How to answer accusations against the pope?

[CrimsonCatholic]

Many times as catholics we will here from People who will ask, what about the pope knowing about the sexual abuse being committed in the church and did nothing about this.

Usually they will say it was before he was elected as pope. What information out there shows he was not involved or of he was, what does that change?

Thanks.

 

[livingwordunity]

Many times as catholics we will here from People who will ask, what about the pope knowing about the sexual abuse being committed in the church and did nothing about this.

Usually they will say it was before he was elected as pope. What information out there shows he was not involved or of he was, what does that change?

Thanks.

The one who makes the claim should be the one to prove it. And there is no proof that the Pope knew about any particular case of sex abuse and covered it up either before or after he became the Pope. All someone has to tell the Pope is “everything is going fine”. How can he know more than that? The Pope has to be responsible for over 1 billion Catholics who are spread all over the world. How can he know what happens to every one of them at any given time? You should tell them that the Pope isn’t omniscient or omnipresent, and we don’t claim that he is.

 

[Farsight001]

The one who makes the claim should be the one to prove it. And there is no proof that the Pope knew about any particular case of sex abuse and covered it up either before or after he became the Pope. All someone has to tell the Pope is “everything is going fine”. How can he know more than that? The Pope has to be responsible for over 1 billion Catholics who are spread all over the world. How can he know what happens to every one of them at any given time? You should tell them that the Pope isn’t omniscient or omnipresent, and we don’t claim that he is.

This. They made a claim. It’s their obligation to support it with evidence. Your proper response is to ask for evidence and when they fail to provide any, simply tell them that you will remain skeptical until you see some.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I agree fully with the previous two posters. One strategy you could use is to say, “I will show my evidence that the Pope wasn’t involved as soon as you show me evidence that Jimmy Carter was involved.” Or something like that.

There are some articles about Pope Benedict and the abuse crisis, however, if you are looking for this sort of thing for yourself. I don’t know your friends and how honest they are about the situation, but there are people who are willfully blind, seduced by the prospect that their anti-religious bigotry has some merit, and that the Pope could be a monster. Such people may be beyond reason.

Vatican’s lawyer says abuse suit was withdrawn to avoid loss (Catholic News Agency, Feb. 13, 2012)
Cardinal Ratzinger An Evil Monster? Point-by-point analysis by Catholic apologist Jimmy Akin (National Catholic Register March 30, 2010).
A Response to the New York Times, by Fr. Raymond J. de Souza (National Review’s “The Corner” March 27, 2010).
Avvenire: New York Times Contradicts Itself A reconstruction of events by Riccardo Cascioli for Avvenire, the newspaper of the Italian episcopal conference. March 26, 2010.
The Pope and the Murphy case: what the New York Times story didn’t tell you, by Phil Lawler (Catholic Culture. March 25, 2010).
Vatican Statement on the “Murphy Case” Statement given to the New York Times on Wednesday by Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, the director of the Vatican press office. Zenit News Service. March 25, 2010.

 

[april32010]

the thing thats funny to me,it seem some people think you have his email address so you can let him know their concerns.

 

[april32010]

i have this book,it is the best work i’ve seen regarding this subject. catalog.osv.com/Catalog.aspx?SimpleDisplay=true&ProductCode=T1109

 

[Crescentinus]

Defeat the accusation using objective reason.

 

[PJD1987]

St. Francis de Sales, in his unbelievably remarkable apologetics book, The Catholic Controversy explains this (and every other issue one might have with the Catholic faith) extremely thoroughly.

archive.org/stream/catholiccontrove00sain#page/244/mode/2up/search/Peter+rock

This link will take you to the page where this charge is specifically and thoroughly countered, but I highly encourage you to read the entire book. It is simply amazing, St. Francis de Sales converted tens of thousands by this one work that he posted on peoples doors, because he was banned from preaching. Truly amazing feat.

God bless.

-Paul

 

[Hokomai]

Because the Church does not allow freedom of information disclosure (in keeping with most private organizations but unlike democratic nations) it is impossible to be sure who knew what when, and what may still be known, but kept secret. There is substantial reason for suspicion of the entire Church, given the demonstrated actions at many levels in different parts of the world. The answer would be to set up an independent investigatory tribunal, with power to compell evidence on pain of excommunication, hold its hearings in public, and publish them. Elements of the South African peace and reconciliation process would also be useful. Until this happens the best a Catholic can say is that they do not have the evidence. But the reason they do not have the evidence is that there has not been complete and effective disclosure bby the Church.

 

[PJD1987]

Because the Church does not allow freedom of information disclosure (in keeping with most private organizations but unlike democratic nations) it is impossible to be sure who knew what when, and what may still be known, but kept secret. There is substantial reason for suspicion of the entire Church, given the demonstrated actions at many levels in different parts of the world. The answer would be to set up an independent investigatory tribunal, with power to compell evidence on pain of excommunication, hold its hearings in public, and publish them. Elements of the South African peace and reconciliation process would also be useful. Until this happens the best a Catholic can say is that they do not have the evidence. But the reason they do not have the evidence is that there has not been complete and effective disclosure bby the Church.

Well the Vatican is not a democratic nation, so that’s that.

Given that the Church has some of the strictest sexual abuse accusation procedures in the world, and they’ve had a target on their back (and rightfully so) for many years now, and pertinent documents of then-Cardinal Ratzinger have been released, and every case has/is being thoroughly investigated, I feel that if there were anything else to find, it would be found.

I believe the Church has gone/is going through it’s own “South African peace and reconciliation” if you will, but it will not take the same form. The Church has a different culture, different tradition, different law, but to suggest that the Church is hiding something is wild conjecture and the burden of proof is upon the accuser. Anyone can say anything, and indeed the SNAP organization has been found to be not so legitimate at times in the cases they bring forth, so…to encourage a witch hunt I don’t believe is the way to go.

God bless.

-Paul

 

[Hokomai]

Well the Vatican is not a democratic nation, so that’s that.

Given that the Church has some of the strictest sexual abuse accusation procedures in the world, and they’ve had a target on their back (and rightfully so) for many years now, and pertinent documents of then-Cardinal Ratzinger have been released, and every case has/is being thoroughly investigated, I feel that if there were anything else to find, it would be found.

I believe the Church has gone/is going through it’s own “South African peace and reconciliation” if you will, but it will not take the same form. The Church has a different culture, different tradition, different law, but to suggest that the Church is hiding something is wild conjecture and the burden of proof is upon the accuser. Anyone can say anything, and indeed the SNAP organization has been found to be not so legitimate at times in the cases they bring forth, so…to encourage a witch hunt I don’t believe is the way to go.

God bless.

-Paul

Just because it is not democratic, and it certainly is not, does not mean that the Church cannot do the most sensible thing in managing a scandal. Exposé it all. Let it pass.

 

[PJD1987]

Just because it is not democratic, and it certainly is not, does not mean that the Church cannot do the most sensible thing in managing a scandal. Exposé it all. Let it pass.

I think you give too little credit to what the Church has done in response to the crimes committed by its clergy. The Vatican is a sovereign and independent nation, it’s not about to let every country with a claim against it to rummage through its files. That would be a ludicrous manhunt. Besides, let’s be honest, no matter what the Church did, it will never be enough to satisfy the skeptics and those that hate the Church. There will always be a bone to pick with the Church from those who disagree with it on one thing or another.

God bless.

-Paul

 

[Hokomai]

I think you give too little credit to what the Church has done in response to the crimes committed by its clergy. **The Vatican is a sovereign and independent nation, it’s not about to let every country with a claim against it to rummage through its files. ** That would be a ludicrous manhunt. Besides, let’s be honest, no matter what the Church did, it will never be enough to satisfy the skeptics and those that hate the Church. There will always be a bone to pick with the Church from those who disagree with it on one thing or another.

God bless.

-Paul

Actually, this is what sovereign and independent democracies do. It is better that the secrecy practiced by theocracies.

 

[MarcoPolo]

There is substantial reason for suspicion of the entire Church, given the demonstrated actions at many levels in different parts of the world.

So if I understand you correctly, there is substantial reason for me to suspect you, as a non-believer, to be guilty of various heinous crimes, given that throughout history, many non-believers in different parts of the world have done such actions.

 

[PJD1987]

Actually, this is what sovereign and independent democracies do. It is better that the secrecy practiced by theocracies.

Oh yes, I remember when America had representatives of all its enemies come in and take a look at the Department of Defense files…please, give me a break. Besides, as a sovereign and independent nation it has the right to conduct its affairs in the ways it sees fit. If it does meet with your standard, well, that’s just too bad, sir. Luckily, it doesnt have to, and no matter what it did, it wouldn’t meet your standard anyway.

God bless.

-Paul

 

[lerapt78]

Because the Church does not allow freedom of information disclosure (in keeping with most private organizations but unlike democratic nations) it is impossible to be sure who knew what when, and what may still be known, but kept secret. There is substantial reason for suspicion of the entire Church, given the demonstrated actions at many levels in different parts of the world. The answer would be to set up an independent investigatory tribunal, with power to compell evidence on pain of excommunication, hold its hearings in public, and publish them. Elements of the South African peace and reconciliation process would also be useful. Until this happens the best a Catholic can say is that they do not have the evidence. But the reason they do not have the evidence is that there has not been complete and effective disclosure bby the Church.

I think you are correct in that it would be difficult for anyone who wishes to show proof of compliancy to get any evidence. Even everyday Catholics cannot really know for sure if cover-ups were conducted at the highest levels. We simply trust that if a lot of these abuse cases were ever brought to the highest tribunal, they would have been dealt with accordingly, and that it is far more likely that cover-ups were done at the lower levels and they only reached the ears of the Vatican when they became too exposed. However . . . .

Actually, this is what sovereign and independent democracies do. It is better that the secrecy practiced by theocracies.

This is an extremely naive statement. Do you honestly believe that any and all democratic governments have complete transparency?

 

[Hokomai]

So if I understand you correctly, there is substantial reason for me to suspect you, as a non-believer, to be guilty of various heinous crimes, given that throughout history, many non-believers in different parts of the world have done such actions.

No, I am not an institution, or part of one. Where there is an ingrained practice, such as avoidance of scandal, that leads to wrong-doing, you may reasonably decide that there is a risk of it happening again.

With an individual, if I did something wrong once (steal from my employer, for example), it is perfectly reasonable to think there is a risk I did so more than once.

 

[Hokomai]

This is an extremely naive statement. Do you honestly believe that any and all democratic governments have complete transparency?

Of course not. But they do to a very great extent on issues such as the abuse of children in their institutions. So should the Catholic Church.

 

[sedonaman]

I can’t help thinking there is a double standard lurking in the OP question.

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“Anyone who is aware of the high degree of selectivity of Leftist indignation, and of how they remain utterly impassive in the face of any injustice that doesn’t serve to further their agenda, keeps their complaints in perspective.”

 

[sedonaman]

Defeat the accusation using objective reason.

Objective reason that we all learned in public schools and became experts, against people whose minds are already made up. Talk about beating a dead horse.