How the Catholic Soul Reconciles Illegal Immigration

[Isaacsdad]

Crime is always disproportionately represented by those at the bottom of the socio economic spectrum. They grow up in an environment of violence and are driven by the same sorts of desires that fuel all of us.

Pick up the phone and call tech support for a utility, you’ll speak with someone in India who will ‘work for less’. Go to Walmart and try to find a single good made with American hands. Be careful in the garment section, “Made in the USA” can mean made in Saipan, part of an American Protectorate. It is exempt from our labor laws and hosts Chinese ‘guest’ workers who live in guarded camps.

If the government sets laws that rewards large corporations for shipping jobs overseas, and makes it easy for corporations to avoid even paying US tax, then those people have a much bigger influence on job opportunitites than illegals scrambling for jobs.

Look at Walmart, it systematically exploited illegals and then, when caught, was allowed to dictate its own ‘penalty’.

Or, look at Haliburton. One subsidiary has received $2.4B in no bid contracts. It has served rancid food and tainted water to US troops and demonstrably defrauded US taxpapers. That is our money, our sons and daughters fighting, and our collective security. Does it not bother you that such a small percentage of that money went to creating jobs for Iraqi’s (which would have helped our security) or US citizens (who have seen anemic job growth for 7 years and now job contraction)?

Instead, the cheapest labor in the world is pulled in and no one even balks when the company moves to Dubai to avoid even paying us back in rightful taxes! The Church says we have a right and an obligation to the development of a socially just economy. We should not, as Christians, be in a position where our own basic human needs must come at the cost of those even less fortunate than ourselves. Basic security and sustanence should not be a zero sum game, particularly in the wealthiest nation in human history.

Not only has Papa Benedict been an outspoken critic of the poor treatment of immigrants. He has staunchly criticized the effects of globalization on the world. Unfortunately, these are filtered out by many Catholics in this country, who want to pick and chose for their own agenda. Even the speech at the UN, which was the major point of the visit, criticized unilateral action and criticized all forms of militarism and economic exploitation that violate rights (hmm, I wonder who he was addressing.) All of this was censored out by the press, which wanted to dig up the sex scandal and political conservatives, who have tried to exploit Papa’s stance on abortion and marriage for their much broader agendas. Being Catholic neither conforms one completely to the left or right. You always have to speak for those with no voice. And in this case it needs to be directed towards showing compassion towards immigrants.

 

[Dee_Geils]

… and picking and choosing which laws one will obey or not … allowing certain humans to be treated like helpless, ignorant children … as opposed to TEACHING all humans they are capable and honorable ?

 

[AliciaCL]

Isaacsdad, I’d love to see your “research” which shows illegals put more into the economy than they take out in free medical care, free school education, and free welfare. Literally not possible since they are working for substandard wages in the first place. And, if they are contributing taxes, they ipso facto, are committing identify theft, a crime. You can’t pay taxes without a legal social security number. What about the rule of law? Why is it OK for some to flout the law – because they are poor?

 

[Swan]

Crime is always disproportionately represented by those at the bottom of the socio economic spectrum. They grow up in an environment of violence and are driven by the same sorts of desires that fuel all of us.

Pick up the phone and call tech support for a utility, you’ll speak with someone in India who will ‘work for less’. Go to Walmart and try to find a single good made with American hands. Be careful in the garment section, “Made in the USA” can mean made in Saipan, part of an American Protectorate. It is exempt from our labor laws and hosts Chinese ‘guest’ workers who live in guarded camps.

If the government sets laws that rewards large corporations for shipping jobs overseas, and makes it easy for corporations to avoid even paying US tax, then those people have a much bigger influence on job opportunitites than illegals scrambling for jobs.

Look at Walmart, it systematically exploited illegals and then, when caught, was allowed to dictate its own ‘penalty’.

Or, look at Haliburton. One subsidiary has received $2.4B in no bid contracts. It has served rancid food and tainted water to US troops and demonstrably defrauded US taxpapers. That is our money, our sons and daughters fighting, and our collective security. Does it not bother you that such a small percentage of that money went to creating jobs for Iraqi’s (which would have helped our security) or US citizens (who have seen anemic job growth for 7 years and now job contraction)?

Instead, the cheapest labor in the world is pulled in and no one even balks when the company moves to Dubai to avoid even paying us back in rightful taxes! The Church says we have a right and an obligation to the development of a socially just economy. We should not, as Christians, be in a position where our own basic human needs must come at the cost of those even less fortunate than ourselves. Basic security and sustanence should not be a zero sum game, particularly in the wealthiest nation in human history.

Everything you said - and your previous post, too!

 

[Dee_Geils]

… and there by treating one segment of God’s people as helpless, ignorant and not able to function as capable, honorable human beings … thank you, Alicia !

 

[AliciaCL]

Nobody here is advocating mistreatment of illegals in the U.S. It’s a complex problem. However, neither should we be guilted into a theory that we are required as Christians to simply open the floodgates, let anyone who wants to be a citizen, forget analysis of any economic impact, etc. At the very least, there are competing morals that have to be balanced.

 

[Swan]

Nobody here is advocating mistreatment of illegals in the U.S. It’s a complex problem. However, neither should we be guilted into a theory that we are required as Christians to simply open the floodgates, let anyone who wants to be a citizen, forget analysis of any economic impact, etc. At the very least, there are competing morals that have to be balanced.

Moral relativism?

 

[AliciaCL]

No, weighing two competing morals is not moral relativism! We have no governmental obligation whatsoever to help out illegals! None. What many are suggesting is that we have a moral obligation to find a way to assist them. I’m saying that moral obligation must be offset by our own Constitutional rights. Moral relativism is equating two ideas on a subject and giving them equal weight such as all religions are the same. Weighing two ideas means analzing which should be given greater weight and why. There is simply no argument to be made that would require us to help illegals, other than a moral argument. We have every right to do mass deportations but we realize the humanistic harm would be too great.

 

[Isaacsdad]

Isaacsdad, I’d love to see your “research” which shows illegals put more into the economy than they take out in free medical care, free school education, and free welfare. Literally not possible since they are working for substandard wages in the first place. And, if they are contributing taxes, they ipso facto, are committing identify theft, a crime. You can’t pay taxes without a legal social security number. What about the rule of law? Why is it OK for some to flout the law – because they are poor?

So where does the money there employers deduct out of their check go? Does somebody say, hey your social security number isn’t valid, heres your money back? Furthermore, many pay taxes through an ITN number at the end of the year, which anyone working in the US may file at the end of the year. So if they owe they pay it. Furthermore, since they have no valid social security #, they are inelgible for earned income credits, which is the new form of work merited welfare, that was inacted since TANF was put into effect since the 1990’s. Your limited knowledge of the welfare system and Illegals is very apparent.

 

[Dee_Geils]

I also communicate with State and Federal employees and representatives … good, good question, Issac’s Dad … If they answer your quiry, please share with me. I have asked that very question for the last 4 years and NEVER been given an answer.

I can only assume somebody is not doing their job … or not doing their job honestly.

 

[AliciaCL]

Isaacsdad, the point you can’t overcome is illegals are illegally here working in this country. My larger point who you aren’t able to counter again is that as a soverign country we are absolutely entitled to control and protect who comes into our country. We have laws that illegals are breaking, that certain businesses are breaking on a regular basis. The economic impact of 20 million people breaking federal immigration law is: a moral degredation and snubbing of the rule of law; a proliferation of a quasi-slave market; acquiescence to US busineses profiting from the law breaking; taking some jobs that would otherwise go to Americans; States paying for free medical care and education for children of illegals. The future economic and cultural threats are also obvious; huge blocks of illegals won’t or can’t learn English; won’t or can’t assimilate into American culture; should the 20 Million become citizens they’ll be entitled to SS retirement benefits. The system is already heading for insolvency; it’ll just come faster. Any claimed moral Christian obligation to help illegals has to be tempered against these points. There is a fine line between charity and suborning law breaking! It is quite clear the US public does not want to allow 20 million illegals to be allowed to become US citizens rewarding their lawbreaking. The church I think is overstating the moral obligation. It obvioiusly wants to welcome an influx of Catholics but it cannot be at the forced sacrifice of our own rights.

 

[Dee_Geils]

“Render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar’s …” Doesn’t that mean we are supposed to obey civil laws of our community?

“Neither slave nor master …” Doesn’t that mean that all human being should be treated like intelligent, capable, free-standing individuals ?

Or is it okay to assume some of God’s people are not capable of conducting themselves as dignified, law-abiding members of a human community ?

 

[Firefox]

Here is the problem: We need immigration laws to protect us from criminal aliens. I wouldn’t mind letting more people in legally, but the fact remains that illegal aliens are probably coming in illegally because they couldn’t make it legally. Criminal records are a definite reason.

Get a program for legalizing those already here, but close the border first. There needs to be a program that checks from things like criminal background, so that only hard working illegals gain legalization.

We can’t just take everyone. I notice that the same people who want amnesty and open borders flip out over wars. That is the only way we could get enough land to accommodate everyone who is oppressed.

 

[Isaacsdad]

“Render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar’s …” Doesn’t that mean we are supposed to obey civil laws of our community?

“Neither slave nor master …” Doesn’t that mean that all human being should be treated like intelligent, capable, free-standing individuals ?

Or is it okay to assume some of God’s people are not capable of conducting themselves as dignified, law-abiding members of a human community ?

I think the real Scripture here boils down to:
“Judge not lest you be judged,” which answers the question of the forum, “How the Catholic Soul Reconciles Immigration.” Anyone who is critical of Illegal immigrants is essentially saying that they would “obey” all laws if they were put in the same situation of hardship, thus they subject themselves to harsher judgement.
I am certainly not for an open border. In fact, I believe it should be sealed off and a completely and no one should be able to enter the country illegally. The fact is is that for years border enforcement has increased and wained at the need of illegals. During certain harvest seasons when field work was needed, for example, the Border Patrol would more or less look the other way.
All that proponents of immigration reform are arguing is that we needed to treat humanely those who are here. The ones who are honest and have payed their taxes and avoided trouble with the law should be allowed to stay, while the criminals need to go. In Biblical terms, immigration reform needs to separate “the wheat from the chaff.” Furthermore, future illegal immigration should once again include a fair cross section of people, so that this country returns to its principle of “Give us Your Tired, Your Poor, Your Weary.” In all, Catholics should be the most sensitive to immigrants, because no ethnic group that was prodominantly Catholic (Irish, Polls, Italians) ever immigrated to this country without substantial discrimination.

 

[puzzleannie]

the other day we were looking for news stories about immigration, here is one from fox today
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352519,00.html
bodies of migrants found floating in the water
Haitians trying to get to Florida, 20 dead, 3 found alive, one saved herself by clinging to a corpse.

as long as you did it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me.

in answer to OP’s question, and this Catholic soul and conscience, I live on the border, in fact, I live in the diocese where the majority of the “fence” is being built, and where the majority of the land is being taken from private and public entities to build the fence w/o regard for the damage to their interests. For what it’s worth, as soon as this fence is built, and it will be built, I will be the one standing on this side screaming, Mr Bush, tear down that wall.

that should also serve as my answer to the other ongoing thread “Are you a member of the Christian right?”

My actual degree is in American history, not theology, and because of my job in that field, curator of a manuscripts library with a focus on immigration history, I can tell you that the history of immigration law in this country has been one of legalized religious and ethnic bias, discrimination, applied with a force approaching cruelty, and is IMO a textbook example of laws written to be disobeyed because they enshrine and systemize acts that cry out to heaven for vengeance.

 

[Dale_M]

Here is the problem: We need immigration laws to protect us from criminal aliens. I wouldn’t mind letting more people in legally, but the fact remains that illegal aliens are probably coming in illegally because they couldn’t make it legally. Criminal records are a definite reason.

Yes, I could see why persons with a criminal record might cross the border illegally. But how big of a problem is it?

Get a program for legalizing those already here, but close the border first.

I think a guest worker program would go a long ways into getting the border under control.

There needs to be a program that checks from things like criminal background, so that only hard working illegals gain legalization.

I am not familiar with ICE. Don’t they check criminal history?

 

[AliciaCL]

Puzzleannie, this country did not cause would-be illegal immigrants to die on the high seas trying to get here. Rather the countries they left had more to do with that. Compassion for immigrants is fine. Our system allows for seeking asslym for political repression. We can’t just absorb the world, take in Dafur and anybody and everything. It’s suicidal economics. The current system is theft of the American people —mostly by the businesses and politicians who let it go on. Yes, Mexican illegals suffer but the cause is not the mean intrasigent public who refuse to let in whole countries to be citizens. It’s those who abuse them. This entire history of this country accepts people from any ethnic group. They have to assimilate however. That doesn’t mean strip themselves of their country’s culture but learn our system, language, etc. Sometimes compassion in blighsightedness. No one is advocating mistreatment but again, we are not morally required to commit hari kari just to be kind, compassionate to unfortunate. We do what we can with charities. I’d like to see law changes that allow cities, persons and churches to personally sponsor immigrants. Could you take on 10 people to sponsor? You can see the burden in even sponsoring one, medical care, housing, clothing, etc. One more point, those who say leave the illegals alone are fostering the unintended consequence of discrimination. They are endorsing the substandard illegal wages the illegals get, the law breaking of the businesses, the persistance of low level education, stuck in grunt jobs, etc.

 

[Dee_Geils]

Thank you, Alicia.

Reason and logic … or else we have … what we have, I guess.

If oppressed people will go to there nearest Catholic Church and declare their issues … I have not met a Catholic Priest yet who would not do everything he could to help.

 

[Swan]

the other day we were looking for news stories about immigration, here is one from fox today
foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352519,00.html
bodies of migrants found floating in the water
Haitians trying to get to Florida, 20 dead, 3 found alive, one saved herself by clinging to a corpse.

as long as you did it to one of the least of these, you did it to Me.

in answer to OP’s question, and this Catholic soul and conscience, I live on the border, in fact, I live in the diocese where the majority of the “fence” is being built, and where the majority of the land is being taken from private and public entities to build the fence w/o regard for the damage to their interests. For what it’s worth, as soon as this fence is built, and it will be built, I will be the one standing on this side screaming, Mr Bush, tear down that wall.

that should also serve as my answer to the other ongoing thread “Are you a member of the Christian right?”

My actual degree is in American history, not theology, and because of my job in that field, curator of a manuscripts library with a focus on immigration history, I can tell you that the history of immigration law in this country has been one of legalized religious and ethnic bias, discrimination, applied with a force approaching cruelty, and is IMO a textbook example of laws written to be disobeyed because they enshrine and systemize acts that cry out to heaven for vengeance.

I have a BS in histoy and am completing my MA in secondary ed here in Los Angeles. I do social justice work on racism issues. You could not be more correct.

 

[Swan]

As usual, it is popular to blame the victim. Ever wonder why these folks are coming up here? Much of it is a direct result of American foreign policy in Latin America.

For example: http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4705 on the results o NAFTA (see link for full story)

*Fourteen years later (after NAFTA), we see nearly the opposite. As trade between the two countries has grown, so have the huge gaps in how people live. Following NAFTA the Mexican economy went into the tailspin now known as the “tequila crisis” when its currency devalued as a result of capital flight. Years later, growth has still been much lower than expected, averaging around 2% and only 1% per capita. Even according to NAFTA apologist the World Bank, this growth "has been insufficiently high for per capita income levels in the Mexican economy to converge with those of its NAFTA partners … From this relative perspective, there has been no real progress over the last 15 years."1

Growth isn’t the only problem behind NAFTA’s failure to raise standards of living in Mexico. Job creation turned out to be another big disappointment. With over a million young people entering the job market a year, Mexico has produced less than half that number of jobs per year since NAFTA. In net terms, the situation is worse since small and medium-sized businesses that produced for the national market have gone out of business in droves. The rapid cycle of mergers and acquisitions set in motion by NAFTA’s investor clauses—in many cases, transnational corporations absorbing Mexican companies—has created some jobs but more often has driven national companies out of business and led to employee cutbacks, especially in services.
Massive agricultural imports have displaced an estimated two million farmers, as subsidized grains from the United States take over their local and regional markets. With few new jobs in manufacturing or other sectors, many of these former farmers now work in fields in California, Carolina, or Iowa.
Since NAFTA, the Mexican economy rests on four pillars: the informal economy, non-renewable resources (oil and gas), remittances from migrants in the United States, and drug trafficking. To call that a shaky foundation would be an understatement. *

We play a large role in causing the problem. Instead of focusing on folks who are simply trying to keep their children from starving, maybe we should start focusing on the folks in Washington and the business community who are profiting off the misery we’ve helped spread to other nations.