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Debbie_Kono
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Just as a “speculating priest” isn’t legit…
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Xanthippe_Voorhees
Guest
Theologically, no, but if you have proof of doctrine that states ~insert name here~ is in hell, and not just the musing of humans we’d eventually name as saints, that’d be different.
But the Holy Mother Church, itself, has NEVER proclaimed or taught as infallible doctrine that ~insert person here~ is in Hell.
Some saints have speculated, but it is not the same as being confirmed. A priest is incredibly free to speculate on why --despite 2000 years of “good” information–the church has NEVER declared ~insert name here~ is in Hell. It’s all just guessing.
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pianistclare
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From Cardinal Dulles:
The search for numbers in the demography of hell is futile. God in His wisdom has seen fit not to disclose any statistics. Several sayings of Jesus in the Gospels give the impression that the majority are lost. Paul, without denying the likelihood that some sinners will die without sufficient repentance, teaches that the grace of Christ is more powerful than sin: “Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Romans 5:20). Passages such as these permit us to hope that very many, if not all, will be saved.
All told, it is good that God has left us without exact information. If we knew that virtually everybody would be damned, we would be tempted to despair. If we knew that all, or nearly all, are saved, we might become presumptuous. If we knew that some fixed percent, say fifty, would be saved, we would be caught in an unholy rivalry. We would rejoice in every sign that others were among the lost, since our own chances of election would thereby be increased. Such a competitive spirit would hardly be compatible with the gospel.
We are forbidden to seek our own salvation in a selfish and egotistical way. We are keepers of our brothers and sisters. The more we work for their salvation, the more of God’s favor we can expect for ourselves. Those of us who believe and make use of the means that God has provided for the forgiveness of sins and the reform of life have no reason to fear. We can be sure that Christ, who died on the Cross for us, will not fail to give us the grace we need. We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, and that if we persevere in that love, nothing whatever can separate us from Christ (cf. Romans 8:28-39). That is all the assurance we can have, and it should be enough.
The search for numbers in the demography of hell is futile. God in His wisdom has seen fit not to disclose any statistics. Several sayings of Jesus in the Gospels give the impression that the majority are lost. Paul, without denying the likelihood that some sinners will die without sufficient repentance, teaches that the grace of Christ is more powerful than sin: “Where sin increased, grace abounded all the more” (Romans 5:20). Passages such as these permit us to hope that very many, if not all, will be saved.
All told, it is good that God has left us without exact information. If we knew that virtually everybody would be damned, we would be tempted to despair. If we knew that all, or nearly all, are saved, we might become presumptuous. If we knew that some fixed percent, say fifty, would be saved, we would be caught in an unholy rivalry. We would rejoice in every sign that others were among the lost, since our own chances of election would thereby be increased. Such a competitive spirit would hardly be compatible with the gospel.
We are forbidden to seek our own salvation in a selfish and egotistical way. We are keepers of our brothers and sisters. The more we work for their salvation, the more of God’s favor we can expect for ourselves. Those of us who believe and make use of the means that God has provided for the forgiveness of sins and the reform of life have no reason to fear. We can be sure that Christ, who died on the Cross for us, will not fail to give us the grace we need. We know that in all things God works for the good of those who love Him, and that if we persevere in that love, nothing whatever can separate us from Christ (cf. Romans 8:28-39). That is all the assurance we can have, and it should be enough.
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jcrichton
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Debbie, what I am saying is that we do not know. Not even those who were swallowed by the earth… why? Because Jesus, in the Spirit, went to Preach to those imprisoned spirits… those who died during the Economy of the Old Covenant.
People get confused because of zealousness and they often take snapshots of Scriptures and bind judgment.
Only One is Judge!
Maran atha!
Angel
People get confused because of zealousness and they often take snapshots of Scriptures and bind judgment.
Only One is Judge!
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Debbie, there are many things that the Church Father’s taught or had an opinion on; but only Church Doctrine represents what the Church Teaches; could you contact that priest and ask him for the quote where the Church makes the determination of who is in hell today?
Maran atha!
Angel
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
It’s not about “legit;” it is about zealousness for the Faith; Saul was persecuting those of the Way; he was doing a fine job; till he got hit over the head, he was sure his zealousness for Yahweh God was cemented in the Truth (Christ). He found out different.
So if we look into what was being argued (I suppose you are speaking about the “limbo” thing) we will find some really bad understanding of the Faith being taught by well-meaning zealots.
Maran atha!
Angel
So if we look into what was being argued (I suppose you are speaking about the “limbo” thing) we will find some really bad understanding of the Faith being taught by well-meaning zealots.
Maran atha!
Angel
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Norseman82
Guest
People speculate and read too much into the reaction of the older brother that is NOT in the parable.
First, the Bible does NOT indicate that the father sent for his older son to stop working; in fact, the older son was surprised at the noise of the celebration and had to ask what was going on.
However, I wonder if the older brother would have gone in if he had been rewarded with the occasional “kid goat” with his friends. (I know it’s not part of the story, but it is certainly something for us to think about).
First, the Bible does NOT indicate that the father sent for his older son to stop working; in fact, the older son was surprised at the noise of the celebration and had to ask what was going on.
However, I wonder if the older brother would have gone in if he had been rewarded with the occasional “kid goat” with his friends. (I know it’s not part of the story, but it is certainly something for us to think about).
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Norseman82
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Debbie_Kono
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The priest is Fr. Philip Wolfe. He wrote the forward to the English translation of St. Robert Bellarmine’s “Antichrist” and he has tons of teachings on Sensus Fidelium on YouTube. I just entered The Church Easter 2015 from Protestantism and it is because of “stumbling” on Catholics such as the good Fr. Wolfe. I understand what is being said here that The Church has not dogmatically said any “named person” is in hell. I guess I liken this to private revelations such as Fatima, Akita and Our Lady of Revelation. We are free to believe these Church approved apparitions and I would think we are also free to believe that the names Father mentioned in his teachings that even some Church Doctors, popes, Scripture, Tradition and he believe are in hell. In this day and age where even a pope has said that “soul annihilation” is what happens to “lost souls” who don’t attain the beatific vision…it’s an important teaching. A reminder that God is not only merciful, but just.
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1neophyte
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jcrichton
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Welcome Home!
As Catholics we can believe many things; only Church Doctrine is Dogma. Sadly, even the Fathers of the Church formulated opinions as that “annihilation” of the soul. Yet, we will not find that in Scriptures–the closest to this is Jesus’ ‘do not be afraid of those who can only take your life; be afraid of the One who can destroy both your life and soul/spirit.’
Yet, this is not explicitly saying that there’s any annihilation goin on.
Conversely, I have heard the spin that that passage is not in reference to God but to Satan (you know, the “feel good theology” that wants us to believe that no one goes to hell or that a good God wouldn’t “xyz”).
Maran atha!
Angel
As Catholics we can believe many things; only Church Doctrine is Dogma. Sadly, even the Fathers of the Church formulated opinions as that “annihilation” of the soul. Yet, we will not find that in Scriptures–the closest to this is Jesus’ ‘do not be afraid of those who can only take your life; be afraid of the One who can destroy both your life and soul/spirit.’
Yet, this is not explicitly saying that there’s any annihilation goin on.
Conversely, I have heard the spin that that passage is not in reference to God but to Satan (you know, the “feel good theology” that wants us to believe that no one goes to hell or that a good God wouldn’t “xyz”).
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
That was the first cause for not joining the festivities–‘I never got…’
He did not listen to what the Father said: ‘everything I have is yours.’
Eventually, though, since he was an obedient son, he would make his way into the party–if not when hunger hit it will be stomach vs. pride.
Maran atha!
Angel
He did not listen to what the Father said: ‘everything I have is yours.’
Eventually, though, since he was an obedient son, he would make his way into the party–if not when hunger hit it will be stomach vs. pride.
Maran atha!
Angel
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MargaretofCortona
Guest
I’m not too fond of that parable of the parable of the vineyard. To the human it seems unfair that people choose to practice virtues their whole life and when some jerk decides to repent on his last dying breath God will accept him too in Paradise.
I may just be a bitter, resentful and judgmental person.
Humans want justice more than mercy.
They want things to be fair according to their own understanding.
It is truly difficult to conquer the flesh
I may just be a bitter, resentful and judgmental person.
Humans want justice more than mercy.
They want things to be fair according to their own understanding.
It is truly difficult to conquer the flesh
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christofirst
Guest
I can certainly understand your (and my mom’s) way of seeing these parables. This theme of justice wouldn’t have been the subject of Our Lord’s parables, I suppose, if it wasn’t challenging for us and contrary to our own sense of fairness (that line from Scripture, God’s ways are not our ways, comes to mind). But here’s how I see it: I hope everyone repents, sooner or later - hopefully sooner, but later is okay too! The times that I have not sinned, and the temptations that I have not had to face, I consider those times a grace from God, more His doing than mine, and I am grateful for that. I cannot know what anyone else has gone through that led them to sin. I do have sins that I constantly struggle with, however, so it is quite possible that I will be the worker who shows up late to the vineyard, and in that sense, I am the prodigal son. I want mercy more than justice! I fear justice. There is a line from the First Eucharistic Prayer, 1970 Missal, that sticks with me, and it continues to come to my mind to this day, “Do not consider what we truly deserve, but grant us your forgiveness.”
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Debbie_Kono
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Really? Isn’t it Catholic Doctrine that all souls are eternal? Who are these “Church Fathers”? Were they corrected? Excommunicated?
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Debbie_Kono
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I used to struggle with the Prodigal Son parable too…until life got messy. I was the Prodigal Son for a long time and then was introduced to Jesus. I always believed in God, but just didn’t know much about Him. But now the person God used to reveal Himself to me is living a life contrary to the gospel. I pray for him every day and at every Mass. We have to keep in mind that God loves EVERY soul and wants them saved…even jerks.
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jcrichton
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Hi, Margaret!
Here’s the thing… God’s Mercy and Love… well they’re free… Judgment on the other hand it’s Earned.
The problem we have is that we view God’s Love, Mercy, Wrath, Judgment with the human condition.
We already Know that God’s Way is not our ways–He Stated it so.
Where we go totally coco is when we believe that we can do as we please all of our lives and (the hollowood’s spirituality) when we are sure that we can’t profit or get any benefit or death is just a few steps away we can just throw our hands up and call for a Priest (for non-Catholics and non-Believers–just phone God directly) and claim repentance.
The problem with that is that God cannot be fooled. He does not go by outward appearances; the Holy Spirits Searches the depths of our mind, body, and soul (spirit):
Maran atha!
Angel
Here’s the thing… God’s Mercy and Love… well they’re free… Judgment on the other hand it’s Earned.
The problem we have is that we view God’s Love, Mercy, Wrath, Judgment with the human condition.
We already Know that God’s Way is not our ways–He Stated it so.
Where we go totally coco is when we believe that we can do as we please all of our lives and (the hollowood’s spirituality) when we are sure that we can’t profit or get any benefit or death is just a few steps away we can just throw our hands up and call for a Priest (for non-Catholics and non-Believers–just phone God directly) and claim repentance.
The problem with that is that God cannot be fooled. He does not go by outward appearances; the Holy Spirits Searches the depths of our mind, body, and soul (spirit):
So, yeah, we can call on God even in the final stages of life; but no, God is not fooled into accepting a false and pretentious ‘mea culpa’ or “Lord, Lord!”
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Christ!
While it is a wonderful prayer and your desire that all repent even if late is also wonderful… the problem lies not in what the prayer (Church) intends but in what man machinates. If anyone thinks that they can just pull a card out of their pocket and step right to the head of the line… well, there’s that old ‘you have another thing coming!’
The prayer is eliciting God’s Mercy; it is not condoning a sinful life nor granting man blanket absolution for his determination to sin and reject God.
Do you truly believe that if we practice unrighteousness and rejection of God all of our lives, one day we will have had enough of it and seek that Justice that you fear?
There’s no telling when a sinner will open his/her mind/heart/spirit to God; but the old adage, ‘practice makes perfect’ also works nicely with ‘a calloused heart/mind/spirit seldom accepts Divine Revelation.’
Postponing Salvation may be the path that Jesus Warned about:
Striving for the “one day, I’ll make peace with God…” well, that’s a hell of a long, long, long, shot.
Maran atha!
Angel
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jcrichton
Guest
Hi, Debbie!
I don’t know–I don’t even know where the person who quoted got it from nor if the quote has been made in isolation of the actual teaching or if it was a quote by a Catholic Father/Monk who turned from the Faith or who was corrected and recanted any error or if it was accepted as a personal opinion and dismissed as not authoritative Church Teaching.
We can research/study this if you like.
My point is that even the most zealots tread in error when they hold firmly to their personal understanding; we have two directly opposite characters in the history of the Church: St. Francis of Assisi and Martin Luther.
The first saw error in the Church and worked within the Church to Edify the Body of Christ; eventually he was canonized and held as a Saint by the Body of Christ which he sought to mend and nourish.
The latter, while his intentions may have started from the same perspective as the first, soon allowed his endeavor to turn from correction of ills to self-licensing and autonomy.
We have the fruits of both: St. Francis continues to Edify and Glorify the Body of Christ, through his followers; Luther’s schism continues to fracture the Body of Christ into more and more splinters, through his followers.
Maran atha!
Angel
I don’t know–I don’t even know where the person who quoted got it from nor if the quote has been made in isolation of the actual teaching or if it was a quote by a Catholic Father/Monk who turned from the Faith or who was corrected and recanted any error or if it was accepted as a personal opinion and dismissed as not authoritative Church Teaching.
We can research/study this if you like.
My point is that even the most zealots tread in error when they hold firmly to their personal understanding; we have two directly opposite characters in the history of the Church: St. Francis of Assisi and Martin Luther.
The first saw error in the Church and worked within the Church to Edify the Body of Christ; eventually he was canonized and held as a Saint by the Body of Christ which he sought to mend and nourish.
The latter, while his intentions may have started from the same perspective as the first, soon allowed his endeavor to turn from correction of ills to self-licensing and autonomy.
We have the fruits of both: St. Francis continues to Edify and Glorify the Body of Christ, through his followers; Luther’s schism continues to fracture the Body of Christ into more and more splinters, through his followers.
Maran atha!
Angel
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Annie
Guest
I used to not get that parable either, until Impeanred that a day’s wages covered a family’s day’s expenses. Then it seemed like what the father in the Prodigal Son was saying was: you have been here with me, safe and secure and with everything you wanted, for all this time. Do you think your brother was really happy out there?
The workers in the vinyard who were hired late in the day spent all that time worrying that they would not be able to feed their families at the end of the day. Was that better than working all day, happily knowing their families would eat that night?
The workers in the vinyard who were hired late in the day spent all that time worrying that they would not be able to feed their families at the end of the day. Was that better than working all day, happily knowing their families would eat that night?
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