How to approach my pastor

[Magnum_V8]

I would like to approach my pastor about some issues regarding the liturgy. My problem is that I don’t know how to go about it. I’m on the parish council; newly elected actually. I’ve been in the parish for 3 years. I was recently asked, and I accepted, to be an usher. My wife is a server. Just this past weekend, my wife served and our pastor (only parish priest) asked her if she and I would come to a few RCIA classes in the fall to encourage and tell our story of conversion (her) and reversion (me) to the two people that will be in the class. So, I do think that our pastor feels the faith is very important to us, which it truly is.

But there are some things about the liturgy that I want to suggest, but not in a way that I will offend him. For example:

• Sacred silence in church before Mass (its just way too loud now)
• Use of Latin for Agnus Dei, Sanctus…Greek Kyrie
• Kneeling (we don’t have kneelers and nobody kneels except for me)

There are other things also. I want him to take the things I say seriously, and I don’t think after Mass is an appropriate time to discuss this. I was considering writing a letter, and personally handing it to him, telling him to read it over and call me to set up an appointment at his convenience to discuss these things.

Are issues like these relevant to parish councils? Or would a liturgical committee be more appropriate? We don’t have a liturgical committee, though.

Any thoughts at all?

 

[gvogt4]

It would probably be best to schedule a time to speak with him. You could let him know at the meeting that these things are on your mind, that you would like to know what he thinks about them, and if there are ways you could be of additional assistance to him.

Just a thought. oh, just in case, congratulations on your new assignment as Liturgy Coordinator.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Make an appointment, speak to him privately (don’t gang up on him), and speak with respect and charity. If you have a lot of “issues” to discuss, prioritize and start with just a couple that are most important. In your own mind, differentiate between what *needs *to be changed (e.g., lack of reverence) and what you would *like *to change (e.g., Latin and Greek — your parish may or may not be ready for this).

 

[InLight247]

But there are some things about the liturgy that I want to suggest, but not in a way that I will offend him. For example:

• Sacred silence in church before Mass (its just way too loud now)
• Use of Latin for Agnus Dei, Sanctus…Greek Kyrie
• Kneeling (we don’t have kneelers and nobody kneels except for me)

Any thoughts at all?

I would not hand him a letter. I would make an appointment.
When you sit down and engage a conversation, you can see his response and continue the conversation from there.

For example, “Father, I noticed people are getting louder and louder before Mass starts. How can we remind people keep sacred silence to show respect to Jesus?”

And see what he would say. We should always show our respect to the priest.

For “Latin”, it seems to be your personal preference…

For “kneeling”, if there is no kneeler, It won’t be appropriate to demand the congregation to kneel.

As far as I know about Parish Council, they are mainly there for supporting. I too, am recently selected as a new Council member. I would not present myself with many opinions to start with. I will humbly learn and carefully build report with other members and the pastor first.

 

[otjm]

• Sacred silence in church before Mass (its just way too loud now)

Sacred Silence is a term used for silence between readings, after the homily, and at the end of Communion. Using the term Sacred Silence probably won’t get you very far as it is a specific term. Try, rather, to suggest ways for some silence before Mass starts to allow people to collect thier thoughts and prepare for Mass.

• Use of Latin for Agnus Dei, Sanctus…Greek Kyrie

Good luck. Maybe you could suggest an occasional use of them; rightly or wrongly it seems to be almost universal that these prayers are said in English. Getting into the Vatican 2 document on the Liturgy, and any commentaries since then probably won’t get you myuch of any hearing; and again, I am not judging the rightness or wrongness; just the fact that English has become pervasive.

• Kneeling (we don’t have kneelers and nobody kneels except for me)

Again, good luck. I know of no parishes in my area that are standing. If they don’t have the traditional pews, but use folding chairs, I suspect that it will take a new pastor or a new bishop to accomplish this.

There are other things also. I want him to take the things I say seriously, and I don’t think after Mass is an appropriate time to discuss this. I was considering writing a letter, and personally handing it to him, telling him to read it over and call me to set up an appointment at his convenience to discuss these things.

Not good at all. The first thing is that hardly anyone I know wants a letter that comes off like a list of complaints. Speaking with him (not at him) will allow you to determine after the first issue if he is even open to any of your ideas; and if he isn’t, stop right then. Keep in mind that you have a parish that from appearances seems to like or at least accept the way things are right now; the lieklyhood of you bringing about any changes, let a lone a number of them, is, frankly, low. That is not to ssugest that ny or all of them are not good suggestions, but like a large ship under steerage, it takes a whole lot to change its direction.

Are issues like these relevant to parish councils? Or would a liturgical committee be more appropriate? We don’t have a liturgical committee, though.

Any thoughts at all?

Ah, yes, liturgical committees. In any parish which is not following the norm, that is a good place to make a one time stand and then be prepeared to leave the parish, as it is probably the most unlikely place to effect changes without a change in pastors. And members. Remember; this has been going o for how long - 20 or 30 years or more?

As to the parish council, no, that is not generally where such issues are broached.

Good luck and God bless.

 

[Magnum_V8]

oh, just in case, congratulations on your new assignment as Liturgy Coordinator.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Fabulous responses. Thanks so much. I’m glad I posted here first.

Unfortunately, I haven’t been absolutely clear on a few things.

We sing the Latin Agnus Dei and Sanctus during Lent. So, its not really a matter of “introducing” the Latin forms.

The kneelers were removed about 10 years ago, from what I hear, by a priest that is no longer a priest, again, from what I hear. I kneel and our pastor has never made a comment about it.

Side note: no one, not even the pastor, genuflects in front of the tabernacle at Sunday Mass. Correct that, the pastor does only when he puts the host back in the tabernacle. But at weekday mass, he genuflects when approaching the altar. One weekday mass I attended the people prayed a Miraculous Medal Novena after, and the pastor knelt down on the floor in front of the Mary statue.

Thanks for clearing up the “sacred silence” terminology.

 

[John_Lilburne]

…
Side note: no one, not even the pastor, genuflects in front of the tabernacle at Sunday Mass. Correct that, the pastor does only when he puts the host back in the tabernacle. But at weekday mass, he genuflects when approaching the altar. …

Not genuflecting to the tabernacle during Mass is correct. It should only be done at the beginning and end of Mass.

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“… During Mass, three genuflections are made by the priest celebrant: namely, after the showing of the host, after the showing of the chalice, and before Communion. Certain specific features to be observed in a concelebrated Mass are noted in their proper place (cf. above, nos. 210-251).
If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect when they approach the altar and when they depart from it, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.
Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.”

 

[chicago]

Fabulous responses. Thanks so much. I’m glad I posted here first.

Unfortunately, I haven’t been absolutely clear on a few things.

We sing the Latin Agnus Dei and Sanctus during Lent. So, its not really a matter of “introducing” the Latin forms.

The kneelers were removed about 10 years ago, from what I hear, by a priest that is no longer a priest, again, from what I hear. I kneel and our pastor has never made a comment about it.

Side note: no one, not even the pastor, genuflects in front of the tabernacle at Sunday Mass. Correct that, the pastor does only when he puts the host back in the tabernacle. But at weekday mass, he genuflects when approaching the altar. One weekday mass I attended the people prayed a Miraculous Medal Novena after, and the pastor knelt down on the floor in front of the Mary statue.

Thanks for clearing up the “sacred silence” terminology.

Here’s what I’d do if I were you. Sometime, approach the pastor about the possibility of leading a fundraising effort to install new kneelers. Play a little dumb, if need be. “I know how hard it is for everyone to kneel on the floor, and so most of us stand for the Eucharistic Prayer. But I was wondering if there is, perhaps, something I can do to help raise funds so we can once again have kneelers and provide the possibility to everyone again.”

As far as Latin goes, just say some positive, encouraging words come Lent or whenever it gets used. “Wow, I really thought that was pretty neat. This is what I liked about it… I wish we could use those Latin responses a little more often, even outside of this season. I would find it spiritually enriching.”

If you can try to build upon what already is and move in a positive way towards what is possible, you will likely meet less resistance and perhaps find common opportunities. If nothing else, your pastor will know that you are not adversarial about this, but simply sincere and understanding of some of the frustrating challenges which he faces in trying to deal with multiple forces and factions that have differing desires. But if you are seen as a friend rather than a foe and if you can help develop like minded people who will actively assist him in his ministry, then he may well be willing to let you have at it in the long run.

 

[Magnum_V8]

Not genuflecting to the tabernacle during Mass is correct. It should only be done at the beginning and end of Mass.

From the 2002 General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) approved for the USA, which can be accessed from romanrite.com/girm.html :
“… During Mass, three genuflections are made by the priest celebrant: namely, after the showing of the host, after the showing of the chalice, and before Communion. Certain specific features to be observed in a concelebrated Mass are noted in their proper place (cf. above, nos. 210-251).
If, however, the tabernacle with the Most Blessed Sacrament is present in the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the other ministers genuflect when they approach the altar and when they depart from it, but not during the celebration of Mass itself.
Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.”

Another misleading statement by me.

Sorry, I should have said that the servers, lectors and EMHC’s don’t ever genuflect in front of the tabernacle. I wasn’t necessarily referring to the priest.

At Mass on Sunday, in my parish, the procession stops at the altar and bows. No one genuflects.

 

[jmcrae]

Another misleading statement by me.

Sorry, I should have said that the servers, lectors and EMHC’s don’t ever genuflect in front of the tabernacle. I wasn’t necessarily referring to the priest.

In the middle of Mass, they should not. During Mass, we bow to the Altar when we have to move from place to place. It’s only outside of Mass that we genuflect to the Tabernacle, as Mr. Linburne has already mentioned.

At Mass on Sunday, in my parish, the procession stops at the altar and bows. No one genuflects.

They are still moving in procession - we don’t genuflect when we are in a procession, even if the procession has stopped moving.

We genuflect when we come into the Church before Mass (Hello, Jesus) and then we genuflect again when we are leaving, after Mass (Bye, Jesus) but never while Mass is actually going on, just like you don’t say “hello” or “goodbye” right in the middle of a conversation.

 

[Magnum_V8]

jmcrae,

I’m not quite sure I understand your interpretation. I’m not arguing, though.

The GIRM says: “Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.”

This seems to me it would indicate that when the acolyte brings the book over to the priest, when he stops in front of the tabernacle, he should genuflect. When I think of “moving in procession” I think of a non-stop procession. At the beginning of Mass, the procession stops at the altar; while carrying the book over to the priest, the acolyte stops in front of the tabernacle; when the lector approaches the altar, the lector stops in front of the tabernacle. At all these points, in my parish, a bow is made.

I was an altar boy growing up and was instructed to genuflect every time I pass in front of the tabernacle. I was also instructed to genuflect every time I get in or out of the pew.

I’m an usher at my parish, and when we (the four of us) walk up our respective aisle from the back to the front, at the beginning of the offertory collection, we all genuflect in unison when we reach the area in front of the front-most pews; and then proceed back, collecting the offertory.

And I realize the GIRM is for the Novus Ordo, but at the Tridentine Mass, the priest and altar boys genuflect everytime they pass in front of the tabernacle. I’m not turning this into a TLM vs. NO. But the fact is Jesus is present in the tabernacle in both masses.

Again, I’m not arguing or debating.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae,

I’m not quite sure I understand your interpretation. I’m not arguing, though.

The GIRM says: “Otherwise all who pass before the Most Blessed Sacrament genuflect, unless they are moving in procession.”

This is talking about “other than” during Mass.

This seems to me it would indicate that when the acolyte brings the book over to the priest, when he stops in front of the tabernacle, he should genuflect.

He does this during Mass, does he not? We don’t genuflect during Mass.

When I think of “moving in procession” I think of a non-stop procession. At the beginning of Mass, the procession stops at the altar; while carrying the book over to the priest, the acolyte stops in front of the tabernacle; when the lector approaches the altar, the lector stops in front of the tabernacle. At all these points, in my parish, a bow is made.

Yes, that’s proper. They are still part of the procession, at that point in the movement. Mass is just about to begin. They all genuflected when they came into the building, as they were going into the Sacristy to get ready for Mass.

I was an altar boy growing up and was instructed to genuflect every time I pass in front of the tabernacle. I was also instructed to genuflect every time I get in or out of the pew.

That was the Tridentine Mass, right? Different Mass, different rubrics.

I’m an usher at my parish, and when we (the four of us) walk up our respective aisle from the back to the front, at the beginning of the offertory collection, we all genuflect in unison when we reach the area in front of the front-most pews; and then proceed back, collecting the offertory.

Well, again, we are not supposed to genuflect during Mass.

And I realize the GIRM is for the Novus Ordo, but at the Tridentine Mass, the priest and altar boys genuflect everytime they pass in front of the tabernacle. I’m not turning this into a TLM vs. NO. But the fact is Jesus is present in the tabernacle in both masses.

Yes, He is, but the Paul VI Mass is an

ongoing conversation

with Christ. (This is what is meant by “active participation” with regard to the Paul VI Mass - we are all supposed to be directing our thoughts and prayers towards Christ throughout the Mass.)

We don’t (normally) interrupt ourselves in the middle of an ongoing conversation to say “Hello” or “goodbye” every five minutes.

I hope this helps you.

 

[Magnum_V8]

jmcrae,

You’ve certainly given me some things to ponder.

BTW, no, I didn’t grow up in the Tridentine. But the priests I had as a child were very orthodox.

I’m sorry if I missed it already, but is it your opinion that we don’t genuflect during mass, or is there a church ruling saying so?

Also, the ongoing conversation, as you put it…how is that perceived when the priest spends most of the Mass with his back to Jesus Christ?

Again, I’m not arguing. Sorry for saying it so many times but my online conversations as of late have been heated to say the least.

One last thing. I don’t know if you agree or not, but reverence for Jesus shouldn’t be based on which rite of the Mass is being celebrated. So to say that reverence can be (A) in the Tridentine, but (B) in the Novus Ordo doesn’t sound logical. I guess that’s why I’m having trouble understanding why genuflecting in the Old Mass every time one passes in front of the tabernacle shouldn’t carry over into the New Mass.

 

[jmcrae]

I’m sorry if I missed it already, but is it your opinion that we don’t genuflect during mass, or is there a church ruling saying so?

It was in the GIRM section that you were quoting from.

One last thing. I don’t know if you agree or not, but reverence for Jesus shouldn’t be based on which rite of the Mass is being celebrated.

Obviously not, but the act of genuflecting has a different meaning in the Paul VI Mass (hello, conversation, goodbye) than it does in the Tridentine Mass, which is not a conversation with Jesus, but more the act of just sitting and waiting quietly in His presence. “Active participation,” though not discouraged, was not expected or required.

 

[Magnum_V8]

jmcrae,

Yeah, I wasn’t reading the GIRM section thoroughly. I see it now.

So the people in the procession are absolutely supposed to genuflect approaching the altar and departing from it…beginning and end. Correct?

I don’t see anything in that section of the GIRM that says the general assembly shouldn’t genuflect each time upon entering or exiting the pews, nor does it say anything about ushers, who aren’t included in the procession. That seems to me like it would be a personal choice. I just don’t relate genuflecting to the words “hello” or “goodbye.” I think of it more as just an acknowledgment.

And about the Tridentine Mass:

I absolutely disagree with your description that its just “sitting and waiting.” The 1962 Missal encourages you to “pray the Mass.” While it may not be possible to do it aloud, it doesn’t necessarily mean its just sitting and waiting.

Also, the altar servers are fairly active in participation, and they genuflect ascending and descending the altar, and such; seems like they say “hello” and “goodbye” constantly. And that’s why I don’t see genuflecting as saying “hello” or “goodbye.” So I don’t understand your relationship between active participation and not genuflecting.

But don’t get me wrong, I’m not arguing, “well, its like this in the Tridentine, so it should be like this in the Novus Ordo.” I understand there’s a difference. I just don’t agree with your reasoning.

You’ve helped out tremendously, though. Thanks.

 

[jmcrae]

jmcrae,

Yeah, I wasn’t reading the GIRM section thoroughly. I see it now.

So the people in the procession are absolutely supposed to genuflect approaching the altar and departing from it…beginning and end. Correct?

When they come into the Church, and when they leave the Church.

Not while in procession, and not while Mass is going on.

I don’t see anything in that section of the GIRM that says the general assembly shouldn’t genuflect each time upon entering or exiting the pews,

They do this when they first enter the Church, and when they leave at the end of Mass. Hopefully they are not leaving their pews during Mass, other than to receive Holy Communion. We don’t genuflect when we leave or enter the pew during Holy Communion.

nor does it say anything about ushers, who aren’t included in the procession. That seems to me like it would be a personal choice.

Yes, it would seem so.

I just don’t relate genuflecting to the words “hello” or “goodbye.” I think of it more as just an acknowledgment.

Well, this is the explanation that was given to me by my pastor - he took me aside and explained it to me, because when I was doing the readings, I was genuflecting when I came up to the Ambo, and then again when I came down, and he was saying, no - just bow to the Altar, then walk straight up to the Ambo, do the reading, and then come straight back down to your pew - don’t genuflect all the time, because we don’t genuflect in the middle of Mass - and that’s when he explained to me that genuflecting is a greeting to Christ - hello and goodbye - and we don’t do that in the middle of the conversation, meaning, the middle of the Mass.

And about the Tridentine Mass:

About that, I don’t really know, but obviously it has a different meaning in that context, for whatever reason.

 

[PauseBreak]

Maybe you could give him the book The Spirit of the Liturgy by Pope Benedict XVI.

ignatius.com/ViewProduct.aspx?SID=1&Product_ID=773&SKU=SPIL-H&Category_ID=17

 

[quiet52]

from the GIRM (General Instructions of the Roman Missal):

1. On reaching the altar the priest and ministers make the proper reverence, that is, a low bow or, if there is a tabernacle containing the blessed sacrament, a genuflection.
   If the cross has been carried in the procession, it is placed near the altar or at some other convenient place; the candles carried by the servers are placed near the altar or on a side table; the Book of the Gospels is placed on the altar.

(my note: if anyone is carrying anything (the Book of the Gospels, crucifix, or candle) they do not genuflect – they merely bow. In my parish, the celebrant ALWAYS genuflects before the altar, because it’s between him and the altar. Then he goes around to the front of the altar and kisses it).

1. The priest goes up to the altar and kisses it. If incense is used, he incenses the altar while circling it.
2. Three genuflections are made during Mass: after the showing of the eucharistic bread, after the showing of the chalice, and before communion.

(my note: this refers to the celebrant genuflecting, not the congregants)

If there is a tabernacle with the blessed sacrament in the sanctuary, a genuflection is made before and after Mass and whenever anyone passes in front of the blessed sacrament.

(my note: if an altar server is to pass in front of the tabernacle in order to bring the missal to the celebrant, he/she would bow rather than genuflect toward the Blessed Sacrament)

1. There are two kinds of bow, a bow of the head and a bow of the body:

a. A bow of the head is made when the three divine Persons are named together and at the name of Jesus, Mary and the saint in whose honor Mass is celebrated.

b. A bow of the body, or profound bow, is made: toward the altar if there is no tabernacle with the blessed sacrament; during the prayers, <Almighty God, cleanse> and <Lord God, we ask you to receive>; within the profession of faith at the words, ; in Eucharistic Prayer I (Roman Canon) at the words, <Almighty God, we pray>. The same kind of bow is made by the deacon when he asks the blessing before the gospel. In addition, the priest bends over slightly as he says the words of the Lord at the consecration.