How to answer this JW question?

[Phyllo]

Hi All,
The question is: If the Holy Spirit is a person why doesn’t Paul address him in the opening verses of his letters? Paul mentions Jesus Christ and God but never the Holy Spirit. (Keep in mind they do not believe in the Trinity)

Thanks

 

[fermat]

Hi All,
The question is: If the Holy Spirit is a person why doesn’t Paul address him in the opening verses of his letters? Paul mentions Jesus Christ and God but never the Holy Spirit. (Keep in mind they do not believe in the Trinity)

Thanks

Look to Acts 13:2:
[BIBLEDRB]Acts 13:2[/BIBLEDRB]

Here the Holy Spirit is directly addressing apostles. Sounds like a person to me.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Hi All,
The question is: If the Holy Spirit is a person why doesn’t Paul address him in the opening verses of his letters? Paul mentions Jesus Christ and God but never the Holy Spirit. (Keep in mind they do not believe in the Trinity)

Thanks

I think I would respond by asking: “If the Holy Spirit is not a person, why is He addressed as such in so many other cases?”

I’m not sure about the claim that Paul doesn’t address Him ever, but I do know that He is addressed quiet often.

From scripturecatholic.com/the_holy_spirit.html:

Luke 12:12 - the Holy Spirit will teach you in that hour what you ought to say. He (the Holy Spirit) teaches the faithful.

John 14:17 - the world neither sees Him or knows Him (“Him” is referring to the Holy Spirit). You know Him for He dwells with you.

John 14:26 - the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all I have said to you.

John 15:26 - the Spirit, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness to me. He = the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a person, not a thing.

John 16:7 - if I do not go, the Counselor will not come to you. But if I go, I (Jesus) will send Him to you.

John 16:7 - this verse also proves the filioque (that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son). The Father isn’t just loving the Son; the Son is loving the Father in return, in the same Spirit of love. Therefore, the Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son.

John 16: 8 - when He (the Holy Spirit) comes, He will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment.

John 16:13-14 - when the Spirit of truth comes He will guide you into all truth. He will speak, He will declare and He will glorify.

Acts 8:29; 10:19-20; 11:12;13:2; Rev. 22:17 - the Holy Spirit speaks to us like a human person.

Acts 15:25,28 - it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us. The Holy Spirit, as a divine person, thinks and makes judgments.

Rom. 8:26 - the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words. It is the Spirit Himself, not itself.

Rom. 8:16 - it is the Spirit Himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God. The Spirit is a person.

Rom. 15:30 - I appeal to you by the Lord Jesus and the love of the Spirit. Only persons, rational beings, can love.

1 Cor. 12:11 - the Holy Spirit apportions His gifts to each one individually as He wills. He is the third person of the Godhead.

2 Cor. 13:14 - the Holy Spirit can have fellowship with the faithful like a human person.

Eph. 4:30 - the Holy Spirit can be grieved, just as human persons can be grieved.

(Note that the last sentence associated with each verse is often commentary)

 

[Phyllo]

Hi Fermat and Iron Donkey. I am going to look at these verses. I am courious as to how my frien will respond to them.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Phyllo]

Hi Iron Donkey,

I was reading John 14:26 …the world neither see Him or knows Him (“Him” is referring to the HS). You know Him for He dwells in you.

She has already asked me if the HS is a person how can a person dwell in me. Any help for me as well here?

Thanks

 

[Phyllo]

Hey, I think I just answered my own question. The same as my daughter is a person and lives within me. In my heart, Does that sound right?

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

She has already asked me if the HS is a person how can a person dwell in me. Any help for me as well here?

Thanks

I would tell them a “person” does not always mean a being made up of phyiscall matter; there are spiritual persons that exist as well. Some examples of spiritual persons in the Bible would include Saint Michael the Archangel, Saint Gabriel the Archangel, Lucifer, and all of the angels and demons.

Now can we prove through scripture that a spiritual being can dwell in a physical being? Sure we can because when we read the scriptures we see that there are people who are possessed by demons. Now yes, while the Holy Spirit works and dwells in us in a different way than a demon, the point is still shown that a person can be a spiritual being and that these beings can dwell in human beings.

I don’t know if this helps but I hope it does.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Hey, I think I just answered my own question. The same as my daughter is a person and lives within me. In my heart, Does that sound right?

Probably at least somewhat - I’m a bit fuzzy on specifics of that sort of thing - but I think it’s also important to realize that “personal” does not equate to “corporeal.”

That is, the Holy Spirit is a person, but is not bound within a Body (or even any specific location insofar as He is God and omnipresent), and so there would be no problem saying that He was actually inside of a person. Well, the problem wouldn’t be how that is possible anyway, it’d be “what does that mean given that He’s already everywhere”.

If I had to say what “dwelling within you” meant, I would probably say what you said and also that He is actually helping you - giving you graces and strength etc. Sort of like a fountain of strength sitting inside your heart overflowing goodness and stuff into your soul. Or something.

 

[Phyllo]

I would tell them a “person” does not always mean a being made up of phyiscall matter; there are spiritual persons that exist as well. Some examples of spiritual persons in the Bible would include Saint Michael the Archangel, Saint Gabriel the Archangel, Lucifer, and all of the angels and demons.

Now can we prove through scripture that a spiritual being can dwell in a physical being? Sure we can because when we read the scriptures we see that there are people who are possessed by demons. Now yes, while the Holy Spirit works and dwells in us in a different way than a demon, the point is still shown that a person can be a spiritual being and that these beings can dwell in human beings.

I don’t know if this helps but I hope it does.

Yes. And I thank you for your insights.

 

[Phyllo]

Probably at least somewhat - I’m a bit fuzzy on specifics of that sort of thing - but I think it’s also important to realize that “personal” does not equate to “corporeal.”

That is, the Holy Spirit is a person, but is not bound within a Body (or even any specific location insofar as He is God and omnipresent), and so there would be no problem saying that He was actually inside of a person. Well, the problem wouldn’t be how that is possible anyway, it’d be “what does that mean given that He’s already everywhere”.

If I had to say what “dwelling within you” meant, I would probably say what you said and also that He is actually helping you - giving you graces and strength etc. Sort of like a fountain of strength sitting inside your heart overflowing goodness and stuff into your soul. Or something.

Good points all. Thanks again

 

[paul_c]

Probably at least somewhat - I’m a bit fuzzy on specifics of that sort of thing - but I think it’s also important to realize that “personal” does not equate to “corporeal.”

That is, the Holy Spirit is a person, but is not bound within a Body (or even any specific location insofar as He is God and omnipresent), and so there would be no problem saying that He was actually inside of a person. Well, the problem wouldn’t be how that is possible anyway, it’d be “what does that mean given that He’s already everywhere”.

If I had to say what “dwelling within you” meant, I would probably say what you said and also that He is actually helping you - giving you graces and strength etc. Sort of like a fountain of strength sitting inside your heart overflowing goodness and stuff into your soul. Or something.

Of he three persons in the Trinity, only Jesus is incarnate. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are both spirit. I doubt that a Jehovah witness would say that God the Father isn’t a person. So its an easy extention to show them that the Holy Spirit is similar.

 

[Phyllo]

Of he three persons in the Trinity, only Jesus is incarnate. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit are both spirit. I doubt that a Jehovah witness would say that God the Father isn’t a person. So its an easy extension to show them that the Holy Spirit is similar.

This is another good point. But they also believe that the Holy Spirit is God’s active force(which He is God’s force) and they describe it as an impersonal streak of lightening.

 

[paul_c]

This is another good point. But they also believe that the Holy Spirit is God’s active force(which He is God’s force) and they describe it as an impersonal streak of lightening.

well, they simply don’t understand the truth. Try showing them the scriptural references where Jesus says the spirit will lead them to all truth. Its hard to argue that this can be done with an impersonal streak of lightening.

 

[PastorVW]

The basic problem with JWs is they do not comprehend the obvious truth that any God whose nature can be fully comprehended has been made up by man. The God of the Bible cannot be fully comprehended - we can only understand Him in so far as He reveals Himself to us.

Hence, they force God to exist within the limits of their understanding. God the Father alone can be God because it is too hard to understand the Trinity. Christ must be demoted to the rank of angel for the same reason. The Holy Spirit must also be demoted to an impersonal force so they can understand how He can be submissive to the Father and the Son. They then seek out “proof texts” to justify their position.

Sadly, I have found that the JWs don’t like dialog - the minute you start coming up with good answers or asking questions the local overseer can’t answer (which is not hard to do) they are gone. I have asked the same question of 5 different overseers. Each time they have promised to research it and get back to me. None ever came back with an answer. My guess is that they referred the question to headquarters and they were told to “forget it”.

I have helped a few JWs on their journey into the orthodox Christian faith. The biggest problem is that their faith is in the “organization” rather than Christ and the Bible. They have to comprehend the fact that they have been deceived. Once they get past that, everything else is comparatively easy.

 

[Phyllo]

The basic problem with JEWs is they do not comprehend the obvious truth that any God whose nature can be fully comprehended has been made up by man. The God of the Bible cannot be fully comprehended - we can only understand Him in so far as He reveals Himself to us.

I try to tel my friend this that God can not be completely understood and is a mystery to us. But I guess I don’t have the right words. She seems to think she has full understanding. She does. Witness false understanding.

Hence, they force God to exist within the limits of their understanding. God the Father alone can be God because it is too hard to understand the Trinity. Christ must be demoted to the rank of angel for the same reason. The Holy Spirit must also be demoted to an impersonal force so they can understand how He can be submissive to the Father and the Son. They then seek out “proof texts” to justify their position.

They even wrote their bible that way. The Trinity is hard to understand so therefore it must not be true. Because they understand the entire bible.

Sadly, I have found that the JWs don’t like dialog - the minute you start coming up with good answers or asking questions the local overseer can’t answer (which is not hard to do) they are gone. I have asked the same question of 5 different overseers. Each time they have promised to research it and get back to me. None ever came back with an answer. My guess is that they referred the question to headquarters and they were told to “forget it”

Yes, there is a parable in Matt. 13 about the woman and the yeast. For years they have said that the yeast is a bad thing therefore this parable is to be understood that false Christianity(everyone except JWs).is invading and spreading their lies within the true Christianity(which are the JW’s) It seems that they have since followed the way of the real Christian community and believe as we do. I asked her several times to ask her elders if this is true and she never does. If she does she won’t tell me. Again another 180 deg. turn from their own teaching which is a norm for them.

I pray for my friend but only God can open her eyes to the truth.

 

[T_More]

I have helped a few JWs on their journey into the orthodox Christian faith. The biggest problem is that their faith is in the “organization” rather than Christ and the Bible. They have to comprehend the fact that they have been deceived. Once they get past that, everything else is comparatively easy.

As a former JW, this is very accurate, however, our faith is in Christ and His Church, which makes up His mystical body and will be guided into all truth. In a sense, it’s one of the few things JW’s get right. They claim to be sola scriptura, but in reality, they rely upon the WTBS’s interpretation of scripture.

Their premise of a central authority is scripturally based, but it can’t be them because they have no Apostolic connection and their religion has only been around for a little over 100 years.

 

[paul_c]

As a former JW, this is very accurate, however, our faith is in Christ and His Church, which makes up His mystical body and will be guided into all truth. In a sense, it’s one of the few things JW’s get right. They claim to be sola scriptura, but in reality, they rely upon the WTBS’s interpretation of scripture.

Their premise of a central authority is scripturally based, but it can’t be them because they have no Apostolic connection and their religion has only been around for a little over 100 years.

This is very true. All Christian religions are based on their own traditions because it is by using those traditions that all of us can interpret scripture, whether they be Catholic, Lutheran, Reformed or JW. Once you realize that fact, then it becomes obvious that Catholicism is the one true church, since only it was founded by Jesus through St. Peter and the Apostles. All other Christian denominations have human founders (except the Orthodox) that can be readily identified.

 

[R_A_1]

Hi Iron Donkey,

I was reading John 14:26 …the world neither see Him or knows Him (“Him” is referring to the HS). You know Him for He dwells in you.

She has already asked me if the HS is a person how can a person dwell in me. Any help for me as well here?

Thanks

By calling HS a ‘person’ what people really mean is a distinct person of the Trinity, and not a person in the everyday sense of the word. HS is a spiritual being, and can dwell in us quite easily.

 

[Phyllo]

By calling HS a ‘person’ what people really mean is a distinct person of the Trinity, and not a person in the everyday sense of the word. HS is a spiritual being, and can dwell in us quite easily.

I spoke to her today and told her that. I used the example when Jesus cast out the demons and healed the man. I asked her if Satan was a person and she said yes so I said that Satan was IN the demonic man and she agreed. Then when I said that the HS was a person and lives in every one of us she said that Satan has many minions and the HS is just one so how can He live in every one if he is a person. I told her that He is God and can do anything. I am beginning to get tired of banging my head against a stone wall.

Thank you all for your insights. I know they helped me even if I can’t help her.

 

[paul_c]

I spoke to her today and told her that. I used the example when Jesus cast out the demons and healed the man. I asked her if Satan was a person and she said yes so I said that Satan was IN the demonic man and she agreed. Then when I said that the HS was a person and lives in every one of us she said that Satan has many minions and the HS is just one so how can He live in every one if he is a person. I told her that He is God and can do anything. I am beginning to get tired of banging my head against a stone wall.

Thank you all for your insights. I know they helped me even if I can’t help her.

Don’t be so sure that you aren’t helping her. People need to think about things like this and let them sink in before they convert. I would say that few lasting conversions are accomplished in 1 conversation. Be patient. Also, Satan has demons but God has guardian angels…