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scylla

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I was in ministry formation classes last night and the discussion drifted toward women’s ordination. There was quite a discussion and one woman was very much in favor of women being Priests. I told her that we must be obedient to the Church and as the Pope has defined the Church does not have the authority to ordain Female Priests.
She rejected that and said that she doesn’t agree with many of the Church “man-made rules” and since men wrote the Bible and control everything we can’t trust anything they wrote.
So my quotes from the Bible, the Pope etc are of no use. She responded to my statement of obedience, with, she follows Jesus, not the Church.

Any ideas on what I can say if this comes up next class? Not to win but to encourage her to seek obedience and faithfulness, plus… maybe adherence to Catholic belief.

In Christ
Scylla
 
I agree with you, Betsy, but unfortunately…
The answer to that from the point of view I am dealing with is this…

-The Bible was written by men and that is man’s version of the story.-

It is quite distressing.,
God Bless
Scylla
 
scylla said:
I agree with you, Betsy, but unfortunately…
The answer to that from the point of view I am dealing with is this…

-The Bible was written by men and that is man’s version of the story.-

It is quite distressing.,
God Bless
Scylla
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I can imagine. Scripture may have been penned by men, but inspired by the Holy Spirit. Perhaps it might be worthwhile to ask that she believes that such is the case, or is the Holy Spirit in error. 🤷
 
Turn the tables on her and ask her this question: What about the Blessed Virgin Mary? She is not a priest nor did she ever aspire to be one, yet, she holds a unique and singular place in the Church. She was obedient to the Holy Spirit.
 
Sr. Sara Butler, who used to be a proponent of women’s ordination, wrote a good book on the subject of women and the priesthood. In fact that might be the title of the book. I don’t have time to look up quotes from her, but she made a complete turn around from her former way of thinking and explains, in a very clear way, why the CHurch cannot ordain women. She is on the faculty of St. Joseph’s Seminary in the archdiocese of NY and on some Pontifical commission. Perhaps you can get the book and give it to her, or get it for the program in case the topic comes up again…and it will.
 
Once a protestant accepts Authority, they cease to be Protestant and run to the Church. Pray for this woman, that she will someday cease to be protestant and run to the Church.

There are good apologetic books on the topic, one is “By What Authority” (author name excapes me, may be Currie…)
 
scylla said:
I was in ministry formation classes last night and the discussion drifted toward women’s ordination.
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There is no such thing as women’s ordination any more than there is such as thing as male pregnancy. 😉
scylla said:
I was in ministry formation classes last night and the discussion drifted toward women’s ordination. There was quite a discussion and one woman was very much in favor of women being Priests.
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What type of “ministry formation” is this? That sounds like a questionable name for whatever program included this class.
scylla said:
So my quotes from the Bible, the Pope etc are of no use. She responded to my statement of obedience, with, she follows Jesus, not the Church.
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What exactly does she believe about Our Lord, and how does she selectively decide what she chooses to believe and what she does not? If she follows Our Lord, does she not follow his commissioning of Peter, with the powers of binding and loosing? And if that falls under tha “men wrote the bible” bit, why does she even believe in Our Lord at all? :confused:
 
A few thoughts for your consideration based on Luke 10 (excerpts below)

Lk 10:1–Jesus sends out the seventy-two…Jesus…no one else sends them.

Lk 10: 10-14–Jesus tells them what will happen to towns (PERSONS) who do not receive them and Jesus’ Good News. Jesus…no one else can say what the consequences will be for not receiving his messengers…with his Good News…he uses towns as examples…but you can easily apply the consequences to each person in the town…including each person throughout time and history…including each of us today.

Lk 10:16…This is the “bottom line”…(or as Michael says to Sonny in the Godfather…
“its nothing personal, Sonny…its strictly business…”). Jesus bluntly tells each of us…whoever listens to them[Peter and the apostles (bishops)…listens to him…whoever rejects them…rejects him and whoever rejects him…rejects the one who sent him (the Father…the really “bad news” in any town’s or person’s life in any age!).

Ask your friend if she believes in what Jesus said in Luke 10:16…it is a Yes or No answer. I can sympathize with her emotional response to the issue of women priests and ordination…but Jesus has spoken…and over 2000 years through Peter he has spoken the same words…the case is closed unless Jesus’ Holy Spirit himself opens it for the Church.

Lastly…**if **your friend says that she still doesn’t accept – (understanding it…liking it and being emotionally at ease with it are not the same thing…they are not a requirement – nice to have the grace of wisdom and understanding…but the bottom line is always Faith in Jesus and the ones He Sends…which means we have faith in the One [Father] who sent Jesus) – tell her that what **she is really saying **is (as Peter Kreeft, convert, author & Prof of Philosophy, Boston College, would say that she is loudly and proudly declaring):

Ah…excuse me Jesus, but I believe that you are sitting on my Throne! …and…
Ah…excuse me Peter, but I believe that you are sitting in my Chair!

Woe…to all of us who do not accept whom he sends…on any issue of faith and morals…and I believe we all have to struggle with “accepting” somethings that the Church proclaims…that It does or does not do…but, again, the bottom line is Faith in Jesus Christ…and the One who sent Him!

Pax Christi

**Luke
*Chapter 10
NAB
1 After this the Lord appointed seventy (-two) others whom he [JESUS] sent ahead of him in pairs to every town and place he intended to visit.
10 Whatever town you enter and they do not receive you, go out into the streets and say, 11 ‘The dust of your town that clings to our feet, even that we shake off against you.’ Yet know this: the kingdom of God is at hand. 12 I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Sodom on that day than for that town. 13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment than for you.​
16 Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”​
 
scylla said:
. . . she doesn’t agree with many of the Church “man-made rules” and since men wrote the Bible and control everything we can’t trust anything they wrote.
So my quotes from the Bible, the Pope etc are of no use. She responded to my statement of obedience, with, she follows Jesus, not the Church.
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Break the news to this woman very gently that she is not a Catholic and should find a denomination more to her liking, She may have a problem though, since most Protestant denominations do require that she accept the Bible as God’s word and inerrant. Maybe she would like to convert to Secular Humanism or perhaps Bhuddism?
 
scylla said:
I was in ministry formation classes last night and the discussion drifted toward women’s ordination. There was quite a discussion and one woman was very much in favor of women being Priests. I told her that we must be obedient to the Church and as the Pope has defined the Church does not have the authority to ordain Female Priests.
She rejected that and said that she doesn’t agree with many of the Church “man-made rules” and since men wrote the Bible and control everything we can’t trust anything they wrote.
So my quotes from the Bible, the Pope etc are of no use. She responded to my statement of obedience, with, she follows Jesus, not the Church.

Any ideas on what I can say if this comes up next class? Not to win but to encourage her to seek obedience and faithfulness, plus… maybe adherence to Catholic belief.

In Christ
Scylla
Click to expand...
I guess the question is what exactly she views as authoritative. :confused:

If she rejects the authority of the Church on the grounds of “male dominated” and rejects the scriptures on the grounds of “male dominated,” she has rejected Scripture and Sacred Tradition, which we consider the “Word of God.”

So what’s left? If she won’t accept the Bible or the Church, then what sort of version of Jesus does she have knowledge of to follow?

There’s another issue. Because she says “since men wrote the Bible and control everything we can’t trust anything they wrote,” then she is saying in effect “men cannot be trusted.”

So, does that mean Jesus taught differently, but the Apostles lied and suppressed the truth?

Sounds like she’s been exposed to people like Elaine Pagels and the so-called “Gospel of Mary Magdeline” (which alleges Mary Magdeline was the enlightened disciple of Jesus, and the apostles were jealous and tried to suppress her).

So we have something here something like an unquestionable “cult mentality.” The logical fallacies that come to mind here are the Circumstantial Ad Hominem.

This runs on the following premise:
A Circumstantial ad Hominem is a fallacy in which one attempts to attack a claim by asserting that the person making the claim is making it simply out of self interest. In some cases, this fallacy involves substituting an attack on a person’s circumstances (such as the person’s religion, political affiliation, ethnic background, etc.). The fallacy has the following forms:
  1. Person A makes claim X.
  2. Person B asserts that A makes claim X because it is in A’s interest to claim X.
  3. Therefore claim X is false.
    So this woman, when confronted with the teaching that Christ only chose men, says “Well the Church says that because they are men.”
The fact that Men were the ones who wrote the Gospel does not mean they falsified the teaching of Christ to make a men-only clergy of their own.

So long as she clings to this however, I don’t see her as accepting what the Church teaches.
 
scylla said:
I was in ministry formation classes last night and the discussion drifted toward women’s ordination. There was quite a discussion and one woman was very much in favor of women being Priests. I told her that we must be obedient to the Church and as the Pope has defined the Church does not have the authority to ordain Female Priests.
She rejected that and said that she doesn’t agree with many of the Church “man-made rules” and since men wrote the Bible and control everything we can’t trust anything they wrote.
So my quotes from the Bible, the Pope etc are of no use. She responded to my statement of obedience, with, she follows Jesus, not the Church.
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I would say (but I am a wee bit of a smarta**):

OK, so since you follow Jesus, how do you know what Jesus wants you to do (remember, no Scripture or early church fathers or councils or catechisms - all made up by bad men)? Oh, I see, Jesus tells you in your heart and mind what He wants you to do.

…ah, but wait, my sister. You see, He is telling me in my heart and mind what He wants me to do and it is completely opposite from what He is telling you. He would not lie to either one of us, whould He (even though He came in the form of a man)? So, which one of us is correct? Why is it you and not me? How can we both follow Jesus if we don’t know what He wants?

…you know what, I bet one of us is listening to someone else. Could it be … Satan? Now, which one of us do you think is listening to Satan and which one of us to Jesus? Is it the person who follows the Church Jesus founded or the one who does not?

P.S. - just what ministry formation was she in?
 
I don’t know that there is any answer that will satisfy her. In fact, I would strongly recommend to whomever is in charge of “ministry formation” at your parish (and I should hope it would be your parish priest) that this woman be removed from the ministry prep classes and be placed in catechism classes, instead. Anyone who openly professes not to follow Church teaching should in no way, shape, or form be in any parish ministry.
 
My husband was talking to one of his coworkers about this same subject. She is a lapsed Catholic and one reason why she is having a hard time coming back is because of the women-priest issue. I’m not sure if this is a good explanation, but this is what he used with her.

Women have a special, almost elevated role in the church (look at Mary). The Church is the bride of Christ, and women specifically fulfill that role. Women are allowed to dedicate their lives to serving Christ and his Church without the requirement to “work” as men/priests are required to do. It doesn’t mean the women have a lower station than men, but our calling/vocation is different. Nuns are still allowed to teach, but they don’t have the burden of pastoring a flock like the Priests do. It isn’t because they can’t handle it, but because Christ has given them a different role in his Church.

There are plenty of examples of women leaders in the new testiment. Paul specifically names several of them in Romans chapter 16: Phoebe, Prisca, Julia, Mary to name a few. They were servants/ministers of the church. Their role still important, but not the same as the priests.
 
The priest acts “in persona Christi Capitis”, in the person of Christ, the Head of His Body, the Church. Since Jesus was a man only a man can become a priest. The Church is only following in the footsteps of Jesus as He has only male Apostles. This Tradition has been carried on since the time of Christ.

When she said that she follows Jesus, not the Church she is incorrect and SHE is the one who is making “man-made rules”. There is no difference between Jesus and the Church as the Church is the Body of Christ. They are one and the same.

If she will not follow scripture because they were written by men, then she will refuse to follow the Holy Spirit. For as was pointed out, scripture was written by men who were inspiried by the Holy Spirit. If she refuses to believe scripture or the Church then she is left with nothing except rules of her own making.
 
kage_ar said:
Once a protestant accepts Authority, they cease to be Protestant and run to the Church.
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Yup. 👍
That’s my story.
Went looking for a good bible commentary, and stumbled upon Tradition and Authority!
 
The US constitution was written by men - so was the Bill of Rights, the French Declaration of Human Rights, (I think) the UN Charter of Human Rights and the Geneva Convention. For that matter every US President has been male - so have most world leaders of other countries.

I supppose this means that none of them are worth listening to either :rolleyes:
 
scylla said:
I agree with you, Betsy, but unfortunately…
The answer to that from the point of view I am dealing with is this…

-The Bible was written by men and that is man’s version of the story.-

It is quite distressing.,
God Bless
Scylla
Click to expand...
So how does she intend to follow Jesus without the man made bible?

In any case, I think we must continue to pray for her & her kiln. I’d try to get a nun to talk with her.
 
Thank you for all the responses and advice. I am in diocesan formation classes which is supposed to form us as Catholics to better serve others in our faith. (PMFP)
I wont say specifically, but you can search and figure it out.
(my diocese has some problems, but it is getting better)

I go to class every Thursday night, and I think the instructor agreed with the Church but didn’t really want to enter into the conflict, so I ended almost the only person trying to defend the Church as most everyone was on the other side, except for some who kept quiet. (I do not know what they think) One lady did say one comment to help, which was nice.​

“Sounds like she’s been exposed to people like Elaine Pagels and the so-called “Gospel of Mary Magdeline” (which alleges Mary Magdeline was the enlightened disciple of Jesus, and the apostles were jealous and tried to suppress her).”
Wow! This surprised me as it sounds spot on, she did mention that Mary Magdalene was suppressed by the apostles. I will have to look up that book.

Thanks for that comment on how the Constitution, Bill of Rights, etc was written by men. Good point, I will use that in the future!

Thanks for all who chimed in, pray that I will not mess up and I can charitable help, in some way, to defend the faith in my classes.

In Christ
Scylla

(Luke Chapter 10:16, I will keep that in mind)
 
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