How to answer fundamentalist who goes by Bible alone/no councils/creeds

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A co-worker claims to have the original, 1st Century Christianity, Using ONLY scripture, no creeds, no councils, no additions. It’s all there in the New Testament.

He argues that the true Christians knew which books were inspired in the 1st century and that the later council simply re=-affirmed what true Chritians knew but then created a false religion.

Can’t seem to get anywhere with him on this. Any ideas?
 
A co-worker claims to have the original, 1st Century Christianity, Using ONLY scripture, no creeds, no councils, no additions. It’s all there in the New Testament.

He argues that the true Christians knew which books were inspired in the 1st century and that the later council simply re=-affirmed what true Chritians knew but then created a false religion.

Can’t seem to get anywhere with him on this. Any ideas?
Your friend is wrong. The 1st century used the CHURCH Jesus founded,ask your co-worker to tell you when did Jesus left the belief: Scripture-Only? Second, his argument the first Christians knew which books were inspired in the 1st century is also not accurate. Apparently he does not know there existed many writings and different communities used different text,so his argument leaves to many questions being begged to be asked.

Third,if he needs no creeds,councils,etc then ask him why would the Church wait nearly 400 years to canonize the Bible? Fourth, if he needs no councils,where does the Bible teach which books should belong in the Bible? What certitude does he have his Bible has the correct books? Fifth,ask him to show you were the Bible explicitly explains the three distinct persons of the Trinity: God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?

I can go on and on and your friend has no leg to stand on.
 
My thoughts only. There is not enough evidence from the 1st century to really reflect what they believed aboutf a “canon” they did or did not have. The evidence is really scant. In around the year 367 AD, a bishop is the first person I believe to list all 27 books of the NT. But once again, it is impossible to prove he was the very first. He is the very first we know about (I think). So I do not see how you can prove or disprove any of this.
 
My thoughts only. There is not enough evidence from the 1st century to really reflect what they believed aboutf a “canon” they did or did not have. The evidence is really scant. In around the year 367 AD, a bishop is the first person I believe to list all 27 books of the NT. But once again, it is impossible to prove he was the very first. He is the very first we know about (I think). So I do not see how you can prove or disprove any of this.
Well actually history leans more of the side of proving the 1st century did not have a “fixed” canon as many fundamentalist present as an argument. Jesus founded His Church,He did not write our current Bible we all know. The Bible is very clear Jesus founded His Church…not the Bible. Last, Christianity is a religion of the person: Jesus Christ,not a book religion like Islam,Judaism,etc.
 
Christ and Moses said numerous times in scripture, that infallibility is within written words not tradition. They both rebuked those who prescribed final authority to tradition.

Nevertheless as Catholics ride both horses tradition and the bible.
 
Fifth,ask him to show you were the Bible explicitly explains the three distinct persons of the Trinity: God the Father,God the Son and God the Holy Spirit?
This. The doctrine of the Trinity can be your common ground in this debate. This a doctrine that evangelicals hold strongly to and it did not come from the bible.
 
A co-worker claims to have the original, 1st Century Christianity, Using ONLY scripture, no creeds, no councils, no additions. It’s all there in the New Testament.

He argues that the true Christians knew which books were inspired in the 1st century and that the later council simply re=-affirmed what true Chritians knew but then created a false religion.

Can’t seem to get anywhere with him on this. Any ideas?
Whenever two (or more) groups in history come into conflict, there is some type of historical record.

What point in history can one point to as the moment where this false religion came about? And where was the outcry from the “true Christians” when this “false religion” was created? If that’s the way things happened, there should be some sort of historical clues. Wishful thinking doesn’t count.
 
A co-worker claims to have the original, 1st Century Christianity, Using ONLY scripture, no creeds, no councils, no additions. It’s all there in the New Testament.

He argues that the true Christians knew which books were inspired in the 1st century and that the later council simply re=-affirmed what true Chritians knew but then created a false religion.

Can’t seem to get anywhere with him on this. Any ideas?
Ask your friend where, specifically, in the Bible it states that Scripture alone is sufficient.

I know a young man caught up in a similar cult. He is studying ancient languages so that they can dissect Scripture to come to know 1st century life better. Here’s the problem - The Holy Bible came from The Catholic Church, but the canon was not decided upon for hundreds of years (as someone posted above) after using Sacred Tradition and the Councils, acting on Divine Revelation, declared it such. The man I know is using a Protestant Bible and trying to go backwards. . . . . it just all gets messy.
 
ask them then how do they know that their church service is “biblical” since the Bible does not describe one or how it should be? Ask them if they practice Christmas on Dec 25th or even Easter? Both of those are not in the Bible. Ask them how do they know what books should be in the cannon of scripture since the Bible does not list them. Ask them what Paul meant when he said “hold fast to the tradition” and that is is the Bible. Ask them what John meant at the end of his Gospel when he said not everything is written down that Jesus said and did. That is in the Bible. Ask him why his church does communion only once a month since that practice is not described in the Bible. You see, there are many things that Baptist practice and believe and do that are not in the Bible and yet they are Bible-only Christians!
Ask him if he still believes in miracles and divine healing because those things are in the Bible but many Baptist don’t believe they are for today. They can’t justify that position from the Bible. The best defense is a good offense.
 
“God did not come to earth as a book that dropped out of the sky. The Word came to earth incarnate as a man.”

Where is That in Scripture? uses a short sentence to show how it can be interpreted in different ways, depending where you put the emphasis.

“It is clear, therefore, that sacred tradition, sacred Scripture, and the teaching authority of the Church, in accord with God’s wise design, are so linked and joined together that one cannot stand without the others, and that all together and each in its own way under the influence of the Holy Spirit contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.” [Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation]
 
I don’t think that there is much you can do. He has been led astray and is following some type of fundamentalist Christianity. The only thing I can suggest is that he study the Early Church Fathers and the formulation of Christian doctrine. It all started from Christ , through the Apostles and then on from there. Good luck!
 
A co-worker claims to have the original, 1st Century Christianity, Using ONLY scripture, no creeds, no councils, no additions. It’s all there in the New Testament.

He argues that the true Christians knew which books were inspired in the 1st century and that the later council simply re=-affirmed what true Chritians knew but then created a false religion.

Can’t seem to get anywhere with him on this. Any ideas?
Debating religion in the office? I’d rather not, personally 🙂

How would he know when the early Christian leaders were being inspired by God and when they turned to falsehood? He couldn’t. If he can’t be sure of that, then the New Testament could easily be a false scripture.

I asked this of a Jehovah’s Witness, who maintain that the early Church went into apostasy: “Doesn’t that mean that scripture is in apostasy?” The reply was (probably expect something like this), “Sometimes God uses ‘evil’ people to do his work,”; but if this is true, you must concede some sort of doubt in this assertion, otherwise you are having your cake and eating it as well.
 
Do not let this person put you on the defensive. Ask them to show you where in their bible it specifically states ONLY scripture. They may show or quote 2Timothy 3:16, and 2Peter 1:20. (I.E. All scripture is God breathed, and not for private interpretation, and useful for instruction.) However, the passage reads ALL scripture, not ONLY scripture. One response is 2Thessalonians 2:15: Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. (speech or written)
This is one of the biggies: major topics, along with sola fide, faith alone, Jesus is not God, Mary is nobody special and the harlot of Babylon, etc. Yeah, there are many stumbling blocks to overcome. I know, as I was once Fundamentalist. Study up, because they are, usually, very versed in their faith and positions.
One of the things I learned after my conversion, is that the Catholic Church has answers/responses to all of these things. Others have probably said this, but you could do a “search” on sola scriptura, scripture alone. (Patrick Madrid and Jimmy Akin just to name a couple of resources.) Hope this helps 🙂
 
but Councils are biblically based. The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 proves that!
 
I’d ask if “John” is one of the inspired Books. Most likely s/he will say yes. Then I’d ask what the last line of John means if the only source we should consider are the Books s/he considers inspired.

Then I would simply pray for them and agree to disagree. If they had ears they’d hear, but many folks just don’t have ears…

God bless
 
You can’t do very much. When reason and common sense has left the field, there is nothing left to argue with that has a platform: scripture battles will fail because he interprets them differently.
 
=Tobias2;8937437]A co-worker claims to have the original, 1st Century Christianity, Using ONLY scripture, no creeds, no councils, no additions. It’s all there in the New Testament.
He argues that the true Christians knew which books were inspired in the 1st century and that the later council simply re=-affirmed what true Chritians knew but then created a false religion.
Can’t seem to get anywhere with him on this. Any ideas?
Look up: Matt. 28;16-20
Matt. 16-15-19
John 14:16-17
John 17:15-19
and John 20:19-23


It is clearly expressed by Christ Himself that He desired to establish just One set of Faith beliefs, that he entrust them to Peter and through Peter to His CC. And that todays CC is the ONLY Faith founded by Christ new Covenant, and the ONLY set of beliefs warranited by Jesus Himself: Guided, guarded and protected by Christ and the Ho;ly Spirit to be TRUE and the FULLNESS of the Thruth.

Rom.10: 17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ”

**Eph.3: 9 to 12 **“And to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church [SINGULAR: meaning THE CATHOLIC Church] the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose which he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confidence of access through our faith in him

**Matt.13:9-12 **“He who has ears, let him hear." Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.” For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. “

2nd. Peter 3: 14-17 “Therefore, beloved, since you wait for these, be zealous to be found by him without spot or blemish, and at peace. And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability

John 5: 37 “And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen; and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent. You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me; yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life [Speaking of accepting the entire WORD of GOD]. I do not receive glory from men .[Meaning disobedience is rampant!] But I know that you have not the love of God within you. I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me” [Obey Me!]

**Eph. 4: 1-7 **“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord, beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all lowliness and meekness, with patience, forbearing one another in love, eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift.

**John.10: 16 **“And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd”

**Eph. 2:19-20 **“So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

God Bless,
Pat
 
A co-worker claims to have the original, 1st Century Christianity, Using ONLY scripture, no creeds, no councils, no additions. It’s all there in the New Testament.

He argues that the true Christians knew which books were inspired in the 1st century and that the later council simply re=-affirmed what true Chritians knew but then created a false religion.

Can’t seem to get anywhere with him on this. Any ideas?
Oh, I have a number of ideas…

The Enoch & Jude Challenge
Ask your co-worker whether or not the Book of Enoch should be considered Sacred Scripture. Although the text version is dated to approximately the 2nd Century B.C., many ancient Jews and Christians believed it to be authentic inspired prophetic teachings, stemming from a much older oral tradition.

Within this text we read…

“And behold! He cometh with ten thousands of His holy ones
To execute judgment upon all,
And to destroy all the ungodly:
And to convict all flesh
Of all the works of their ungodliness which they have ungodly committed,
And of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” (Enoch 1:9)

(source)

We see this actually quoted in the NT’s Epistle of Jude:

“It was of these also that Enoch in the seventh generation from Adam prophesied, saying,
‘Behold, the Lord came with myriads of his holy ones,
to execute judgment on all,
to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness
which they have committed in such an ungodly way,
and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him’.”
(Jude 1:14-15)

Although Jude does not record what he personally thinks about the Book of Enoch, the fact that he quoted it is evidence that at least some Ancient Christians accepted it as divinely inspired, and still others may have come to believe it to be so for the simple fact that Jude included it in his epistle.

Of course, Catholics do not accept the Book of Enoch as Sacred Scripture because later Church councils discerned that it should not be included in the Canon of Scripture. But seeing as your co-worker does not accept the rulings of Church councils, show him where the Book of Enoch is quoted in Jude and then ask him whether or not he should accept Enoch as being divinely inspired.

If he says, “No” then ask him why not. Keep in mind that he has to answer this without appealing to a ruling of a Church council (so he can’t simply say, “Because it’s not in the Canon of Scripture.”)

Moreover, if he says that Enoch should not be in the Bible because 1st Century Christians knew that it wasn’t supposed to be included, ask him why Jude elected to quote something (as a prophetic authority) that everyone knew was not divinely inspired.

If he says, that Enoch is divinely inspired then ask him why it was left out of the Bible. Such a situation contradicts his position that 1st Century Christians knew what was supposed to be in the Bible and that later councils only reaffirmed this knowledge.

The Septuagint / Deutercanon Challenge
Does your co-worker accept the books of the Deuteroncanon? These are the books found in Catholic editions of the Old Testament that Protestants do not use. They were included in the Septuagint, which was the version of the OT primarily used by 1st Century (and later) Christians. So ask your co-worker if he believes such books as Wisdom, 1&2 Maccabees, Tobit, etc. are divinely inspired.

If he says, “No” then point out that the 1st Century Christians believed that they were. Moreover, you can point out that later Church councils affirmed that the books of the Deuterocanon belonged in the Canon of Scripture, so if he says they aren’t supposed to be in the Bible then he has contradicted himself. After all, he has stated that the councils simply reaffirmed what 1st Century Christians believed regarding what books belonged in the Bible, so based on that he ought to accept the Deuterocanon.

The History of Debates Over the Canon
Your co-worker seems to have little or no knowledge of the long-running debates over the first few centuries of the Church regarding what was, and what was not, Sacred Scripture. Many theologians, for example, did not think Revelation ought to added to the Canon of Scripture. I am away from my personal library at the moment, so I can’t provide quotes from credible Scripture scholars regarding this, but this information is “out there.” The business of the Church councils was not to simply reaffirm a general consensus regarding the Canon, but to settle the various debates as to what was and was not Sacred Scripture.

The Challenge Concerning the Authenticity of Copies of the Bible
We do not have the original copy of any book of the Bible, but only copies of copies of copies and so forth. For example, if my memory is correct, the earliest surviving example of a NT text dates from the 4th Century, so that’s as close as we can get to what the 1st Century Christians had. In light of this, ask your co-worker why he accepts the version of Scripture in his Bible as being an authentic representation of the original books. After all, it is the Church which tells us that such modern day Bibles are valid representations. But if your co-worker says that Church councils do not have the God-given ability to determine what is and is not Sacred Scripture, then why believe the Church has the ability to tell us that the ancient copies of biblical texts are authentic representatives of the original texts?
 
I’d ask if “John” is one of the inspired Books. Most likely s/he will say yes. Then I’d ask what the last line of John means if the only source we should consider are the Books s/he considers inspired.

Then I would simply pray for them and agree to disagree. If they had ears they’d hear, but many folks just don’t have ears…

God bless
What a great verse!
(John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.)
Mind boggling, to think of it.
 
A co-worker claims to have the original, 1st Century Christianity, Using ONLY scripture, no creeds, no councils, no additions. It’s all there in the New Testament.

He argues that the true Christians knew which books were inspired in the 1st century and that the later council simply re=-affirmed what true Chritians knew but then created a false religion.

Can’t seem to get anywhere with him on this. Any ideas?
Another point here, is of authority. Who told this person they have the original 1st Century Christianity, and how can said person be assured they were told the truth? It may be an issue of authority first, in sola scriptura. Who says it’s scripture alone? By what authority do they say it? Is their private interpretation going on here? (It’s really a big issue, with one idea building on another.)
 
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