How to bring Science and Religion closer together?

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I agree with Heinlein that materialism is the least likely hypothesis. At the very least, for most, there is a profound sense that much more is going on, if they seriously consider existence. But religion itself, as I see it, has a too large of element of both unexamined habitual momentum in degrees and kinds, and a sort of materialism in its inflexibility, particularly in my experience, with mysticism and altered states of awareness–even if they might come from devotional practices. That was for me the camels’ last straw at one point, until the resolution I now have. And that is anathema to most religionists as well, but it is congruous with my experience and study, even with a re-interpretation of Christianity. But it is the only explanation that I have found that accounts equally for religion and science, and the too-fast-for-chance advancement of life forms on this planet. I also find that it encompasses the nature and possibility of other forms “out there” both on worlds and other dimensions, something I also have some experience with. I don’t talk too much about it here because it seems to upset folks. I don’t mind, but except in very few cases it turns into “Oh, poor dear, you will see your error if you but have faith.” That no longer is sufficient form me, having done some four+ decades of homework on this vital subject.

Oh well, I say if asked, otherwise I make sideways comments, lol!
 
You are not making any sense. Science is interested in finding solutions. The truth you are talking about has little to do with the Bible.

I have studied the history of technological progress for years. Just because we can make devices today we could not make 10 years ago has nothing to do with the Bible. Nothing.
Are you talking about science or technology? One is about gaining knowledge of the natural word and the other about using that knowledge to make things. MP3 players have nothing to do with the Bible, but certain folk think that the Big Bang theory, etc. does.
The evidence you are talking about is currently the primary weapon of the anti-theist. If you are sincere, I suggest you provide clear, unambiguous consequences for ignoring this evidence. I can see none.
I’ll send you a PM (it touches on a banned topic and I don’t want to take my chances). 🙂
 
Are you talking about science or technology? One is about gaining knowledge of the natural word and the other about using that knowledge to make things. MP3 players have nothing to do with the Bible, but certain folk think that the Big Bang theory, etc. does.

I’ll send you a PM (it touches on a banned topic and I don’t want to take my chances). 🙂
Inocente:
The moderator is solely interested in smooth-running threads within which there are no insults to the, or any other, person, or the other person’s religion, or, any other religion. They don’t expect you to walk on egg shells while discussing philosophy. If it gets close to the edge, either someone will mention it, or the mod will. Ask yourself how you would expect to be treated and that’s how they expect you to treat others - even if they mistreat you. 🙂

Also, the mod is not interested in seeing long running diatribes of you said-he said, yes-it-is, no-it’s-not, etc., in a thread. These are, after all, philosophy threads, not children’s games. Now, please do not take any of this personally. You seem to have been a perfect gentleman so far - unless you’re a lady. 😃

God bless you,
jd
 
Inocente:
The moderator is solely interested in smooth-running threads within which there are no insults to the, or any other, person, or the other person’s religion, or, any other religion.
It was an argument posted on a recent thread that I can no longer find, so I concluded that the mod removed the thread, which was the right thing to do.
Also, the mod is not interested in seeing long running diatribes of you said-he said, yes-it-is, no-it’s-not, etc., in a thread.
Agreed. Rather than use up a lot of posts to find out we’re actually on the same page, I chose a PM. Hopefully, edwest will agree and then we’re done and dusted on that one. I really wouldn’t want to see the argument posted here, but suffice to say it was about a fundamentalist minority in one religion seeking to alter a basic teaching of that religion to justify ignoring scientific evidence.

Otherwise, thanks for your encouraging remarks (by the way, my name would end in an ‘a’ if I was of the female persuasion - that’s a popular girl’s name here.). 🙂
Religionists, as a general rule, don’t have very many problems, if any, with scientists. What would be incredible would be a gathering of both to work together to try to come closer to answers. But, you’ve seen Dawkins on the telly
I think of Dawkins as the high priest of a fundamentalist religion invented by himself. His arguments preach to his choir, I’ve read a couple of his books and they did nothing for me.

The majority of people don’t seem to find any conflict between science and religion other than that manufactured by the fundamentalists on both sides. Stephen Hawking is also at it again, also because he needs to sell a new book.
 
Science has no particular value in regard to the Bible. By attempting to limit God to purely natural causes in a few specific areas, God ceases to Be God. He becomes “the God who left evidence behind, or not” as opposed to the God who raised the dead, gave sight to the blind and cleansed the lepers. What did Paul tell the people? If Christ is not risen then your faith is in vain. Ye are still in your sins.

Got that? If Jesus did not actually rise from the dead, there’s no point to your faith - you’ve got nothing.

But no. The same cycle continues, over and over and over again. There’s no evidence for this or that, therefore, it didn’t happen like it said in the Bible. God can perform miracles without science or technology. Remember? But, apparently, non-scientists post here to tell Catholics what they “think” really happened as opposed to reading what the Bible actually tells us.

No peer reviewed, scientific papers just pure guesswork.

God bless,
Ed
 
I remember in all my catechism classes many of the kids questioned how this or that was possible. They/I said it just didn’t make sense, and certainly there was nothing in our lives that indicated it could. So the whole premise of invoking faith had to do with relegating it to the past. OK, there were some modern saints and miracles, but even that was hard for most of us to swallow.

Indeed, the dynamic of goodness by association and agreement pretty much had sway despite some reasonable questions form the kids. All the teachers and parents and clergy were bigger and older than us. The line was “this is your religion; believe it; if you don’t you will hurt God who made you and you will fry in hell because you did bad things.” Simplistic, maybe, but that is what we got from it. So one doesn’t have to be a scientist or atheist to question dogma or morals. I mean, here we are on these fora.

We had no such trouble from math and science classes. It was pretty clear that math worked and physical laws made much quite predictable. That made sense and was verified in everyday life. If we did math, there was a verifiable answer. If we prayed, what did or didn’t happen was an answer if it was good, and and if it was vague of bad, it was still an answer but had to have the ingredient of faith. It was like the profs at the blackboard with a long equation on the board, the last term of which before the = was [and then a miracle happens]. That doesn’t wash in science and doesn’t need to. It isn’t about the miracle, though it can include the feeling of miracle on investigation. But faith isn’t part of that kind of equation.

Science just talks about what and how things work as elements of Creation as far as we can analyze and predict. Science, in order to work, has to be an abstraction. It isn’t poetry or music, either, or the dramatic arts. It is the description of laws and effects as are observable and consistent. Taken as a discipline, one can choose to say “this is exemplification of the Glory and Wonder of God” or they can say “this is how this works in this instance.” That doesn’t necessarily detract from it being God’s work.

For my part, materialism is the least likely hypothesis. But I will not be bringing my faith into statistical analysis or mixing compounds. Not even into petitionary wishes. Prayer is for changing me, not God. And actually, despite my conviction that God IS, I consider faith a temporary stage of progress, and IMHO it ought to be generally known that that is the case. Otherwise, dear Ed, do we choose Muslim science (where a lot of it came from) or Indian science (likewise) Chinese science (ditto) Catholic science (that too) or what? Shall we do Cargo Cult science? My car works whether my pastor is driving it or my weird atheist friend. It doesn’t matter who plugs the blender into the wall, it will work if the juice is on. If I’m thirsty, I don’t quiz the person who gives it to me as to their faith. Much less if I am in trouble and I need a hand.

There is an underlying Reality that precedes religion and science. If we are to meet anywhere on this, it will be there. And that place is the province neither of faith nor analysis. I’m not going to say for you to keep your god out of science. I don’t think you can. And it is right to attribute existence to the Deity. But the procedures of faith and the scientific method have two provinces of investigation. One is the inner private and the other is the outer shared. And if a group who has a similar interior tradition wishes to get together, that is just great. But their particular view has no place in a lab, nor does it need to, nor is it diminished if it doesn’t.
 
“faith a temporary stage of progress”? What does that mean?

God is the foundational concept. Jesus Christ is not the Buddha, or Krishna or Mohammed.

If anyone reading this is a Catholic then they should understand that God is in charge.

I have no problem with things that work - no matter who operates them. I have no problem with gravity which I can test daily. OK? What I have a problem with is science - and self-proclaimed spokesmen for science - saying anything about miracles. How is a person elevated to sainthood - Today? Two miracles which include a detailed investigation by doctors and scientists. You’re not going to read about that in the New York Times or Wired or your favorite web site. So and so became a saint today. Really? How does that work? Look up the Congregation for Saints’ Causes.

Technology means nothing. For what shall it profit a man to gain the entire world but lose his soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

I have an almost obsessive desire to study and understand science. It doesn’t matter on your last day on earth. God will not ask you if you understood quantum mechanics or the latest version of string theory.

There are foundational truths that do not change. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Today, some people are hypnotized by change. It is their drug of choice. In somes cases, it is their god. Man will bring an end to (fill in the blank).

Drunk with a self-centered and overblown opinion of himself, man becomes the measure of all things. God? Pfft. Some people appear to need God but it’s time to move past that. Uh huh.

“I think that science fiction, even the corniest of it, no matter how badly it’s written, has a distinct therapeutic value because all of it has as its primary postulate that the world does change.” Robert Heinlein, July, 1941, at the Third Annual World Science Fiction Convention.

Mr. Heinlein is wrong. The world does not change. Men made a few devices to ease their labor, and created a communications system that was first advertised as “helping to bring the world together” but it did no such thing.

The same desires, the same sins, are repeated century after century after century. Today, only the props are different.

God bless,
Ed
 
I recommend reading through the questions/answers from the “Biologos Foundation” (biologos.org) for good “reconciliation” between science and religion. Science and religion have the same aims, yet each tries to define truth by different means. Here’s a quick but good example from the Biologos website (specifically from this URL: biologos.org/questions/scientific-and-scriptural-truth/ ):
Borrowing an example from the Rev. John Polkinghorne, there is more than one answer to the question of why the water in a tea kettle boils.1 The scientific answer might be because the burning gas heats the water.2 Another acceptable, though nonscientific, answer could be that the water is boiling because I want to make a cup of tea.3 Both of these answers are true, and both accurately describe the boiling water from different perspectives. The kinds of answers found in the scriptures are generally nonscientific but are always true.
 
I recommend reading through the questions/answers from the “Biologos Foundation” (biologos.org) for good “reconciliation” between science and religion. Science and religion have the same aims, yet each tries to define truth by different means. Here’s a quick but good example from the Biologos website (specifically from this URL: biologos.org/questions/scientific-and-scriptural-truth/ ):
Just a brief note on BioLogos the organization with a website. One of their positions denies Catholic doctrine regarding Adam and Eve. “Although BioLogos takes a firm stand on the fact that Adam and Eve could not have been the sole biological progenitors of all humans…”

Out of respect for the current ban, I will not comment further.
 
One way to bring religion and science “closer” together is to realize that they both operate in the common subject/object mode of awareness. While they are informed and supported by the intuitive or non-discursive portion of the mind, they rarely acknowledge the “ghost in the machine.” Religion passes it off as “soul” and mystical experience while science has no decisive way to apply the scientific method to experiences of pure awareness/Consciousness save to verify that something is happening beyond its ability to analyze, so relegates insight experiences to the category of anecdote. Yet both are fundamentally driven by the ability of the mind to go to what appears to the rational mind to be a blank space and come back with useful material.

Humans operate in two modes of awareness relative to what is called being “awake.” Both of these, by one way of reckoning, still constitute sleep, and that sleep is the ordinary experience of most human beings on a day to day basis. But why is it called "sleep,’ when it is perfectly obvious that there is a difference between the time we spend sawing logs in bed at night and when we go about our sometimes adrenaline charged day? Well, the adrenaline charge is one way of getting to the point. There is another and its sub-categories, but lets start with the chemical way first, as it has been studied, though it’s significance may not have been correctly assessed.

There is something that happens to athletes, musicians, and many people who do things very intently and with great focus. Even lovers and meditators experience it. It is called everything from “being in the zone” to “flowing” to “creative reverie.” It happens to some regularly, to others often, to some once, and to many never.

What that state is can be called a lessening of the barrier between the ordinary mind we use and the intuitive mind, or the non-discursive mind. In fact, we can call the aspects of the human awareness “discursive” and “non-discursive.” Or “dianoetic” and “non-dianoetic.” Most simply, though, we can say “subject/object” and “intuitive.” We are, most of us, almost constantly in the subject/object, or s/o mode. That means that we perceive ourselves as a discreet or autonomous identity who is aware of the world around them. We are creatures who use senses to navigate the environment we live in.

Now we know, or were told and believe, (important distinction) that we are more than “meat-bots.” We have, we are told, a soul. And we use as a “proof” for this that we are self aware. Our awareness is self reflexive. It doesn’t just receive, and we don’t just react instinctually. There is a “ghost in the machine.” And most of us are not materialists who believe that the brain is just an organ that excretes thoughts, though it does excrete chemicals according to our perceptions. This is further proof of our uniqueness. While say most animals, with the exception of trained ones, might behave almost identically in any situation, we, though having that tendency, can respond uniquely and singularly according to the level and compass of our awareness.

The one area of awareness we seem to habitually neglect to a large or very large extent is the study of that quality and ability of self awareness. We tend to take it for granted and rarely go beyond simply noticing it at times. And sometimes we have those “peak” experiences where we are in the “zone” and think that that is just a rare happening. But there is more to this mode than meets the superficial glance. While the peak experience is a hint of another mode of awareness, there is a further refinement that can happen when the discursive mind is somehow shut off and only the non-discursive is operating. If you go
here you can get an idea of what I mean.

Now in that example the state was achieved by trauma. But there are other ways, and ways that do not include any relative contents. It is in those states that religious experience can and does happen. It is in those states of pure awareness with no object that we can com the closest to experiencing soul, bliss, and even a glimpse of the Beatific Vision. In any case, when the two modes of awareness can be harmoniously integrated as a constant state, that person is deemed Awake. That of course, is called different things in different traditions, and here is where your question can be answered.

Because we grow up in a certain way and habitually appreciate the world in certain terms, and those terms necessarily apply in the s/o state of relationship to the world, we find on returning to that state that “words can’t describe such glory” or whatever. Yet we try to describe it. What do we have to do that with? We have the mind set we acquired before our experience of awareness in its purity. So in the same way as people who have near death experiences name the Presence they “meet” during that incident according to their religious convictions or lack of them, we tend to describe the experience we had in terms of our faith or lack of it.

Very rarely does one see so clearly or have an experience so profound that it is recognized as archetypal and the need to find new language becomes an imperative. This may happen even in the cases of those who have no exposure to other religions or philosophies. They only have the language of their faith to express what is in fact an experience that transcends the forms of religion.

(continued)
 
(continuation)

And that is what most people of faith or science don’t understand due to lack of this extraordinary type of experience. Religion, as such is an event within the discursive mind, as is science. God, and what constitutes you being in THAT image and likeness, is approachable only through the non-discursive mind as are the higher realms of scientific intuition. And that is why there are spontaneous realizations, awakenings, or conversions, insights, “ah-ha’s,” whatever you wish to call them, of a certain category. Naturally, they are spoken of in the terms most familiar to the mind that now feels impelled to describe what is beyond description mystically, or in scientific terms if that was the quale of inquiry.

So it happens that if a question is held with great intensity, as a koan, an “image” of God, or a scientific question, an answer seems to arrive from nowhere: the arrival of the unexpected. And the history of science is replete with such incidents, eg the discovery of the benzine ring. So in a way we can say that what is asked of the Invisible is answered in kind, impartially, and interpreted through the language of the question. That is why, perhaps scientific questions often precipitate meaningful repeatable dynamics, while religous questions, using far less universal a language that mathematics, for instance, yield often less universal and more private responses.
 
You know, I have watched and been a part of gatherings of scientists and religionists who walked along the aisles, elbow to elbow, without a single shout or evil glance. I was a science teacher. But, I didn’t have an agenda. Or, perhaps I was confident of my material and teaching ability, as were those teachers who taught religion.

We really need to unleash a horde of anti-moron-scientist-religionist spider hawks to sting them and bring them to their unborn! Still alive! Paralyzed! But, not blinded! And, save them at the last moment, whenever they’ve repented their prideful ways!

Well, it might work? 😦

God bless,
jd
No agenda? Really? And who does have an agenda in science?
Name names and be accountable for your loose statements.
 
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