How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

[PerryJ]

I don’t know if you have heard of How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas E. Woods Jr. PhD.

The premise of the book is that the what we learned in schools - that the middle ages were the dark ages, full of ignorance and suppression, not in the least part maintained by the Catholic Church - is false, and not just false but wholly and completely false. The author tells us that contrary to what we think, in fact, it is the Catholic Church that is responsible for all/much that is good and right in the modern world. He writes that the Church formed or originated:

-Western Art
-Western Music
-Modern Economics
-International Law
-Western Law
-Charity
-Hospitals
-Astronomy
-Higher Education
-Science
-and so on
-and so on
-and on and on.

Occasionally he’ll making a passing observation that the Catholic Church was less than 100% perfect but, you know, the rest is so great that all Western civilization is their doing.

First, I found the book very informative. I picked up lots of facts and a perspective I didn’t have before. However I thought it was less a book and for the most part more an awfully long list of all the many wonderful things the author could dig up.

Second, I think it is disputable that everything on the list belongs on the list. For example he attributes the University system in general and Oxford in particular to the Catholic Church. I think the Greeks were onto higher learning long before the Catholics and the Oxford website paints a different history than does the author.

Third, every one and their dog was Catholic. Of course most things, good or bad, had to arise from under the Catholic umbrella.

I don’t think the book is too balanced and certainly is a homer’s / apologist’s dream but I do recommend it to learn new things and get a different perspective, especially if you are not Catholic.

Western Civilization isn’t perfect but it’s the best we have (imho) and we owe the Catholic Church much.

I believe a couple of your premises are in error. First the Greeks did have higher learning; however, they did not have a true University System.

Westerners often make the mistake that Western Civilization was supreme to other civilizations. In fact for many centuries the Mulsims had a greater society in almost every facet. They in fact almost eliminated Christianity from the worold several times. The Church nutured science, art etc like no other government or organization. The Churches view on science etc. is the biggest reason we exceeded the muslims. In doing this the Church defined Western thought and our civilization. Not everyone was Catholic. In fact far from it. More than half of the known world had been conquered and forcibly converted from Christianity. Once you see that most of the world was not Catholic I believe you will understand that the book is very balanced. Especially if you read the path of the Muslims and there conscience choice to refute advancement. Their choice to revert back to the old ways of religious intolerance and isolationism. (Isolationims in thought not action as they were always a faith focused on conquering.)

Note also the crusades were hardly the west attacking some poor muslims in the East. The Muslim civiliation was very advanced and, as stated almost conquered all of Christendom. They even sacked Rome onc and almost did it several more times. The Crusades were a response to Christian being persecuted for going to the Holy Lands. Christian were being mutliated and tortured. (I always find it interesting when people believe this hatred in the Middle East started with Bush.) The Crusades obviously at times became corrupt; however, the intial thought was to protect Christians and to fight off mulsim conquerors. This was the first time that Christendom had the power to fight back in many centuries.

 

[PerryJ]

Not to nitpick the original list but Astronomy was around for thousands of years before Jesus was even a gleam in his daddy’s eye.

The Catholic Church was major sponsor of astronomy and really took it out of pagan idealogy and brought it to science. The Catholic Church sponsored many astronomer and prior to the telescope being perfect used their Church to test astronomical theories. In fact Copernicus was a Catholic clergy. The Catholic’s sponsored Kepler even though he was a protestant.

Before anyone respond with nonsense about Galileo please read about it. What you have heard and reality are probably not the same.

 

[PerryJ]

While the Catholic Church has, no doubt, contributed to Western Civilization in huge ways, it would be more honest and intellectually honest to say that the Protestant Reformation shaped the Western World in a greater way.

The Roman Catholic Church suppressed secular science, secular art, secular literature, and exploration of ideas outside of religion in general. It wasn’t until Luther came along that Europeans discovered they had religious freedom of choice. With that came the idea that secular is not necessarily a dirty word. Sciences flourished, artwork for the first time could express daily living, literature and poetry took off like wild fire, and the rise of nations came out of the disordered chaos of the Middle Ages. We have the protestants to thank for the idea of nationalism, resurrecting democracy from the Greeks, seperating church and state, the Bill of Rights, the American Revolution, the French Revolution, on and on. Without the Reformation, none of these things would have nor could have taken place.

Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, Mark Twain, Thomas Payne, and Abraham Lincoln would have been burned at the stake for the many things they said about the Church, criticisms of the Bible, and personal opinions they had theologically. I happen to disagree a great deal with the crazy deism of Thomas Jefferson, the cynical and doubtful thoughts Franklin had about the miracles of Christ, and the downright heretical thoughts of John Adams! Mark Twain was a real cynic and believed very little of scripture. He thought that Christianity was best kept in a museum. HOWEVER, what if these men, who happen to have been theologically pretty crazy, had not been born? They contributed in huge ways to our Western society. Only the Reformation could have given them a safe place to express their talents and their flawed views.

Western Civilization was also hugely influenced by the Greeks and Romans, both pagan cultures, more than by the Roman Catholic Church. Our ideas of warfare (read all the books of Dr. Victor Davis Hanson) and strategies are mostly Greek in nature. Our capitalistic enterprises inspired by Athens. Our republican government inspired by Rome (republic period).

Western Civilization has inherited many religious ideas from the Catholic Church but many of the things the West actually discarded from Rome are what made her great.

Wow, I have never heard so many blatant myths proposed in one paragraph.

The Catholic Church did not supress science;other than in some isolated times. They embraced and financed higher educated. The first Universities were sponsored by the Catholic Church. They bought telescopes for astronomers. They have around 20 fathers of science. I am sure you have heard of Mendel. In fact the Protestant Reformation with Luther and Calvin were diametrically opposed to astronomy. Both believe in witch craft and the killing of witches. Calvin killed more people in his little town than any Catholic every did. If I remember correctly it was 6 percent of Geneva. Kepler a Protestant came to the Catholic Church to pursue his academics.

The art of war can hardly be defined by the Romans innovative ffor the time; however, others were already more advance. It certainly was not a focal point at later dates. The concept of naval war in Roman times was grappling, ramming and hand to hand combat. Hardly used in later centuries.

Roman military tacits were based upon organizational strength. Specifically the use of the shield as protection. Creating phalanxes, manuvering phalanxes and even using pointed phalanxes to drive the enemy normally to the left. In fact Ghengis Kahn’s military strategy was much more effective and advanced then Romes. Kahn counquered, I believe four times the land mass the Romans ever conquered and he did it 25 years. His use of the bow and arrow and quick strikes could be better likened to the use of the military tank than any Roman achievement.

The French Revolution was not from Protestants. It was based upon enlightenment and secular thought. In fact many believe that the Masonist, anti-christian organization, was the group that created the environment that caused the Revolution. Before you respond that many of our Founding Father were masonist and were christians, I freely admit that was true. The French; however, were different. The masonist in Europe were not Christian.

Our republican government is based upon Isiah and the Bible.

Almost every Founding Father believes that the US was to be based upon Christian values. In fact I can quote everyone of them making such a statement. The thought that they believed in separation of Church and state and that meant the government should not be ruled by Christain values is nonsense that is being promoted by people with an agenda. It is simply not true

I could go on and on; however, I would suggest reading more history. Or pick different authors. People have been giving you false information. None of what you said is even close to the truth. As always I can post secular sources to prove all of my points. I do not mean to be harsh. I struggle with these same myths being proposed on this site.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

PerryJ,
In fact the Protestant Reformation with Luther and Calvin were diametrically opposed to astronomy. Both believe in witch craft and the killing of witches.
So Luther didn’t like astronomy? Big deal? I said the REFORMATION opened the way for science, not Martin Luther.!
The first Universities were sponsored by the Catholic Church.
What a fallacy! What about Plato’s “Academy” in 385 B.C.? China, India, and Byzantine Christians had universities far predating Roman Catholic patronage.
hey bought telescopes for astronomers.
Yeah, they bought telescopes but when folks proposed heliocentrism or any notion that the center of the galaxy isn’t the Earth, the Church didn’t react nicely. They sure were nice to Galileo, too!

Calvin killed more people in his little town than any Catholic every did.
Yeah, not a great guy for executions. But at least Mary Tudor never killed anybody, huh? And the Spanish Inquisition was really a love-in And the way the Roman Catholic armies of the pope sacked and pillaged the East on the way back from the Crusades was interesting, too

The concept of naval war in Roman times was grappling, ramming and hand to hand combat. Hardly used in later centuries.
Didn’t I say the GREEKS and Romans were the true forerunners of Western combat? And you’re missing my point. I never said that hand-to-hand, phalanx, ramming combat is what we gleaned from the Greeks. Our strategy comes from the Greeks and Romans. Our tactics, values, organization, and strategic vision are of the Greek and Roman heritage. Do you seriously think that Themistocles, Alexander, Epaminondas, Leonidas, Pericles, Demosthenes, etc. have not played a huge role in military history and inspiration in our modern warfare schools of thought? I was blessed enough to have Dr. Victor Davis Hanson for my professor of classical Greek Warfare in college. He is THE leading authority on the Greco-Roman combat heritage. Go read up on him. Also, keep in mind that the medievel world lived off of the flesh of the classical age. They didn’t learn military strategy in a vacuum. If you want to split hairs, heck, the Chinese invented gun powder. But how have they, apart from “The Art of War” by Sun Tzu, inspired us militarily? Genghis Kahn?

Our republican government is based upon Isaiah and the Bible.
You seem like you have a keen intellect and are very learned. I commend you. But this statement is flat-out absurd. Our republican form of government was inspired by the Greeks, Romans, the Magna Carta, and the freedom unleashed in the reformation.
Almost every Founding Father believes that the US was to be based upon Christian values. You are living in a fantasy world if you think that all the founding Fathers had Christian values! Wow! Jefferson was NOT a Christian. He was a deist and a unitarian for a time. He was very hostile to scripture! Jefferson once said:
“Christianity has become the most perverted system that ever shone on man…Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and imposters led by Paul, the first great corruptor of the teachings of Jesus.” Does that sound like the thoughts of a Christian man?
Or how about another “Christian” man, John Adams: “The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”
Or how about Thomas Paine?
“It is the duty of every true Diest to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.”
More John Adams:
" As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion …"
Article 11, Treaty between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary.

Remember that the founding colonies of the U.S. were originally both venture capitalists and religious pilgrims, secular and religious. And most of the folks that did inspire a Christian heart into America you must admit were protestant, not Catholic.

I could go on and on; however, I would suggest reading more history.
IHow kind of you!! And of course, it must all agree with your assessments /COLOR]
People have been giving you false information. None of what you said is even close to the truth. I do not mean to be harsh. QUOTE]

My friend, I find this last comment highly insulting. I am a student of history. It is my passion and I nearly majored in it in college. I do nothing but read history. It is a hobby and no one in my life has ever said such a thing to me. Your comment implies you have a depth of knowledge that I do not have. Very condescending. None of what you have said comes close to the truth as well so it’s a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. If you believe that the Book of Isaiah inspired the Boston Tea Party, the Revolution, Thomas Paine’s “Common Sense,” the U.S. Constitiution which was written in deist terms, or that Greeks and Romans played no role in our military heritage, you need to do a bit more reading yourself. I notice you said to me, “people have obviously given you false information.” Who are these “people” of which you speak? It implies that I’ve had to ask individual folks for information and am not smart enough to do my own research, reading, study, and other explorations into history. If you do not mean to be harsh you’ve failed miserably in your attempt. You most definitely don’t have to agree with me but please don’t partronize me as some pathetic novice. Peace.

 

[Snow]

I believe a couple of your premises are in error. First the Greeks did have higher learning; however, they did not have a true University System.

Westerners often make the mistake that Western Civilization was supreme to other civilizations. In fact for many centuries the Mulsims had a greater society in almost every facet. They in fact almost eliminated Christianity from the worold several times. The Church nutured science, art etc like no other government or organization. The Churches view on science etc. is the biggest reason we exceeded the muslims. In doing this the Church defined Western thought and our civilization. Not everyone was Catholic. In fact far from it. More than half of the known world had been conquered and forcibly converted from Christianity. Once you see that most of the world was not Catholic I believe you will understand that the book is very balanced. Especially if you read the path of the Muslims and there conscience choice to refute advancement. Their choice to revert back to the old ways of religious intolerance and isolationism. (Isolationims in thought not action as they were always a faith focused on conquering.)

Note also the crusades were hardly the west attacking some poor muslims in the East. The Muslim civiliation was very advanced and, as stated almost conquered all of Christendom. They even sacked Rome onc and almost did it several more times. The Crusades were a response to Christian being persecuted for going to the Holy Lands. Christian were being mutliated and tortured. (I always find it interesting when people believe this hatred in the Middle East started with Bush.) The Crusades obviously at times became corrupt; however, the intial thought was to protect Christians and to fight off mulsim conquerors. This was the first time that Christendom had the power to fight back in many centuries.

It wasn’t my premise. It was the premise of the author of the book, but I appreciate your feedback.

 

[Cinette]

PerryJ,
In fact the Protestant Reformation with Luther and Calvin were diametrically opposed to astronomy. Both believe in witch craft and the killing of witches.
So Luther didn’t like astronomy? Big deal? I said the REFORMATION opened the way for science, not Martin Luther.!

…

The Reformation also opened a period of extreme spiritual confusion. The evidence is there for all to see!

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Now despite my belief that the Protestant Reformation had a huge role in shaping Western Civilization (which it did), the Catholic Church did have an enormous impact on Western Civilization as well.

The Catholic Church:

preserved the classical writings of antiquity from Plato to Socrates to Virgil to Augustine, on and on…Without the Catholic Church these writings would doubtless have perished or become lost

created a myriad of beautiful cathedrals, pieces of art, and religious buildings that are unrivaled, period

played a role in protecting Europe from the forces of Islam (although the church actually threatened Charles Martel for wanting to use Church moneys to build an army to ward off the Moors lol)

kept Europe together when it was in ashes from barbarian onslaughts

gave us amazing men like Thomas Aquinas, Venerable Bede, Mendel, etc.

made classical Greco-Roman writings cool again

kept Christianity free of crazy heresies

fought off moral relativism in Europe (which is alive and well there today!)

supported universities across Europe

etc. etc.******

 

[Cinette]

Now despite my belief that the Protestant Reformation had a huge role in shaping Western Civilization (which it did), the Catholic Church did have an enormous impact on Western Civilization as well.

The Catholic Church:

preserved the classical writings of antiquity from Plato to Socrates to Virgil to Augustine, on and on…Without the Catholic Church these writings would doubtless have perished or become lost

created a myriad of beautiful cathedrals, pieces of art, and religious buildings that are unrivaled, period

played a role in protecting Europe from the forces of Islam (although the church actually threatened Charles Martel for wanting to use Church moneys to build an army to ward off the Moors lol)

kept Europe together when it was in ashes from barbarian onslaughts

gave us amazing men like Thomas Aquinas, Venerable Bede, Mendel, etc.

made classical Greco-Roman writings cool again

kept Christianity free of crazy heresies

fought off moral relativism in Europe (which is alive and well there today!)

supported universities across Europe

etc. etc.******

architecture, science, agriculture, philosophy, literacy, libraries, and, and, and…

 

[notsmart]

Schools, hospitals, yes the list could go on…
However the hospitals may all have to shut down soon, because they won’t have a choice in the matter when BO signs Foca.
I suggest you read the Scandal of the Evangelical mind.

Now despite my belief that the Protestant Reformation had a huge role in shaping Western Civilization (which it did), the Catholic Church did have an enormous impact on Western Civilization as well.

The Catholic Church:

preserved the classical writings of antiquity from Plato to Socrates to Virgil to Augustine, on and on…Without the Catholic Church these writings would doubtless have perished or become lost

created a myriad of beautiful cathedrals, pieces of art, and religious buildings that are unrivaled, period

played a role in protecting Europe from the forces of Islam (although the church actually threatened Charles Martel for wanting to use Church moneys to build an army to ward off the Moors lol)

kept Europe together when it was in ashes from barbarian onslaughts

gave us amazing men like Thomas Aquinas, Venerable Bede, Mendel, etc.

made classical Greco-Roman writings cool again

kept Christianity free of crazy heresies

fought off moral relativism in Europe (which is alive and well there today!)

supported universities across Europe

etc. etc.******

 

[Cinette]

Why dont you talk to some of those that were imprisoned because of their faith, in fact I know a free book you can get online called “tortured for Christ” it may enlighten you

If there were Church buildings and people were tortured for Christ then it follows that Christianity was established in Russia before communism.

 

[PerryJ]

PerryJ,

Our republican government is based upon Isaiah and the Bible.
You seem like you have a keen intellect and are very learned. I commend you. But this statement is flat-out absurd. Our republican form of government was inspired by the Greeks, Romans, the Magna Carta, and the freedom unleashed in the reformation.
Almost every Founding Father believes that the US was to be based upon Christian values. You are living in a fantasy world if you think that all the founding Fathers had Christian values! Wow! Jefferson was NOT a Christian. He was a deist and a unitarian for a time. He was very hostile to scripture! Jefferson once said:

I aplogize for the offense.

I will now refute your points one by one. The exclusion will be that Romans and Greeks did impact military history; however, my point is they were hardly the only ones.

Founding Fathers: You will see that even the three branches of government are based upon the Bible

John Adams:
“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” --October 11, 1798
“I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen.” December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson
“Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell.” [John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |

Samuel Adams
“ He who made all men hath made the truths necessary to human happiness obvious to all… Our forefathers opened the **Bible **to all.” “American Independence,” August 1, 1776. Speech delivered at the State House in Philadelphia]

“ Let divines and philosophers, statesmen and patriots, unite their endeavors to renovate the age by impressing the minds of men with the importance of educating their little boys and girls, inculcating in the minds of youth the fear and love of the Deity… and leading them in the study and practice of the exalted virtues of the **Christian **system.” [October 4, 1790]
John Quincy Adams: Is it not that the Declaration of Independence first organized the social compact on the foundation of the Redeemer’s mission upon earth? That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity"?
–1837,
**Elias Boudinot: **“ Be religiously careful in our choice of all public officers . . . and judge of the tree by its fruits.”
**Charles Carroll **- signer of the Declaration of Independence
" Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure…are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments."
Benjamin Franklin: “ God governs in the affairs of man. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid? We have been assured in the **Sacred Writings **that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this. I also believe that, without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel” –Constitutional Convention of 1787 | original manuscript of this speech
“In the beginning of the contest with Britain, when we were sensible of danger, we had daily prayers in this room for Divine protection. Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered… do we imagine we no longer need His assistance?” [Constitutional Convention, Thursday June 28, 1787]
In Benjamin Franklin’s 1749 plan of education for public schools in Pennsylvania, he insisted that schools teach “the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern.”
In 1787 when Franklin helped found Benjamin Franklin University, it was dedicated as “a nursery of religion and learning, built on Christ, the Cornerstone.”
Alexander Hamilton:
• Hamilton began work with the Rev. James Bayard to form the Christian Constitutional Society to help spread over the world the two things which Hamilton said made America great:
(1) Christianity
(2) a Constitution formed under Christianity.
“The Christian Constitutional Society, its object is first: The support of the Christian religion. Second: The support of the United States.”
“For my own part, I sincerely esteem it [the Constitution] a system which without the finger of God, never could have been suggested and agreed upon by such a diversity of interests.” [1787 after the Constitutional Convention]

 

[PerryJ]

John Hancock:
• “In circumstances as dark as these, it becomes us, as Men and Christians, to reflect that whilst every prudent measure should be taken to ward off the impending judgments, …at the same time all confidence must be withheld from the means we use; and reposed only on that God rules in the armies of Heaven, and without His whole blessing, the best human counsels are but foolishness… Resolved; …Thursday the 11th of May…to humble themselves before God under the heavy judgments felt and feared, to confess the sins that have deserved them, to implore the Forgiveness of all our transgressions, and a spirit of repentance and reformation …and a Blessing on the … Union of the American Colonies in Defense of their Rights [for which hitherto we desire to thank Almighty God]…That the people of Great Britain and their rulers may have their eyes opened to discern the things that shall make for the peace of the nation…for the redress of America’s many grievances, the restoration of all her invaded liberties, and their security to the latest generations.
“A Day of Fasting, Humiliation and Prayer, with a total abstinence from labor and recreation. Proclamation on April 15, 1775”
Patrick Henry:“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]
“The Bible is worth all other books which have ever been printed.”
**John Jay:“ **Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer **Christians **for their rulers.”
Samuel Johnston “It is apprehended that Jews, Mahometans (Muslims), pagans, etc., may be elected to high offices under the government of the United States. Those who are Mahometans, or any others who are not professors of the Christian religion, can never be elected to the office of President or other high office, [unless] first the people of America lay aside the Christian religion altogether, it may happen. Should this unfortunately take place, the people will choose such men as think as they do themselves.
[Elliot’s Debates, Vol. IV, pp 198-199, Governor Samuel Johnston, July 30, 1788 at the North Carolina Ratifying Convention]
James Madison“ We’ve staked our future on our ability to follow the Ten Commandments with all of our heart.”
“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.” [1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia]

At the Constitutional Convention of 1787, **James Madison proposed the plan to divide the central government into three branches. He discovered this model of government from the Perfect Governor, as he read Isaiah 33:22;
“For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver,
the LORD is our king; **
James McHenry – Signer of the Constitution
Public utility pleads most forcibly for the general distribution of the Holy Scriptures. The doctrine they preach, the obligations they impose, the punishment they threaten, the rewards they promise, the stamp and image of divinity they bear, which produces a conviction of their truths, can alone secure to society, order and peace, and to our courts of justice and constitutions of government, purity, stability and usefulness. In vain, without the Bible, we increase penal laws and draw entrenchments around our institutions. Bibles are strong entrenchments. Where they abound, men cannot pursue wicked courses, and at the same time enjoy quiet conscience.

 

[PerryJ]

Jedediah Morse:
“To the kindly influence of** Christianity** we owe that degree of civil freedom, and political and social happiness which mankind now enjoys. . . . Whenever the pillars of Christianity shall be overthrown, our present republican forms of government, and all blessings which flow from them, must fall with them.”
Thomas Paine:“ It has been the error of the schools to teach astronomy, and all the other sciences, and subjects of natural philosophy, as accomplishments only; whereas they should be taught theologically, or with reference to the Being who is the author of them: for all the principles of science are of divine origin. Man cannot make, or invent, or contrive principles: he can only discover them; and he ought to look through the discovery to the Author.”
“ The evil that has resulted from the error of the schools, in teaching natural philosophy as an accomplishment only, has been that of generating in the pupils a species of atheism. Instead of looking through the works of creation to the Creator himself, they stop short, and employ the knowledge they acquire to create doubts of his existence. They labour with studied ingenuity to ascribe every thing they behold to innate properties of matter, and jump over all the rest by saying, that matter is eternal.” “The Existence of God–1810”
Benjamin Rush:
• “I lament that we waste so much time and money in punishing crimes and take so little pains to prevent them…we neglect the only means of establishing and perpetuating our republican forms of government; that is, the universal education of our youth in the principles of **Christianity **by means of the Bible; for this Divine Book, above all others, constitutes the soul of republicanism.” “By withholding the knowledge of [the Scriptures] from children, we deprive ourselves of the best means of awakening moral sensibility in their minds.” [Letter written (1790’s) in **Defense of the Bible in all schools in America]
**• “Christianity **is the only true and perfect religion.”
• “If moral precepts alone could have reformed mankind, the mission of the Son of God into our world would have been unnecessary.”
"Let the children who are sent to those schools be taught to read and write and above all, let both sexes be carefully instructed in the principles and obligations of the Christian religion. This is the most essential part of education”
Letters of Benjamin Rush, “To the citizens of Philadelphia: A Plan for Free Schools”, March 28, 1787
Justice Joseph Story“ I verily believe Christianity necessary to the support of civil society. One of the beautiful boasts of our municipal jurisprudence is that Christianity is a part of the Common Law. . . There never has been a period in which the Common Law did not recognize Christianity as lying its foundations.”

Noah Webster:
“ The duties of men are summarily comprised in the Ten Commandments, consisting of two tables; one comprehending the duties which we owe immediately to God-the other, the duties we owe to our fellow men.”
“In my view, the** Christian** religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government ought to be instructed…No truth is more evident to my mind than that the Christian religion must be the basis of any government intended to secure the rights and privileges of a free people.”
[Source: 1828, in the preface to his American Dictionary of the English Language]
Let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers just men who will rule in the fear of God [Exodus 18:21]. . . . If the citizens neglect their duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted . . . If our government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the laws. [Noah Webster, The History of the United States (New Haven: Durrie and Peck, 1832), pp. 336-337, 49]
“The Bible was America’s basic textbook
in all fields.” [Noah Webster. Our Christian Heritage p.5]

George Washington “…reason and experience both forbid us to expect, that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle…”

“ It is impossible to rightly govern the world without **God and Bible.” **“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” [speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]
"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian" [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]
During his inauguration, Washington took the oath as prescribed by the Constitution but added several religious components to that official ceremony. Before taking his oath of office, he summoned a Bible on which to take the oath, added the words “So help me God!” to the end of the oath, then leaned over and kissed the Bible.

James Wilson:"Christianity is part of the common law"

 

[PerryJ]

So Luther didn’t like astronomy? Big deal? I said the REFORMATION opened the way for science, not Martin Luther.!
they bought telescopes for astronomers.
Yeah, they bought telescopes but when folks proposed heliocentrism or any notion that the center of the galaxy isn’t the Earth, the Church didn’t react nicely. They sure were nice to Galileo, too!

The truth about heliocentrism and the Church

What occured was Copernicus was a low level cleric. His theory was fully accepted by the Pope as a theory. During this time the Church actively pursued science. In fact Churches were used to study the universe prior to telescopes becoming more advanced. (They would track sunlight etc through the dome of the Church.) The Pope warmly welcomed Galileo to meet with him. They became friends and the Pope supported him. Galileo urged the Pope to pronounce his theory to be law and change the wording of the Bible. The Pope refused. Their friendship became strained as Galileo continued to push the issue. Galileo published a play about the subject. One of the lead characters was called Simplico. Simplico rejected Galileo’s theory in the play. Many thought that he was accusing the Pope of being a simpleton. In this era it was a common method to attack a person of note. The Pope became angry with Galelio and put him in the care of the Medici family. Note this is in this same time frame as the Reformation; in which, Luther and others were attacking the Church. At this time the Popes had a lower tolerance for public ridicule. The Medici family was one of the richest and most powerful families at the time. Him being with the Medici’s was certainly not a hardship. Galileo could continue his work in other areas. He in fact published several more theories before his death. It should be noted that Galileo’s theory was proven wrong by Kepler within his own lifetime. Galileo even thought the cause of the tides was the movement of the earth, making the oceans to slosh back and forth. The Pope never rejected heliocentrism. (He rejected stating that it should be a law and the Bible should be changed to fit this theory.) In fact it was embraced when Copernicus and Kepler, a Protestant, published their versions. It was also embraced when Galileo first published his version of it. It was Galileo’s attacks against the Pope and his desire to change the Bible that caused the problem. It should be noted that two of Galileo’s daughters became nuns. One left with a mental inllness. The other remained a nun her whole life. Galileo remained a Catholic his whole life even though he could have become a Protestant.

The Galileo affair is just one big myth. It should be noted in the century prior to Galileo there was some Church and Protestant backlash to heliocentrisim. It was not just the Church. Luther and Calvin were also strongly against heliocentrism.

I would not mistake why the Galileo affair is brought up so often. It is to attack Christianity and to portray Christians as anti-science. This is often seen in discussions about evolution and intelligent design. The goal is to show Christianity as foolish. The attack is not just against Catholics. It is to undermine all of us Protestants and Catholics alike.

 

[PerryJ]

The first Universities were sponsored by the Catholic Church.
What a fallacy! What about Plato’s “Academy” in 385 B.C.? China, India, and Byzantine Christians had universities far predating Roman Catholic patronage.

How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization by Thomas Woods pg 47 - 48

"The university was an utterly new phenomenon in European history. Nothing like it had existed in ancient Greece or Rome. The institution that we recognize today, with its faculties, course of study, examinations, and degrees as well as the distinction between undergraduate and gradute study comes to us from the medieval world. The Church developed the university system because, according to historian Lowrie Daly, it was “the only institution in Europe that showed consistent interest in the preservation and cultivation of knowledge.”

Aside from the Church’s intellectual role in fostering the universities, the papacy played a central role in establishing and encouraging them. Naturally, the granting of a charter to a university was one indication of his papal role. Eighty one universities had been established by the time of the Reformation. Of these, thirty three possessed a papal charter only, fifteen a royal charter or imperial one, twenty possessed both, and thirteen had none. I addition, it was the accepted view that a university could not award degrees without the approbation of pope, king or emperor."

Only the Churches degree was held out to the whole world. The others only applied to their kingdom.

For more information concerning the Reformation and how it was very much against science. It is a fallacy to attack the Church and to pretend the Reformation supported science. It just isn’t true. Luther and Calvin, the leaders of the early Reformation, were very much against Heliocentrism.

The Scientific Revolution in National Context by Roy Porter Mikulas Teicu pg 98 - "Of Luther tishreden; which , ridiculed Heliocentrism.

Science and Tehcnology in World History Page 213 - Luther and Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe did pose objections (to Heliocentrism)

Seveteenth Cenrtury Art and Arhcitecture by Ann Harris pg 1 - Both Calvin and Luther denounced heliocentrism.

I put this one in because it shows how the diversity of people that acknowledge the Protestant’s objections of heliocentrism.

Note that Copernicus was a Catholic cleric. If he did his work in Calvin’s Geneva he would have probably been burned at the stake for being Catholic and proposing theories against their interpretation of the Bible. He probably would have also burned him at the stake for his theory. Calvin executed 58 people for not following his doctrine.

The books below I have read.

Witchcraft in the Southwest Marc Simmons – Page 8
“Those inquisitions carried out by John Calvin in 1545 resulted in 31 executions for witchcraft in the city of Geneva.”

Witch Hunting in the Southwest – Eric Midelfort Page 73
“Geneva in the years 1542 – 1545 some 40 person were found guilty of witchcraft and executed.”

History of Political Ideas Eric Voegelin, Athanasios Moulakis, David Walsh, David L. Morse – Page 276 “John Calvin committed 58 executions and 76 banishments”

This in the small population of Geneva; which, only had between 13,000 and 15,000 people.

 

[PerryJ]

Calvin killed more people in his little town than any Catholic every did.
Yeah, not a great guy for executions. But at least Mary Tudor never killed anybody, huh? And the Spanish Inquisition was really a love-in

Bloody Mary executed around 290 people, and if I recall correctly, oversaw 5 million people. Calvin executed 53 out of between 13,000 and 15,000 residents of Geneva. Calvin was much more of a killer than Boody Mary.

The death toll for all Inquisition; which, there were three majors one, was around 5,000 people. This was over a period of several hundred years. I have seen some sources claim more deaths than people existed at the time. My understanding is medieval scholars are verifying actual records to get more up to date numbers. The majority of these were from the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition was really a persecution of the Jewish people by the Spanish monarchy. It was terrible in the sense that the Inquisition could not be used against non-Christians. The Spanish Monarchy would often force convert the Jewish person then accuse them of not believing in Christ torture them and execute them. The Pope did approve the Inquisition; which was wrong. He saw that is was not proper and issued a papal bull against the Inquisition. (The local Catholic Churches were sometimes used; however, they were given direction by the Monarchy) The Spanish Monarchy put pressure on the Pope and he rescinded the Papal Bull. He did this because at the time Islam was threatening all of Christendom and the Pope believed he needed the Spanish Monarchy for protection. (Not a good reason; however, he did it.)

What is interesting is that the Catholic Faith was the first to place limits on torture. (Again this is not good; but, it was an improvement.) Some will argue that Genghis Khan actually put the first limits on torture. During the Spanish Inquisition torture was not to exceed fifteen minutes and could only be performed once. This was obviously abused. The Pope did limit the torture. Again it is not good; but, it was an improvement. Even at 5,000 deaths the Inquisition was terrible and our Church was responsible. One of the many failures people within our Church have committed.

The persecutions between Catholics and Protestants after the Reformation are to numerous to count. It was bloody and terrible for both sides. Clearly not right. Much of it was political in nature. Prior to the Reformation the Pope had indirect control of several Monarchies. Once the Refromation happened the Monarchies and people within Monarchies fought for power. Many used faith as an excuse to fight, kill and seize control. This included Queen Elizabeth and Mary.

Inquisitions and persecutions have to be segregated in the sense that Inquistions were sanctions by a Papal decree. Jews were often persecuted because of rumors about them killing babies and drinking their blood. The Popes actually issued many Papal Bulls against the persecution of the Jewish people. Catholics at lower levels continued these barbaric acts though. Many books attempt to include racist killings as being sanctioned by the Church when in fact the reverse was true. Did the Church ever persecute Jews? Yes, however the number of papal bulls issued to protect the Jews is quite extensive.

 

[PerryJ]

My friend, I find this last comment highly insulting. I am a student of history. It is my passion and I nearly majored in it in college. I do nothing but read history. It is a hobby and no one in my life has ever said such a thing to me. Your comment implies you have a depth of knowledge that I do not have. Very condescending. None of what you have said comes close to the truth as well so it’s a bit of the pot calling the kettle black. If you believe that the Book of Isaiah inspired the Boston Tea Party, the Revolution, Thomas Paine’s “Common Sense,” the U.S. Constitiution which was written in deist terms, or that Greeks and Romans played no role in our military heritage, you need to do a bit more reading yourself. I notice you said to me, “people have obviously given you false information.” Who are these “people” of which you speak? It implies that I’ve had to ask individual folks for information and am not smart enough to do my own research, reading, study, and other explorations into history. If you do not mean to be harsh you’ve failed miserably in your attempt. You most definitely don’t have to agree with me but please don’t partronize me as some pathetic novice. Peace.

I again apologize for my comments. I do overreact to what I perceive as the intentional re-writing of history that I believe is now occurring. I believe that secularist are trying to redefine our world and country with anti-christian sentiments. This agenda is focused to continue the path of expanding abortion, gay marriage, euthanisia etc. To discredit and divide our country from Christianity is key to accomplishing their agenda.

As my posts show the vast majority of Founding Fathers believed that our country had to be based upon Christian values. Note it is not the piece of paper that makes our country great. It is the values that support the paper.

The Catholics took the Greek and Roman school as expanded the scope and intellect of teaching. the Catholic Church created the Rule of Lawe and the Scientific Method.

Note also the Catholic Church was the first to create orphanges and hospitals globally. Hence the name from the Hospitaliers becoming Hospitals.

Blanket statements concerning the Crusades are difficult to make. The first crusade was a result of Muslims murdering and butchering Christian citizens making pilgrimages to the Holy Land. The term butchering is not an understatement. They were murdering Christians in the most horrific ways. It was thought to be a noble cause to protect Christians trying to see were Christ was born and died.

Let us also put this into context, remember the entire Muslim world was Christian. Muhammad was a conqueror that forced these areas to convert to be Muslim. Muslims continued to force their way towards the west. At times the west was threatened by being totally conquered by the Muslim world. (How did we react after 911?) The Muslim world was not full of peace loving people that were innocent. Nor were they a minor power of the age. With that said most of the Crusades were started with an intent to free the Holy Land. Again because the Muslim world was murdering innocent Christian citizens making pilgrimages to the Holy Land. Once started individuals that actually lead the Crusades often did horrendous acts that can not be forgiven. As in war both sides committed these acts, the fourth Crusade probably being the worst example for Christendom. Many of the leaders of the Crusades did it for the glory of God and to protect Christians.

Again, I apologize.

 

[Cinette]

I again apologize for my comments. I do overreact to what I perceive as the intentional re-writing of history that I believe is now occurring. I believe that secularist are trying to redefine our world and country with anti-christian sentiments. This agenda is focused to continue the path of expanding abortion, gay marriage, euthanisia etc. To discredit and divide our country from Christianity is key to accomplishing their agenda.

As my posts show the vast majority of Founding Fathers believed that our country had to be based upon Christian values. Note it is not the piece of paper that makes our country great. It is the values that support the paper.

The Catholics took the Greek and Roman school as expanded the scope and intellect of teaching. the Catholic Church created the Rule of Lawe and the Scientific Method.

Note also the Catholic Church was the first to create orphanges and hospitals globally. Hence the name from the Hospitaliers becoming Hospitals.

Blanket statements concerning the Crusades are difficult to make. The first crusade was a result of Muslims murdering and butchering Christian citizens making pilgrimages to the Holy Land. The term butchering is not an understatement. They were murdering Christians in the most horrific ways. It was thought to be a noble cause to protect Christians trying to see were Christ was born and died.

Let us also put this into context, remember the entire Muslim world was Christian. Muhammad was a conqueror that forced these areas to convert to be Muslim. Muslims continued to force their way towards the west. At times the west was threatened by being totally conquered by the Muslim world. (How did we react after 911?) The Muslim world was not full of peace loving people that were innocent. Nor were they a minor power of the age. With that said most of the Crusades were started with an intent to free the Holy Land. Again because the Muslim world was murdering innocent Christian citizens making pilgrimages to the Holy Land. Once started individuals that actually lead the Crusades often did horrendous acts that can not be forgiven. As in war both sides committed these acts, the fourth Crusade probably being the worst example for Christendom. Many of the leaders of the Crusades did it for the glory of God and to protect Christians.

Again, I apologize.

G K Chesterton said that historians do what even God can’t do - change the past!

 

[FollowTheWay]

Which is it - Intellectual Dishonesty or Ignorance of History? Neither will get you anywhere with Catholics who are mostly well educated. Inform yourself, then perhaps you won’t look so silly. You might try a library…Robin
of the Wichita Hood

If you were well educated you wouldnt be catholic.

The point I was getting into was not that there werent Christians, the point that I was getting into is the “real” church, the “real” church was underground and kept secret. The orthodox church was controlled by Russia, you had a limit on the size of your congregation, you were to report of any members of the underground church, you had to preach what they told you, you were generally not allowed to have any children because they wanted to mold the young minds towards athiesm. But you must of known all this since your so well educated.

 

[ROBIN97]

If you were well educated you wouldnt be catholic.

The point I was getting into was not that there werent Christians, the point that I was getting into is the “real” church, the “real” church was underground and kept secret. The orthodox church was controlled by Russia, you had a limit on the size of your congregation, you were to report of any members of the underground church, you had to preach what they told you, you were generally not allowed to have any children because they wanted to mold the young minds towards athiesm. But you must of known all this since your so well educated.

Yes. I did know all that. By the way. The “Real” Church in Russia was underground, and was the Catholic Church. Just as the “Real” Church in China is the Catholic Church and is Underground. And Yes, Catholics are the best educated group in the world. We’re not afraid of education. We started the University System. And the Scientific Method. And Hospitals. And Western Law. Preserved Early Christianity. Gave the world the Bible. Discovered the New World. Saved Europe from Islam. Turned Astrology into Astronomy, Discovered Genetics…Studied Human Anatomy and developed medicine. All these things were done by Catholics. The secret is out…

Robin