How the liturgy fell apart

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Uxor said:
How the liturgy fell apart: the enigma of Archbishop Bugnini

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Good article.

Those that believe strongly that it was not possible for Bugnini to be a Freemason should nevertheless question (1) why the lodge fathers praised him for his work so strongly (2) why the current NO sanctuary configuration so closely remembles those of the lodge meetings and (3) why acknowledged Freemasons are no longer excommunicated from the Church.

Not to change the subject, but I attended one of Fr. Lucas’ talks several years ago and he made this point: that perhaps God chose Bugnini and introduce the Novus Ordo as a way of protecting the beautiful ancient liturgy. Think about it, it may be true. If it had been only slightly altered, even every several years, one might not have noticed any real big change and therefore very few would have called specifically for the 1962 Missal. But being called NOVUS, that meant the old was archived, and therefore preserved as such.
 
BobP123 said:
Not to change the subject, but I attended one of Fr. Lucas’ talks several years ago and he made this point: that perhaps God chose Bugnini and introduce the Novus Ordo as a way of protecting the beautiful ancient liturgy. Think about it, it may be true. If it had been only slightly altered, even every several years, one might not have noticed any real big change and therefore very few would have called specifically for the 1962 Missal. But being called NOVUS, that meant the old was archived, and therefore preserved as such.
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How is this different from superstitious and misguided thinking? Why would God trick the Church into doing something destructive in order to accomplish something good? It is much more plausible that God used Bugnini to accomplish something good, despite any flaws Bugnini may have had.

In the earlier rite of Mass in the Latin Church, the people had very little apparent role. The restored rite of Mass solves that problem. The liturgy came apart, as it were, when people piled on with all kinds of bizarre sentimental agendas, and did things that the Council did not order.
 
ctos said:
How is this different from superstitious and misguided thinking? Why would God trick the Church into doing something destructive in order to accomplish something good? It is much more plausible that God used Bugnini to accomplish something good, despite any flaws Bugnini may have had.

In the earlier rite of Mass in the Latin Church, the people had very little apparent role. The restored rite of Mass solves that problem. The liturgy came apart, as it were, when people piled on with all kinds of bizarre sentimental agendas, and did things that the Council did not order.
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What do you mean “very little” apparent role? Did you ever try sitting or talking when the national anthem is played? Are you not participating by just standing at attention?

What do you mean by the “restored” rite? Taking some selected first century practices to justify some modern concoction which is supposed to work all the time? Gee, why didn’t they think of that before? Hmmm, let me see, they did a century ago and guess what? It didn’t work then (either).

As far the liturgy coming apart, that is too painfully obvious. But where exactly did it start? I think a long time before Vatican II. The documents of Vatican II were just a formality as far as the architects/designers of the New World Order were concerned. Call them Masons if you wish or not. Doesn’t matter. They had their own agenda as you have admitted. Abuse of power if you ask me and they will have to stand before God like the rest of us.
 
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  			Originally Posted by **ctos** 					[forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1962375#post1962375) 				
  		*... The liturgy came apart, as it were, when people* piled on with all kinds of bizarre sentimental agendas, and did things that the Council did not order.
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Who exactly is “PEOPLE”? And what bizarre agendas are you speaking of? “PEOPLE” doesn’t really mean anything. It’s just too general.
Was it the SSPX or the FSSP, or who?
 
TNT said:
Who exactly is “PEOPLE”? And what bizarre agendas are you speaking of? “PEOPLE” doesn’t really mean anything. It’s just too general.
Was it the SSPX or the FSSP, or who?
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The laity. Shhh!!
 
TNT said:
Who exactly is “PEOPLE”? And what bizarre agendas are you speaking of? “PEOPLE” doesn’t really mean anything. It’s just too general.
Was it the SSPX or the FSSP, or who?
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Don’t you remember that old Alka-Seltzer commercial? The robot with the indigestion says, Gee, I wish I was people. 🙂
 
BobP123 said:
Don’t you remember that old Alka-Seltzer commercial? The robot with the indigestion says, Gee, I wish I was people. 🙂
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I was thinking more of changing the words of the Age of Aquarius to the Age of the Laity.

Oh, no, now it’s stuck in my mind.

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the age of the laity
the age of the laity
laity
laity
 
paramedicgirl said:
I was thinking more of changing the words of the Age of Aquarius to the Age of the Laity.

Oh, no, now it’s stuck in my mind.

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars

This is the dawning of the age of the laity
the age of the laity
laity
laity
http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/leb.gif
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Sung by Association, wasn’t it?

Your rendition makes sense. Remember Fr. Sarducci, when, if you send Rome a check for $2000, you will get a clock with all the signs of the Zodiac on it?
 
BobP123 said:
Sung by Association, wasn’t it?

Your rendition makes sense. Remember Fr. Sarducci, when, if you send Rome a check for $2000, you will get a clock with all the signs of the Zodiac on it?
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I don’t remember him, no. The zodiac? Wonder if he knew about the first commandment/
 
BobP123 said:
Fr. Guido Sarducci used to appear on SNL and Smothers Brothers. He was a comedian trying to show how ridiculous (and hypocritical) the Church was. Didn’t do it as seriously as George Carlin.

Your point on the First Commandment well-taken.
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So he wasn’t a REAL Catholic priest? I never watched SNL. I know, I know - I was soooo deprived.😉
 
Paramedicgirl - Now I can blame it on you if I will spend all night with that stupid tune in my head.😛

BobP123 - I remember when I came to the States and my collegues used to make fun of me callling me Father Guido Sarducci. I did not know that such a thing could be allowed on TV. :o
 
Cristiano said:
Paramedicgirl - Now I can blame it on you if I will spend all night with that stupid tune in my head.😛

BobP123 - I remember when I came to the States and my collegues used to make fun of me callling me Father Guido Sarducci. I did not know that such a thing could be allowed on TV. :o
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This is the dawning of the age of the laityyyy!
 
Cristiano said:
Paramedicgirl - Now I can blame it on you if I will spend all night with that stupid tune in my head.😛

BobP123 - I remember when I came to the States and my collegues used to make fun of me callling me Father Guido Sarducci. I did not know that such a thing could be allowed on TV. :o
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That “Find the Popes in the Pizza” contest he ran should make all the sedes look like saints. Where did you come from, by the way, Italy? 🙂 🙂
 
TNT said:
Who exactly is “PEOPLE”? And what bizarre agendas are you speaking of? “PEOPLE” doesn’t really mean anything. It’s just too general.
Was it the SSPX or the FSSP, or who?
Click to expand...
From what I understand, a variety of people introduced subjectivity into the rite. Some priests, some laymen on different kinds of committees, and some bishops by design or negligence, all had some role to play.
 
Manfred said:
“Age of Aquarius” from the musical “Hair” was made popular in 1969 by The Fifth Dimension, not The Association.
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Ur right. I stand corrected. You a pop fan? Ever read “the gods of Wasteland?”
 
BobP123 said:
Good article.

Those that believe strongly that it was not possible for Bugnini to be a Freemason should nevertheless question (1) why the lodge fathers praised him for his work so strongly (2) why the current NO sanctuary configuration so closely remembles those of the lodge meetings and (3) why acknowledged Freemasons are no longer excommunicated from the Church.

Not to change the subject, but I attended one of Fr. Lucas’ talks several years ago and he made this point: that perhaps God chose Bugnini and introduce the Novus Ordo as a way of protecting the beautiful ancient liturgy. Think about it, it may be true. If it had been only slightly altered, even every several years, one might not have noticed any real big change and therefore very few would have called specifically for the 1962 Missal. But being called NOVUS, that meant the old was archived, and therefore preserved as such.
Click to expand...
I believe that, that God perserved the ancient liturgy.
 
BobP123 said:
Ur right. I stand corrected. You a pop fan? Ever read “the gods of Wasteland?”
Click to expand...
Pop music fan, yes. I grew up in the late 50s and turbulent 60s.

I’m not familiar with “The Gods of Wasteland”.
 
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