How to become a CAF-level apologist?

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I just recently defended my faith against a group of Atheists and while I did think I did a pretty decent job I didn’t do a good job. I’ve seen several CAF debates and I’ve really fallen in love with the way you guys say things. How does one become like this? My fan-boyism with you guys has grown to a point where I can’t see this forum losing. I wave you guys everywhere as a stand for Catholic Apologetics when I can’t do as good as a job. It makes me feel horrible. When atheists throw me questions that I can’t comfortably answer I know you guys can do it. I have this thing going at the back of my mind, “Man, if only this guy was in CAF, things would be so good”. How do you do it?

You guys make skeptics look like potatoes. I can’t say the same for other forums I’ve been to. Atheists usually rule the casual non-religious and even a lot of religious forums. I know they’re wrong but I can’t do a thing. Fess up guys, what’s the secret?

Of course there are hardcore atheists as well who give challenging questions but lets leave that topic for another time.
 
It’s awesome that you want to learn more about your faith and be better able to explain it to others. I don’t think any of us ever “master” apologetics. There is always way more to learn than what we already know- one of the great things about being Catholic.

I’d suggest reading a lot of good Catholic books. If there is any particular area of the faith that you are interested in, I might be able to offer some more particular suggestions.

Listen to good Catholic things. My favorite source for talks is audiosancto.org. If you have an ipod or mp3 player, downloading all the sermons on that site and listening while you drive is a great way to learn about the faith.

Finally, pray. Pray without ceasing. You can be the most “book smart” Catholic apologist ever, but if you are not a man or woman of prayer you will be a horrible evangelist. Even if you lead swarms of people to the Church, if you lose your own soul, you’ve lost. Pray the rosary daily. Make frequent use of the sacrament of Penance and get to Mass as often as you can.

Pax Christi
 
Dan_Daly said:
I’d suggest reading a lot of good Catholic books. If there is any particular area of the faith that you are interested in, I might be able to offer some more particular suggestions.
Pax Christi
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I need more help defending my faith against atheists. I think I can satisfyingly defend myself against Protestants. Do you know any books that might help?

I mean, I know a good number of counters to Atheistic claims but the questions they throw can be endless to an amateur apologist. This is because they have no beliefs and that they can nit-pick an endless number of questions from any faith that they see as stupid or unreasonable through a rationalization stemming from a pre-conceived mindset that Religion is illogical and that all evidence or any information going for it must be scratched off, considered fake at first glance due to its biased and false text.

This is an utter disadvantage because Catholicism is such a broad faith that it is impossible to know completely in one lifetime!
Finally, pray. Pray without ceasing. You can be the most “book smart” Catholic apologist ever, but if you are not a man or woman of prayer you will be a horrible evangelist. Even if you lead swarms of people to the Church, if you lose your own soul, you’ve lost. Pray the rosary daily. Make frequent use of the sacrament of Penance and get to Mass as often as you can.
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Alright. I already have plans for confession tommorow.

I have a party today so I’ll visit the topic again tommorow.
 
I think the best arguments against atheism are found in the natural law that God writes on each man’s heart. Following atheism to its logical conclusions leads to anarchy, brutality, dispair, and death. That’s why most atheists don’t follow it the logical conclusions.

If there is no standard of right and wrong external to man, why can’t you or I or anyone else do whatever they want. If my neighbor has a nicer car than me, why can’t I simply kill him and take it?

“Well because society couldn’t function like that”

So? Who determined that society needs to function?

“the majority”

So? Who says that the majority is right and the minority is wrong? 3 men and 2 women stranded on a desert island. They hold a vote on what to do. The men carry the vote 3-2 and proceed to rape the women. That’s democracy. Is it right? If not, why not?

Pax
 
The best weapon against atheists is logic. It’s really that simple. In my experience with atheists so far, most of their arguments turn out to be extremely fallacious. It’s kind of fun to watch since they always claim to have the logic behind them…but all they really have are emotional responses and pet peeves with the Catholic Church (crusades, inquisition, abuse scandal, conspiracies, etc) that have nothing to do with arguments presented and especially nothing to do with Jesus himself (…you’ll note very quickly that they will NEVER touch the teachings of Jesus…). Watch out for the inevitable red herrings.

Quite honestly, all they really have is the Argument from Evil to work with, and even that argument has been abandoned by scholarship…so, study that argument and how to refute it. A really great resource are these two Philosophers: Peter Kreeft (Catholic, peterkreeft.com) and William Lane Craig (Protestant, reasonablefaith.org). Craig is really good and has almost every argument that we have on our side of the fence…just be cautious of his Protestant views which have mostly to do with Justification, Faith alone, etc.

Good luck.
 
I agree with catholicgamer. Logic is important. Philosophy is needed, too.

Atheists often try to set the table their way. They ask for proof of God. Show them the evidence and reasoning. Education is key. They mostly don’t know what the Catholic faith teaches and work from the skeptics bible and some key talking points. The old atheists did a better job, but their arguments have been rebutted. The new atheists can become quite shrill and forceful. They really have no arguments, but become belligerent and forceful.

I do not bother to debate them in an un-moderated forum.

Keep an even temper. Show them how their belief if irrational. They cannot stand that.😃
 
This is a really really simple fix. Follow the 3 step program and you too can become a Super Duper Ultra Kung Fu Master of Apologetics! In three easy steps I’ll show you how to become the greatest apologist of all times for ever! Just send 17 easy installments of $99.95, and a pint and a half of your blood…

Honestly it really is that simple:
1). Read-a lot
2). Study-a WHOLE LOT
3). Pray-a WHOLE LOT MORE
 
The example that Jesus set works well. Answer a question with a question. “What proof do you have that He DOESN’T exist?” “What type of proof WOULD persuade you?”
You could spend years answering the neverending volley of questions that can be thrown at you. Remember that you aren’t going to force a seed to grow, and you may not even get to plant it. The first things to happen are worms turning the soil before the ground is ever broken.
 
Layman_F said:
… Remember that you aren’t going to force a seed to grow, and you may not even get to plant it. The first things to happen are worms turning the soil before the ground is ever broken.
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Great statement! So many times I walk away dis-heartened because I feel like I didn’t even “plant a seed” with someone. But this is so important to remember…the next person to come along may do that…and what you did was simply prepare the soil…or even less…yet still a necessary step in the growth of a mature tree. 👍
 
Poof said:
You guys make skeptics look like potatoes. I can’t say the same for other forums I’ve been to. Atheists usually rule the casual non-religious and even a lot of religious forums. I know they’re wrong but I can’t do a thing. Fess up guys, what’s the secret?
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I think this is a case of confirmation bias… as far as I’ve seen, there are some forums where atheists rule and some where theists rule, and it tends (like all debates) not to be based as much on who has the best information but upon who can present it better.

Practice makes perfect. Also knowledge helps… whether defending the bible or attacking it, it’s necessary to know what the bible actually says, as well as common interpretations of it. Google is your friend, as nearly any fight to be had has already been had, and you can read the arguments from both sides before you even present your own. If you shoot down an opponent’s objections before they even present them, you’ll make a strong case.

But this is all just my own personal observation, not universal law. Take what seems useful, if any of it is.
 
catholicgamer said:
The best weapon against atheists is logic. It’s really that simple. In my experience with atheists so far, most of their arguments turn out to be extremely fallacious. It’s kind of fun to watch since they always claim to have the logic behind them…but all they really have are emotional responses and pet peeves with the Catholic Church (crusades, inquisition, abuse scandal, conspiracies, etc) that have nothing to do with arguments presented and especially nothing to do with Jesus himself (…you’ll note very quickly that they will NEVER touch the teachings of Jesus…). Watch out for the inevitable red herrings…
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Stereotypes are fun, aren’t they? They lead to prejudice, which is just liberating. It gives you the freedom to know people without actually getting to know them.

I’ve touched on the teachings of Jesus, in this forum and outside of it. No entire group can be summed up as a whole, especially one without a set of guidelines. You wouldn’t like Catholics to be put in a box like this, so please don’t do it to non-Catholics.
 
The professional apologists employed by Catholic Answers have a variety of backgrounds but most hold advanced degrees in philosophy, theology, scripture, etc. They typically have at least a Bachelor’s degree in a religious field and many have Master’s and Doctorates. Karl Keating has a JD. The priests, of course, have seminary training and advanced degrees as well. Some hold degrees from Protestant institutions and many were Protestant pastors before converting.

Those of us who post here are not employed by CA. We are a mixed bag with varying histories, strengths, levels of education, and ages.

People posting here range from those with no formal Church training (but lots of reading and self-study) to those who do hold degrees in philosophy, theolgoy, religious studies, etc. Some are priests and deacons and some are canon lawyers. Some have been through diocesan formation programs for lay leaders, some have degrees in catechetical studies.

There isn’t one path to successful apologetics, but study and patiences are two essential ingredients.
 
Thanks ahs.

catholicgamer;8749672especially nothing to do with Jesus himself (…you’ll note very quickly that they will NEVER touch the teachings of Jesus [/QUOTE said:
As a former atheist, why would anyone refute the moral teachings of Jesus? By there being no God, Jesus’ religious teachings were a moot point. “Fry the bigger fish” was my method.
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catholicgamer said:
The best weapon against atheists is logic. It’s really that simple. In my experience with atheists so far, most of their arguments turn out to be extremely fallacious. It’s kind of fun to watch since they always claim to have the logic behind them…but all they really have are emotional responses and pet peeves with the Catholic Church (crusades, inquisition, abuse scandal, conspiracies, etc) that have nothing to do with arguments presented and especially nothing to do with Jesus himself (…you’ll note very quickly that they will NEVER touch the teachings of Jesus…). Watch out for the inevitable red herrings.

Quite honestly, all they really have is the Argument from Evil to work with, and even that argument has been abandoned by scholarship…so, study that argument and how to refute it. A really great resource are these two Philosophers: Peter Kreeft (Catholic, peterkreeft.com) and William Lane Craig (Protestant, reasonablefaith.org). Craig is really good and has almost every argument that we have on our side of the fence…just be cautious of his Protestant views which have mostly to do with Justification, Faith alone, etc.

Good luck.
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Wow, you hit a lot of points there. I’ve been, well most of the time, very civil when replying to atheists but they always seem to get emotional and ticked off without be doing anything.

Also, can I still defend myself well without knowing scripture? If they tell me to refute controversial scriptures by using then I can’t do a thing. It’s not that I’ve never heard of these scriptures, I’ve been very familiar with critics going around with bible contradictions and old testament horrors but I’ve always relied on others to tackle that for me. Sometimes, scripture can be hard to comprehend and I can’t deal with translation as you guys. Same goes for Protestants, if they tell me to use scripture to support my stance, I can’t. I know the bible, its parables, stories and a good deal about the covenant (thanks Scott Hahn), but I never took enough time to dwell into scripture related apologetics or read the bible on my own free time. The mass isn’t enough, nor are weekly gospel reflections in class.

How will my lack of knowledge in scripture-apologetics affect me? As for your comment on Philosophy, we also started Philosophy Antropology this year. I tried getting Peter Kreeft’s book “Catholic Apologetic Handbook” or something across those lines and it contains a lot of Philosophical stuff. Problem is, the matter is a little bit to heavy for me. Do you know anything for a Sophomore high school student?
 
1ke said:
The professional apologists employed by Catholic Answers have a variety of backgrounds but most hold advanced degrees in philosophy, theology, scripture, etc. They typically have at least a Bachelor’s degree in a religious field and many have Master’s and Doctorates. Karl Keating has a JD. The priests, of course, have seminary training and advanced degrees as well. Some hold degrees from Protestant institutions and many were Protestant pastors before converting.

Those of us who post here are not employed by CA. We are a mixed bag with varying histories, strengths, levels of education, and ages.

People posting here range from those with no formal Church training (but lots of reading and self-study) to those who do hold degrees in philosophy, theolgoy, religious studies, etc. Some are priests and deacons and some are canon lawyers. Some have been through diocesan formation programs for lay leaders, some have degrees in catechetical studies.

There isn’t one path to successful apologetics, but study and patiences are two essential ingredients.
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I know, not everyone here is great. There are a lot of people who come here just to learn about their faith and brush up on their apologetics, myself included. But you guys have impressed me so much that you can say I have developed a fanboy mentality. I talk about you to almost skeptic I talk with, guilty as charged :o. I should stop probably…but still, my love for CAF is not an understatement. I had a spiritual journey awhile back and I was NO WHERE close to being this religious last year. I had my struggles but you guys solidified my faith and I am so greatful for that. I’ve seen countless debates and I have seen several CAF members who are simply amazing! There arguments were solid and I have seen them stand up to different claims from different non-believers. My infatuation for you guys has a basis and a big one at that. It showed me that you don’t need to be a Scott Hahn, Robert Sunnegis or Peter Kreeft to be awesome, all it takes is a person with the desire and passion to learn about his faith in all angles. - Poof
 
Poof said:
Wow, you hit a lot of points there. I’ve been, well most of the time, very civil when replying to atheists but they always seem to get emotional and ticked off without be doing anything.

Also, can I still defend myself well without knowing scripture? If they tell me to refute controversial scriptures by using then I can’t do a thing. It’s not that I’ve never heard of these scriptures, I’ve been very familiar with critics going around with bible contradictions and old testament horrors but I’ve always relied on others to tackle that for me. Sometimes, scripture can be hard to comprehend and I can’t deal with translation as you guys. Same goes for Protestants, if they tell me to use scripture to support my stance, I can’t. I know the bible, its parables, stories and a good deal about the covenant (thanks Scott Hahn), but I never took enough time to dwell into scripture related apologetics or read the bible on my own free time. The mass isn’t enough, nor are weekly gospel reflections in class.

How will my lack of knowledge in scripture-apologetics affect me? As for your comment on Philosophy, we also started Philosophy Antropology this year. I tried getting Peter Kreeft’s book “Catholic Apologetic Handbook” or something across those lines and it contains a lot of Philosophical stuff. Problem is, the matter is a little bit to heavy for me. Do you know anything for a Sophomore high school student?
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Yeah, you’ll hit a lot of emotion when debating them…because usually they’ve been hurt by some person who said they were religious. At that point, they start looking for everything that supports that emotional outlook…notice what they get hung up on, abuse scandals, crusades…all complex issues, but there will be emotion behind it all. REALLY pay attention to these cases and learn to recognize them because you need to get through the anger before anything else sticks. The anger isn’t a wrong reaction, it’s human, but they will hide it behind what they call logic and reason…but the anger always comes to the surface by the use of logical fallacies.

As for scriptures…you need to know them. If they know them better than you, then there is a problem. For Atheists, again look for the passages that cause the most emotional response, like God seemingly ordering the killing of others, or the repressing of civil rights of minority groups (…like there was such a thing back then…)…things like that. Those passages have very good defense once you understand historical context and revelation history. For Protestants, stuff like faith vs works, justification. In both cases, there are resources here and other places for these answers.

All of these objections already have answers to them. Atheists aren’t really saying anything new, most are honestly looking for the answer to the question…of course, some are just trying to trip you up. Remember, you have 2000 years of reference material to use…so there is no objection that has not already been answered, usually centuries ago.

Even if you don’t know the answer, it at least gives you a research project to start, and that is when you really start to learn and internalize these tougher subjects. In those cases, just say “I don’t know. Let me get back to you”. You’ll find that your faith will get deeper and more complex because of how deep and complex the answers get 🙂
 
My area of interest is too narrow for me to even think of becoming a CAF-level apologist. Nonetheless, from my personal observation of CAF, it is very important to keep in mind and also share this universal, objective, basic truth – “The human person is worthy of profound respect.” 🙂

Blessings,
granny

“The shepherds sing; and shall I silent be?”
from the poem “Christmas” by George Herbert
 
One tome that is far too overlooked is Origen’s “Contra Celsus”. Read that one - one of the most brilliant minds in all of Christendom demolishing an Epicurean very much in line with today’s current objections against Christianity.
 
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