How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization

[ralphinal]

FollowtheWay,
Simple question: are Catholics and Orthodox people members of a Christian church?

Not are individual ones Christian, but is their faith system a Christian one?

 

[mercygate]

If you were well educated you wouldnt be catholic.

Please tell me you did not mean this.

 

[ralphinal]

Please tell me you did not mean this.

I think he did, just like I think he will not outright say that Catholics and EO Churches are not Christian.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I again apologize for my comments. I do overreact to what I perceive as the intentional re-writing of history that I believe is now occurring. I believe that secularist are trying to redefine our world and country with anti-christian sentiments. This agenda is focused to continue the path of expanding abortion, gay marriage, euthanisia etc. To discredit and divide our country from Christianity is key to accomplishing their agenda.

As my posts show the vast majority of Founding Fathers believed that our country had to be based upon Christian values. Note it is not the piece of paper that makes our country great. It is the values that support the paper.

Blanket statements concerning the Crusades are difficult to make. The first crusade was a result of Muslims murdering and butchering Christian citizens making pilgrimages to the Holy Land. The term butchering is not an understatement. They were murdering Christians in the most horrific ways. It was thought to be a noble cause to protect Christians trying to see were Christ was born and died.

Again, I apologize.

Hey PerryJ,

Thanks for the great replies. I agree with much that you say. My only contentions are that protestantism has played a significant role in the development of our civilization. Some of those developments helped, some have hindered. I really do think, from the hundreds of quotes that I’ve also read and can list (but I don’t want to nauseate everybody with more quotes, we have enough! LOL) that many of the founding fathers were very good men with good will and a passion for freedom BUT they were not doing it all with Christ Jesus at the forefront like most folks on the right wing content. I happen to be a conservative but I will tell you that most of these guys were no more religious than Bill Clinton. We hear Obama and other politicians constantly quote the scriptures and mention God but it’s more of a political necessity than heart-felt based on their actions. Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Payne, Franklin, on and on, these guys have made so many audacious comments about Jesus that it’s plain as day that they saw God more from a deist, self-centered worldview than what you and I wish they had proclaimed. There is the religious side of the Puritans embedded in our country that has influenced our sensibilities so much! But there are also the financial, secular capitalists that have had equal power. On the Mayflower there were two types of passengers: capitalist opportunists who were very very secular on their way to Jamestown, and pilgrim protestant faithful come to build a new community to Christ. I think America has both of those types of citizens today. I wish we had more of the faithful element but ultimately Americans vote their pocketbooks and financial betterment. The election showed us all that the capitalist secular folks have a louder voice right now than the pilgrim religious. And another point I’m sticking to is that America was built on protestantism, period. Catholicism had no significant role in the architecture of our constitution or heritage. Many great Catholics have played a role in our nation but the actual government, the growth of the nation politically in its early stages is totally protestant. The Judeo Christian values you speak of are there, but in protestant and deistic terms I feel. Catholicism IMO was never more relevent as a world force than under John Paul II. JPII changed the world and helped bring down the iron curtain and the USSR with Reagan through his influence, passion, and holy stubbornness. I think Catholicism was a fairly quiet entity on the world map until John Paul II.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Let me re-state that if you were well educated you wouldnt be in any religion, because the Lord is bigger than any religion can hold. Really the underground church was catholic??, the underground was not a religion it was a people. It is your precious religion that holds you back from a full blessing of the Lord. The Underground church in Russia and China would be protestant, mostly because not only was the catholic church under control by them but also they need to have their buildings and their many articles, chinaaid.org/persecution/the-underground-church/.

How about we talk about your precious religion timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article574768.ece, or maybe we should talk about the new interest to allow others to worship their Gods in many of the churchs of europe, or how bout the pope being a nazi youth, in fact we could talk about the asherah pole in the middle of st. peters square or the many sun wheels in their symbols, I dont even want to get started on the Mary shrines.

And as for catholics being the the most intellegent
did you know that 31% of catholics get abortions while only 27% of non-religious women. Or that according to the Barna group 64% of catholics believe the devil does not exist and is only a symbol.

-(for everyone else that reads this, I am not trying to bash Catholics, because christians are no better)

The point im trying to get to is to get rid of religion for relationship

Get rid of the religion for relationship

 

[dzheremi]

Followtheway, please be charitable in your arguments. Saying that Catholics are something other than Christian and calling the Pope a nazi is not appropriate at all. Remember that you are on a Catholic forum and you are not entitled to post here, but do so with implicit agreement that you will follow forum rules.

 

[benedictus2]

The death toll for all Inquisition; which, there were three majors one, was around 5,000 people. This was over a period of several hundred years. I.

Protestant Inquisition tortured and killed many more people in a much shorter time.

And here is a quote from The Protestant Inquisition

**"What makes, however, Protestant persecutions specially revolting is the fact that they were absolutely inconsistent with the primary doctrine of Protestantism - the right of private judgment in matters of religious belief! Nothing can be more illogical than at one moment to assert that one may interpret the Bible to suit himself, and at the next to torture and kill him for having done so! **

 

[benedictus2]

If you were well educated you wouldnt be catholic.

Aahh, but as one great ex- Protestant by the name of John Henry Newman wrote: To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant.

So never ever pick up a history book, you just might do the unthinkable

And you know what is interesting, the main theme that runs through most of the conversion stories I’ve read is that these people converted when they really started studying and reading .

Never, ever read G K Chesterton. He converted because he found in the Chruch truth and reason.

 

[FollowTheWay]

This is really akward, they deleted my next post I forgot what I had said anyways. I guess it doesnt really matter much anyway, for you do not have ears to hear.

I was gonna mention to benedictus that the holy war was catholic, but these happened during a specific time and by specific people

 

[ralphinal]

This is really akward, they deleted my next post I forgot what I had said anyways. I guess it doesnt really matter much anyway, for you do not have ears to hear.

I was gonna mention to benedictus that the holy war was catholic, but these happened during a specific time and by specific people

Is the Catholic Church a Christin Church?

Is the Orthodox Church Christian?

 

[benedictus2]

This is really akward, they deleted my next post I forgot what I had said anyways. I guess it doesnt really matter much anyway, for you do not have ears to hear.

I was gonna mention to benedictus that the holy war was catholic, but these happened during a specific time and by specific people

What holy war are you talking about?

 

[benedictus2]

This is really akward, they deleted my next post I forgot what I had said anyways. I guess it doesnt really matter much anyway, for you do not have ears to hear.

We hear you alright. You’re just not talking sense.

First, get your facts straight.

Second. Make coherent arguments free of such thing as "if you were educated you wouldn’t be catholic’ for I could easily pick a dozen people in this forum who are way more logical and most likely more educated than you but that doesn’t count for good rational arguments.
Since you are so “well educated” you surely would have heard of a fallacy called ad hominen.

So enough of that.

 

[FollowTheWay]

Lets study the statement I made “If you were educated you wouldnt be catholic”

The first church was Jewish for thousands of years, then Jesus came along and died and when he did he destroyed that church, now the church is the body of Christ that is his believers. Jesus’s death tore the veil so that we could have relationship and not religion. Then the catholic church came around an was built out of brick and morter and is no different than that which Jesus destroyed. So, again I will say that if you were educated you would get rid of religion for relationship.

You never understood this because you were too busy trying to scold me, remember the fruits of the spirit and “gently restore”

 

[benedictus2]

Lets study the statement I made “If you were educated you wouldnt be catholic”

The first church was Jewish for thousands of years, then Jesus came along and died and when he did he destroyed that church, now the church is the body of Christ that is his believers. Jesus’s death tore the veil so that we could have relationship and not religion. Then the catholic church came around an was built out of brick and morter and is no different than that which Jesus destroyed. So, again I will say that if you were educated you would get rid of religion for relationship.

You never understood this because you were too busy trying to scold me, remember the fruits of the spirit and “gently restore”

Have you actually studied Christian History? Right, I thought not.

Until you can substantiate your claims with facts then please stop making sweeping statements.

Facts please. Then we can really start talking.

 

[benedictus2]

Then the catholic church came around an was built out of brick and morter and is no different than that which Jesus destroyed. So, again I will say that if you were educated you would get rid of religion for relationship.

You never understood this because you were too busy trying to scold me, remember the fruits of the spirit and “gently restore”

You know what, for a Christian you are conveniently overlooking the Bible.

Let’s start with Matthew 16

When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 11 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Where ever in the Bible did Christ say "for you to be saved you must abandon religion and instead have a personal relationship with me?

 

[benedictus2]

Jesus’s death tore the veil so that we could have relationship and not religion.

So you do not have a religion right? Therefore you are not Christian. But then you don’t sound atheist or agnostic either so what are you?

 

[FollowTheWay]

You know what, for a Christian you are conveniently overlooking the Bible.

Let’s start with Matthew 16

When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi 9 he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, 10 others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16 11 Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.” 17 Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood 12 has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. 18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, 13 and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Where ever in the Bible did Christ say "for you to be saved you must abandon religion and instead have a personal relationship with me?

Im glad you brought this up, because Peter translates from greek to english as a small pebble while the rock that Jesus was talking about translates as a large substructure, and from our understanding that the church is the body of Christ as he told us, it is on this statement and his people he will build his church. Also during where they were standing was on a boulder and the gates of hedes was believed to be a river. It is always the context that makes scripture so important.

You are right I do not have a religion, but that does not mean I am not christian or catholic, but I am those in their real meaning (Christ-like,part of the universal body of Christ)

 

[dzheremi]

Ah, yes…FollowTheWay’s church of “I Am Whatever I Say I Am”…officiated by Fr. Humpty Dumpty…

Your version of Christianity seems to revolve a lot around what you think. I don’t see how that can be healthy. Remember Jeremiah 17:9 and what it says about the deceitfulness of the heart.

 

[benedictus2]

Im glad you brought this up, because Peter translates from greek to english as a small pebble while the rock that Jesus was talking about translates as a large substructure, and from our understanding that the church is the body of Christ as he told us, it is on this statement and his people he will build his church. Also during where they were standing was on a boulder and the gates of hedes was believed to be a river. It is always the context that makes scripture so important.

You are right I do not have a religion, but that does not mean I am not christian or catholic, but I am those in their real meaning (Christ-like,part of the universal body of Christ)

Aah, from your understanding. And why may I ask should your understanding be better and more reliable than that of the Church Fathers who are so much closer in time to the apostles?

Why should your blinkered view of history be believed?

That phrase in aramaic reads : Thou art Kepha and upon this kepha I will build my Church. No misunderstanding there.

Yes indeed the Church is the Body of Christ and until 1500 there was only One Body of Christ until Martin Luther, Calvin and the rest decided to chop the Body of Christ into pieces.

No religion. Not Christian, not catholic, not agnostic, not atheist. Just one person who calls himself FollowTheWay a law unto himself.

Hey, if you are a true follower of Christ you will have a religion, that is called in general terms, Christian. You probably do not belong to a denomination but you still have a religion.

That you say you do not have a religion does not make sense. That means you take your pick, you follow a little bit of Islam here, Hindu there, Buddhism every now and again, Christ a lot of times perhaps. Which then means that you do not follow Christ at all because to truly follow Christ is to exclude all other.

So what is your authority, the Bible? But sweetheart, the Catholic Church gave the world the Bible?

About them standing on the boulder you are almost right there. In Ceasaria Philippi there is a big rock upon which stood the chruch/temple dedicated to Pan. This was a pagan site. And the pagans believe that in the river flowing nearby is where souls travel to hades or something like that (I’ve forgotten exactly but I will get back to you on that).

 

[ralphinal]

Is the Catholic Church a Christin Church?

Is the Orthodox Church Christian?