How to best assist when the priest and choir aren't co-ordinated?

[The_Reginator]

I’m looking for a bit of helpful advice in better participating in the Latin Mass.

I’ve been away from the E.F. for almost a decade. I’ve had a few opportunities to assist recently. Language is not an issue, even thought the only Latin I know is that which I’ve picked up at Mass (and noticing that some words are similar to French.)

My problem is the way that the priest seems to celebrate at his own pace while the choir proceeds at another.

I noticed this when I first attended during the Gloria – in the middle of singing of the Gloria we all sat down! I looked up from my Missal and saw that the priest was finished and we followed his actions.

**Why is it that the celebrant and the choir aren’t co-ordinated? **

Should we not bother trying to sing – simply follow along in our Missals and follow the celebrants actions?

A bit of background:
I grew up an Anglican.
I attended an O.F. Mass from 1982 - 1996 (when I converted). I entered the Church at an FSSP parish. Then in 2000 I had to stop travelling to Mass due to health reasons – I’ve been back to my local O.F. parish ever since.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\I noticed this when I first attended during the Gloria – in the middle of singing of the Gloria we all sat down! I looked up from my Missal and saw that the priest was finished and we followed his actions.\

**In all the rubrics of the Roman Rite up through 1962, after the Priest intones the Gloria and Credo, he then continues reciting them in a low voice while the choir sings them. When he finishes, he returns to his seat at the sedilia (aka presbytery) while the choir/people continue singing.

You will also notice that at a Missa Solmenis with Deacon and Subdeacon, the Priest reads the Epistle and Gospel from the missal at the altar while they are chanted by the appropriate ministers. He also would read the Introit, Gradual, Offertory, and Communion, quietly, though they were also being chanted by the Choir.

Obviously, it takes longer to chant or sing something than to simply recite it.

All these practices gave the impression that a Solemn Mass and Sung Mass were merely masses with music added as something special, rather than being the norm, and a Missa Privata being a mass “deprived” of its ceremonies (hence the name) was seen as the rule and not the exception (as it supposedly really was).

This was changed in the mid '60’s before the introduction of the Pauline Missal (aka Ordinary Form) such that the Priest did NOT have to silently say those texts and hymns sung or chanted by the Choir or another minister.

BTW–I’ve used the terms Choir, People, and Congregation interchangably.**

 

[Joe_Kelley]

In the better forms the priest waited for the choir to finish. I went to too many where the the priest intoned the “Gloria” and then went on while the choir did the “Gloria”. They were supposed to be finished in time for him to do the Gospel in English and the sermon.

Then he intoned the “Credo” and went on. The choir was supposed to finish in time[One pastor allowed us one minute for the “Credo”, and I mean 60 seconds, not 61] for the “Sanctus”. They were supposed to finish the first part, wait for the Consecration, and do the second part, Bendictus, and be done in time for the “Amen.”

They then did the “Our Father” finishing in time for the “Agnus Dei.”

 

[AJV]

In the better forms the priest waited for the choir to finish. I went to too many where the the priest intoned the “Gloria” and then went on while the choir did the “Gloria”. They were supposed to be finished in time for him to do the Gospel in English and the sermon.

Then he intoned the “Credo” and went on. The choir was supposed to finish in time[One pastor allowed us one minute for the “Credo”, and I mean 60 seconds, not 61] for the “Sanctus”. They were supposed to finish the first part, wait for the Consecration, and do the second part, Bendictus, and be done in time for the “Amen.”

They then did the “Our Father” finishing in time for the “Agnus Dei.”

For certain things e.g. the Gloria, the priest is obligated to wait for the choir to finish.
P.S. That is a loooong “Sed libera nos”

 

[Bluegoat]

I wonder, have the choir and priest ever got together to work this out? At the Anglican Church I attend there is a lot more done by the choir than in many others, and the choir director often has to go over how it works in detail with a new or visiting priest, and the opposite could also be the case. Sometimes a simple walk through of such things can help immensely so everyone can see what will happen, or maybe notes in the choirs books.

 

[RoryMcKenzie56]

Hi The Reginator,

It is by design that the priest is ahead of the choir at High Mass. At our parish, we have been taught, and it seems to make sense, that the congregation should follow the choir. In fact, when the entire choir sings, it is as a help to the entire congregation who are to join in.

You raise a good question about assisting. Do you try to follow what the priest is doing and saying while at the same time there is a schola singing a long introit or offertory, or the choir is singing the Kyrie? I have never heard anybody say that it is wrong to try to follow rigorously to the prayers of the priest during High Mass, but in my opinion, it HAS to be the intent of the Church that the people should follow along with the choir or schola. Otherwise, what would they be, but a distraction?

I believe the Church intends for us to absorb the music and the meaning of the words of the High Mass, while permitting the priest to say the prayers of the missal alone. The Church has never to my knowledge disapproved of the faithful assisting at Mass by means different from following along strictly with the prayers said by the priest. I have an old prayer book which explains a method for assisting at Mass by praying the Rosary, and I know this was at one time a common custom. Until I hear a word saying otherwise, I think the Church expects the faithful to conform to the pace of the music (which skips over some things) and meaning of the words chosen to be sung out loud. It seems unreasonable to have all this going on if we are supposed to be concentrating on what is being said in secret by the priest.

Rory

 

[bpbasilphx]

\Then he intoned the “Credo” and went on. The choir was supposed to finish in time[One pastor allowed us one minute for the “Credo”, and I mean 60 seconds, not 61] for the “Sanctus”. They were supposed to finish the first part, wait for the Consecration, and do the second part, Bendictus, and be done in time for the “Amen.”\

It was either Pope Pius X or XII who suppressed this practice, and directed that Sanctus and Benedictus were to be sung without break.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

\Then he intoned the “Credo” and went on. The choir was supposed to finish in time[One pastor allowed us one minute for the “Credo”, and I mean 60 seconds, not 61] for the “Sanctus”. They were supposed to finish the first part, wait for the Consecration, and do the second part, Bendictus, and be done in time for the “Amen.”\

It was either Pope Pius X or XII who suppressed this practice, and directed that Sanctus and Benedictus were to be sung without break.

Well both were still being done in the 60’s. My wife was a choir director at the time, and that was the pastor’s direction.

 

[The_Reginator]

Hi The Reginator,

It is by design that the priest is ahead of the choir at High Mass. At our parish, we have been taught, and it seems to make sense, that the congregation should follow the choir. In fact, when the entire choir sings, it is as a help to the entire congregation who are to join in.

I believe the Church intends for us to absorb the music and the meaning of the words of the High Mass, while permitting the priest to say the prayers of the missal alone.

Rory

That helps.
Unfortunately my car is telling my that I’m going to be going to the local N.O. Mass for the next little while. (No more Holy Water, kneeling to receive, receiving on the tongue, Gregorian chant,…)

 

[AJV]

\Then he intoned the “Credo” and went on. The choir was supposed to finish in time[One pastor allowed us one minute for the “Credo”, and I mean 60 seconds, not 61] for the “Sanctus”. They were supposed to finish the first part, wait for the Consecration, and do the second part, Bendictus, and be done in time for the “Amen.”\

It was either Pope Pius X or XII who suppressed this practice, and directed that Sanctus and Benedictus were to be sung without break.

Pius X implicitly through the rubrics of the new Gradual. However, as confirmed by private responses and later publicly in De Musica Sacra (1958) this applied to chant, and lengthy polyphonic settings could still be separated.

 

[bpbasilphx]

Pius X implicitly through the rubrics of the new Gradual. However, as confirmed by private responses and later publicly in De Musica Sacra (1958) this applied to chant, and lengthy polyphonic settings could still be separated.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Claire_from_DE]

Hi The Reginator,

It is by design that the priest is ahead of the choir at High Mass. At our parish, we have been taught, and it seems to make sense, that the congregation should follow the choir. In fact, when the entire choir sings, it is as a help to the entire congregation who are to join in.

You raise a good question about assisting. Do you try to follow what the priest is doing and saying while at the same time there is a schola singing a long introit or offertory, or the choir is singing the Kyrie? I have never heard anybody say that it is wrong to try to follow rigorously to the prayers of the priest during High Mass, but in my opinion, it HAS to be the intent of the Church that the people should follow along with the choir or schola. Otherwise, what would they be, but a distraction?

I believe the Church intends for us to absorb the music and the meaning of the words of the High Mass, while permitting the priest to say the prayers of the missal alone. The Church has never to my knowledge disapproved of the faithful assisting at Mass by means different from following along strictly with the prayers said by the priest. I have an old prayer book which explains a method for assisting at Mass by praying the Rosary, and I know this was at one time a common custom. Until I hear a word saying otherwise, I think the Church expects the faithful to conform to the pace of the music (which skips over some things) and meaning of the words chosen to be sung out loud. It seems unreasonable to have all this going on if we are supposed to be concentrating on what is being said in secret by the priest.

Rory

I grew up in the '50’s and we used the St. Joseph Missal (daily and/or Sunday) to follow the priest. Even the thin picture missal used at the children’s mass showed the posture of the priest and the prayers he was saying. We sometimes chanted the gloria, credo, kyrie, and agnus dei but these were at the proper times and I don’t remember the priest continuing on without us. We did concentrate on what the priest was saying. Although it was inaudible, it wasn’t ‘in secret’. When the priest moved to one side of the altar we read the epistle that he was reading in Latin. When he moved to the other side we read the gospel.

Our ordinary mass was the low mass. Of six masses on a Sunday, only one was a high mass with choir and it wasn’t very well attended. I suppose many Catholics did indeed view the music of the high mass as a distraction.

I admit that I’m not a musical person. But I wonder if this concentration on the music wasn’t an organic development but an accretion that eventually obscured what was going on at the altar. Now I will run and clutch the altar cloth and claim sanctuary before I’m beaten senseless by the choir.