How to answer Protestants' "saving faith"?

[MarcoPolo]

David will join his son when he dies and goes to be with the Lord (in Heaven).

I’m curious if you’re also OSAS.

 

[Cachonga]

VociMike:

If you think babies who lack faith can be saved, why did you even bring up the issue about babies? Works are not the key to salvation, nor is faith the key. God’s grace is the key, and our response to it.

I brought it up to make a point. The scriptures tell us that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). How was my baptism in the Catholic Church pleasing to God when I had no faith? How can anyone be saved by baptism if they have no faith? Is a person saved by faith in Jesus Christ, or by baptism? I think the scriptures are clear that faith comes first, then baptism (which is an act of faith, not a duty or obligation).

VociMike:

What did I write that would cause you to ask this question?

If unbaptized babies don’t go to Heaven, where do they go? What is your scriptural basis for that belief?

MarcoPolo:

I’m curious if you’re also OSAS.

I wonder that sometimes, too! I had a friend in College that was, but he sure didn’t live like he was saved. Paul addressed this problem as well (“What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” Romans 6:15 DR). If he was an example of OSAS, I thank God I am not! On the other hand, I see plenty of things in Scripture to convince me that God WILL preserve those whom He has called, and I believe I am one of those. Doesn’t mean I’m perfect (certainly not infallible), but my walk with the Lord has greatly improved since He brought me out of the Catholic Church.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I wonder that sometimes, too!

I was only curious if you believed that babies who died went to heaven and OSAS at the same time. Thanks for you answer. It sounds like you are not sure on that issue though.

 

[Philthy]

2 Sam 12:23 says, "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. " (emphasis mine). I believe God is merciful and has a plan and purpose for everything. As I understand 2 Sam 12:23, David will join his son when he dies and goes to be with the Lord (in Heaven).

So your answer is NO? You dont believe unbaptized babies go to Hell. How then, do you reconcile their going to Heaven (ie saved) if they dont have faith? Why would baptism of an infant require faith of the infant but salvation of the infant who happens to die does not require faith? You’re being selective and inconsistent IMHO.

Do you think every unbaptized baby goes to hell?

Not at all.

What, in Scripture, makes you think unbaptized babies go to hell?

Didnt you just say that all that is “not of faith is sin” and that the “wages of sin is death”? Have not “all sinned and fall short of the glory of God?” What other conclusion - from your presented interpretation of these verses - could one have other than babies go to Hell?

Are you saying that baptism isn’t a work?

It is not a work - it is an act of faith.

If it’s a work, how can a baby, with no faith, do this work in a way that’s pleasing to God?

It is the faith of the parents and the work of Christ on the Cross which pleases God and which the baby benefits from. Christ healed the children of people with faith, why would this be any different? "

 

[ncgolf]

I brought it up to make a point. The scriptures tell us that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).

What specifically do you mean by faith, mere belief? What is the common denominator in Hebrews 11 in describing the faith of the ancients?

How was my baptism in the Catholic Church pleasing to God when I had no faith? How can anyone be saved by baptism if they have no faith? Is a person saved by faith in Jesus Christ, or by baptism? I think the scriptures are clear that faith comes first, then baptism (which is an act of faith, not a duty or obligation).

Infant Baptism resides in the faith of the parents and God-parents. The faith is proclaimed through the parents … this is why questions are asked and answered.

If unbaptized babies don’t go to Heaven, where do they go? What is your scriptural basis for that belief?

I don’t think anyone knows exactly what happens but we do know that grace can be given by God … to anyone at any time and in any quantity He sees fit. God gives as He desires, read the parable of the workers in the vineyard. God is not bound by baptism alone, but God has designed Baptism to be the normative way one is grafted unto Christ.

I wonder that some times, too! I had a friend in College that was, but he sure didn’t live like he was saved. Paul addressed this problem as well (“What then? Shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.” Romans 6:15 DR). If he was an example of OSAS, I thank God I am not!

You would get arguments on your position from many Evangelicals on your previous statement. One being your friend was never saved in the first place.

On the other hand, I see plenty of things in Scripture to convince me that God WILL preserve those whom He has called, and I believe I am one of those.

Do you have any say in this matter? How is this grace received by you? Is a response to grace required by you?

Doesn’t mean I’m perfect (certainly not infallible), but my walk with the Lord has greatly improved since He brought me out of the Catholic Church.

The infalliable thing … what do you mean? Sounds like a cheap shot at what the Church uses when certain conditions are met when teaching faith and morals. If you mean infalliable as being unable to sin … then you are mistaken in your statement.

 

[VociMike]

I brought it up to make a point. The scriptures tell us that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6). How was my baptism in the Catholic Church pleasing to God when I had no faith? How can anyone be saved by baptism if they have no faith? Is a person saved by faith in Jesus Christ, or by baptism? I think the scriptures are clear that faith comes first, then baptism (which is an act of faith, not a duty or obligation).

So babies cannot please God. Then the question becomes, does one need to please God to be saved?

If unbaptized babies don’t go to Heaven, where do they go? What is your scriptural basis for that belief?

The Church teaches simply that we trust in God regarding their fate.