort whatsoever upon my pre-collegiate test grades because I already knew the material(k-8) or could teach myself the material without having it taught to me.
Perhaps a better approach would be to have a pre-test and post-test, and only allow students to move on after they pass the test. That way students who knew the material wouldn’t need to waste their time and those who didn’t know would actually learn it instead of being passed on for pretending to try(usually by scrawling incorrect hw down).
But again, life is not fair, but people know that. Employers only care marginally, if at all, about college gpa. They almost universally disregard high school gpa because they know it is not a reliable indicator of anything. Employers who want to know how much applicants know use interviews and professional exams(civil service, actuarial, engineering, etc) - things that people who were passed for “trying” would not pass anyway.
Also, I intentionally pretended to be stupid in jr high for the sole putpose of increasing my gpa without having to do anything. I think effort-based grading leads teachers to judge based on things they can’t effectively evaluate if the student is faking, such as student intelligence and effort.
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slackernerd
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Again, what is your major? I find GE courses to be a total joke, but not most of my major(economics) or minor(mathematics) courses. Or, you could try to transfer to a more challenging institution or one that will accept CLEP exams instead of ge courses.
I was bored out of my skull in K-12, and I would have been bored out of my skull in college in most majors, but I picked a major and minor that I find interesting and challenging. I’m completely ready to blame the schools in K-12, but since college attendance is voluntary and people are free to choose their courses, I thing individuals have some responsibility to challenge themselves and learn how to study(since you won’t learn how to study effectively if you’re rewarded with effort grades for studying ineffectively). I handled college by gravitating toward those courses that grade primarily/solely on tests or stringently graded academic papers.
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slackernerd
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Funny - most of my college classes don’t care about attendance. In the bonehead ges that do, i just do my homework
. I could just not attend, but it’s easier to get the work I need to do done if I have nothing else productive to do.
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psr13
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My major is known to be an easy one yes, but since I plan on teaching the subject, it is best for me to major in it. I am transferring to a more difficult university for next year and plan to take mainly math/science classes for my electives. Hopefully this helps. Also, it is correct that I don’t know how to study. I have never studied for a test, which is why I don’t know how. The reason I do so well is that I remember things the first time I hear of see them. So, I read it and remember it. It means I don’t have to take notes or study. I also find my major to be the most interesting one. I am another self lerner. That’s how I learned everything pretty much. Right now I’m teaching myself ancient Greek, ancient Hebrew, Finnish, and Russian. I have a good grip on Spanish. In high school I missed three weeks straight, and still had no problems passing any of my classes. This was my sophmore year, and one of the classes was considered a very difficult senior level course. I begged my mom to let me homeschool myself, but she wouldn’t let me.
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slackernerd
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I can understand that. I honestly don’t think I have the work ethic to major in math, though I will say minoring in it has greatly improved my study skills. Also I generally prefer applications over theory/proofs.
One thing to be aware of: Math and science classes geared toward nonmajors are a joke if you’re strong in those areas. I took a freshman GE astronomy class for fun and I ended up sitting through a lecture on how to use scientific notation. Worse, my classmates were wimpering and whining about how it was unreasonable to be expected to know scientific notation in a college level science class
. I did about half of the weekly online homework(only worth 10%) and only showed up to the midterms and finals. My TA knew me so little that she made me show my ID card at the final because she didn’t know who I was. I got a B+ in that class
. Sure I would have received an A if I’d done the hw, but it wasn’t worth my time. I felt much more of a sense of accomplishment from getting A’s in calculus I and II.Math/science classes geared toward majors are another story. Back when I was a chem major, I had to work like crazy to get a C in Quantitative analysis in my first term of college after effortlessly skating through AP Chemistry(I got bored in chem after awhile). Take introductory chemistry/calculus/physics (assuming you’ve thoroughly met the prereqs) if you want a challenge.
On the other hand, I’ve had to work like crazy in an upper division number theory class I’m taking in which 2/3 of my classmates are math majors. I eeked a C- on the first midterm, and I had done all the homework and attended every class. Instead of whining to the professor about how hard I was trying(though I did ask for a few clarifications for some things I didn’t understand), I hired a tutor to help me improve my proof-writing skills and I got an A on the second midterm.
So yes, in this case genuine effort improved my grade. Had I simply continued what I was doing, I’d be at a C/D level, get to have a pity party, and still not know the material. I really don’t think that qualifies as “trying”. I think that college should provide humility.
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gmarie21
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Well, I had started out as a math major and my sophomore year picked up the double major of math and history, junior year I dropped the math (I was working full time and couldn’t keep up with the Calc IV work plus my job, so one had to go). By mid-junior year I was officially (and graduated as such) a history major with a political science minor (oh, and I got a b.s. so I took many advanced math, stat., and science courses). Also, I went to four colleges and managed to still graduate in four years (yes, those years were consecutive).
As for my college math and science courses…well, stats and physics were no-brainers for me and I only showed up when my grade would be affected (test days and days when assignments were due). As for Calc. classes, they weren’t easy for me, and I went for extra help ALL THE TIME. Most of my exams I either got a D or F and my other assignments I usually got Cs (maybe a B here and there but nothing significant). I was shocked when I got Cs for my final grades in Calc., but my professors worked with me weekly (and also knew I was getting helped by other math majors who “got it” more easily than I) and I guess that I am assuming that I passed with Cs because of my effort because by the way the grades should have been weighed, I should have recieved Ds or Fs as my final grades.
As for history, I had a Constitutional history professor who prided himself on failing students (the first day of class he told us exactly how many would drop out by the drop out date, how many would receive Fs, Ds, Cs, Bs, and As). That class was more of a challenge than any Calc course I ever took, but I was determined to not fail that class because I enjoyed the material so much. Well, when I wasn’t understanding something, I would go to the professor for help so that I could understand. Well, I got a C as my final grade in that class (which was much better than the many Ds and Fs in that class of 23). Same thing with an African history course I took. So, I learned that if you are struggling and seek help in understanding, teachers/professors will usually not fail you (I’m sure that there are exceptions to the rule).
By the way, these three examples took place at three different universities, so one university, or one department can’t be blamed.
Were there classes that I blew off and still got As and Bs in? Absolutely. I am not proud to say that I skipped many classes in college and didn’t study but still managed to get As and Bs because to me the material was too easy to learn (not just gen. ed. courses but 300, 400, and graduate courses). Of course, my objective in grade school, high school and college were to learn, not to get the grade. I always admired historical figures who were true scholars, not so much worried about the grade or job, but about gaining the knowledge, that was what was important to them. I desired the knowledge, not the grade, and when I was struggling with the knowledge I went for help, not so that I could improve my grade (I didn’t assume a professor wouldn’t fail me if I sought help) but so that I personally had that knowledge and full understanding.
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chevalier
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Indeed. Besides, even in effort grading, a child consistently putting a lot more effort in the class than the average may still at some point drop to the average or somewhat above average, but below the previous levels. That’s a straight analogy to the knowledgeable kid who still excells but less than before. Admittedly, something should be done in that situation, but I believe chiming in with below average grades for above average results is not the answer.
I didn’t pretend to be stupid… I corrected teachers. I actually corrected a jury panel member in a competition once. Sometimes I got myself in trouble.
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slackernerd
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Interesting Gmarie. I never developed the impression that I would pass calculus without knowing the material based on effort, but I was never in a position in which I was failing a class and “showing” the professor I was trying. If anything I actually downplay my effort because I WANT to be graded on results rather than my perceived effort; otherwise, I would feel that my degree didn’t mean anything. I actually tend to work more efficiently and effectively in college classes in which homework isn’t collected because then I can adjust my work to my needs.
While I don’t have a real problem with hw or attendance bumping, say, a C+ test grade to a B- overall grade, I would not want to hire an engineer who passed calculus solely on the basis of effort and who did not understand calculus well enough to interpret mathematica results, say. I certainly would not want to hire an engineer who was sloppy with calculations and measurements, but again, that’s where professional exams come into place.
As for my astronomy class, I honestly don’t believe I would have learned any more if I had come to class, so I feel no shame in blowing it off. I certainly don’t think that effort is taken into account in large lecture all classes.
I think that assuming one will pass if one tries in college is a very very bad thing to tell high school students. I think effort should be about working toward results, not about eliciting pity from the teacher. The majority of college bound students with B averages in high school will not graduate from college. A college degree has to be more than a certificate of attendance to mean anything to me.
Imagine that you were placed into a second grade class with your present level of knowledge. Would you feel it was unfair to be downgraded because you completed everything without trying very hard? How is it any different with a real second grader who can read at a college level being downgraded for the same reason?
Edit to add:
I understand that you didn’t assume that effort alone would make you pass, but I assume you know that kind of thinking would be detrimental to learning for those who were working hard but ineffectively.
Also, I have no respect for some classmates who “show they try” by turning in homework that they copied out of the instructor solutions pdf. I will admit that a significant number of people cheating and pretending that it’s “effort” has soured me on the concept of effort-based grading.
And yeah, I also thought stats was easy
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While I don’t have a real problem with hw or attendance bumping, say, a C+ test grade to a B- overall grade, I would not want to hire an engineer who passed calculus solely on the basis of effort and who did not understand calculus well enough to interpret mathematica results, say. I certainly would not want to hire an engineer who was sloppy with calculations and measurements, but again, that’s where professional exams come into place.
As for my astronomy class, I honestly don’t believe I would have learned any more if I had come to class, so I feel no shame in blowing it off. I certainly don’t think that effort is taken into account in large lecture all classes.
I think that assuming one will pass if one tries in college is a very very bad thing to tell high school students. I think effort should be about working toward results, not about eliciting pity from the teacher. The majority of college bound students with B averages in high school will not graduate from college. A college degree has to be more than a certificate of attendance to mean anything to me.
Imagine that you were placed into a second grade class with your present level of knowledge. Would you feel it was unfair to be downgraded because you completed everything without trying very hard? How is it any different with a real second grader who can read at a college level being downgraded for the same reason?
Edit to add:
I understand that you didn’t assume that effort alone would make you pass, but I assume you know that kind of thinking would be detrimental to learning for those who were working hard but ineffectively.
Also, I have no respect for some classmates who “show they try” by turning in homework that they copied out of the instructor solutions pdf. I will admit that a significant number of people cheating and pretending that it’s “effort” has soured me on the concept of effort-based grading.
And yeah, I also thought stats was easy
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