How to combat liturgical abuse idea

[NorthTexan88]

I was driving today and got to thinking about people on CAF talking about liturgical abuse. Thank God I’ve never seen it first hand. But I was wondering, what if each diocese started a website…with the permission of the bishop…where they can report liturgical abuse. I think if it is to be stopped it is up to us to be more strict and affirmative. I have seen how people on here get upset bc of this, and this shouldn’t be the case. Any ideas?

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

You could do this, and it would be an interesting idea, but, as always, it will depend on the diligence of the bishop(s) of the diocese to enforce things. Sadly, there are quite a few bishops that are less than catholic in their beliefs and need prayers.

 

[jonbhorton]

I was driving today and got to thinking about people on CAF talking about liturgical abuse. Thank God I’ve never seen it first hand. But I was wondering, what if each diocese started a website…with the permission of the bishop…where they can report liturgical abuse. I think if it is to be stopped it is up to us to be more strict and affirmative. I have seen how people on here get upset bc of this, and this shouldn’t be the case. Any ideas?

In an era where the Roman Catholic Church is increasingly attacked, I don’t know that a public website for lodging complaints would do anymore than cause headaches and decrease efficiency.

What needs to happen is Bishops need to just enforce Church policy and doctrine on these things. If one notices an abuse, it should be brought up to the priest first, and with the knowledge/documents to back up the definition of the abuse. A public website just encourages dissent against one’s immediate shepherd. It would cause nothing good.

If the priest ignores the parishioner, follow the chain of command.

If people can’t just man up and talk to the priest with humility, respect, and concern for the Mass, I have no idea how they’re going to find the courage to proclaim Christ with a sword at their neck.

 

[FAB]

I was driving today and got to thinking about people on CAF talking about liturgical abuse. Thank God I’ve never seen it first hand. But I was wondering, what if each diocese started a website…with the permission of the bishop…where they can report liturgical abuse. I think if it is to be stopped it is up to us to be more strict and affirmative. I have seen how people on here get upset bc of this, and this shouldn’t be the case. Any ideas?

There are proper channels, report them to the ordinary. Correcting them is his responsibility, not a public forum.

 

[1ke]

I think this really shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of Bishop, priest, and laity.

 

[promethius]

What needs to happen is Bishops need to just enforce Church policy and doctrine on these things. If one notices an abuse, it should be brought up to the priest first, and with the knowledge/documents to back up the definition of the abuse. A public website just encourages dissent against one’s immediate shepherd. It would cause nothing good.

I heartily second this. There is a process in place for dealing with what we think MIGHT be abuses, and that process is given through Canon Law in light of the CCC’s teaching on rash judgement. Namely, that process is:

1. approach the priest to gain understanding
2. If the priest’s understanding is incorrect, offer CHARITABLE correction
3. If the priest refuses to listen, contact the bishop.
4. If the bishop’s answer is wholly insufficient, forward to the proper office of the Apostolic See.

I imagine there are plenty of bishops who are fed up of self-appointed “liturgical police” ragging on their priests left and right, particularly when the bishop asks the priest about the situation and the priest was totally unaware there was even a complaint. If I were a bishop, I know I would CERTAINLY be short with those who wrote me every time they saw their priest do something a little different without at least talking to the priest first.

Sadly, there are quite a few bishops that are less than catholic in their beliefs and need prayers.

Unfortunately, as the saying goes, where goes the bishop, so goes the church. I’m inclined to believe there are quite a few bishops who are plenty catholic, and quite a few laypersons who are zealots to the point of protestant disobedience to the church.

"For what is the bishop but one who beyond all others possesses all power and authority, so far as it is possible for a man to possess it, who according to his ability has been made an imitator of the Christ off God? "
~Ignatius, “To the Trallians”

“…the Church is founded upon the bishops, and every act of the Church is controlled by these same rulers”
~ Cyprian, “To the Lapsed”

“See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God.”
~ Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrneans

“For it is written, “God opposes the haughty.” And so we should be eager not to oppose the bishop, that we may be subject to God.”
~ Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

You could do this, and it would be an interesting idea, but, as always, it will depend on the diligence of the bishop(s) of the diocese to enforce things. Sadly, there are quite a few bishops that are less than catholic in their beliefs and need prayers.

I don’t think that’s entirely fair. I think we should consider that the bishop’s office often will have bigger fish to fry than EMHC approaching the altar before the Angus Dei…

 

[raaucoin]

I have a strong suspician that if the Great High Priest Himself celebrated the Eucharist, some folks would even report Him to the Bishop for Liturgical abuse.
A Catholic Priest allowing a Protestant minister to utter the words of Consecration–abuse.
A priest TOTALLY making up his own Eucharistic Prayer- abuse.
A priest who misspeaks, even habitually, or wears the wrong color vestments, or screws up the order of certain actions here and there–give me a break. Better yet- give them a break–AND A PRAYER! Just hope the young men on the Vocation forum considering priesthood don’t jump over here and get freaked out by the number of folks on this and other forums who are so ready to throw their Priests and bishops under the bus.
And a NEWS FLASH!! Our Dear Lord, even in the Blesssed Sacrament has big shoulders. I don’t think He really needs us to protect Him especially from His priests who love Him.

 

[Matthew_Holford]

I don’t think that’s entirely fair. I think we should consider that the bishop’s office often will have bigger fish to fry than EMHC approaching the altar before the Angus Dei…

I think we should report priests who think Angus is the new translation of Agnus.

 

[Brendan]

There are proper channels, report them to the ordinary. Correcting them is his responsibility, not a public forum.

I believe that the OP’s point was to create a mechanism to report them to the local Ordinary

 

[FAB]

I believe that the OP’s point was to create a mechanism to report them to the local Ordinary

We already have them: a telephone, e-mail or a letter.

 

[roadsend]

…
A Catholic Priest allowing a Protestant minister to utter the words of Consecration–abuse.
A priest TOTALLY making up his own Eucharistic Prayer- abuse.
…

I would respectfully disagree.

I would not classify either of the above as liturgical abuse since in either case no liturgy in fact would take place. They would in fact be attempted liturgies, an act of sacrilege.

I would define liturgical abuse as a deliberate failure to say the black and/or do the red in the missal
or
an introduction of words or actions which are not called for in the missal or specifically allowed by Church Law.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

I don’t think that’s entirely fair. I think we should consider that the bishop’s office often will have bigger fish to fry than EMHC approaching the altar before the Angus Dei…

I think it’s fair. I worry about the souls of these bishops who have lapsed in their faith. They will be held accountable for it even more so than a parish priest. It’s a dangerous position for them.

Unfortunately, as the saying goes, where goes the bishop, so goes the church. I’m inclined to believe there are quite a few bishops who are plenty catholic, and quite a few laypersons who are zealots to the point of protestant disobedience to the church.

I’m inclined to feel confused as to how this remotely even addressed what was said in my post.

 

[asia53]

Amen!

I worked in the Parish Office for a short time. 50% of Father’s appointments were with people, and their ideas of “liturgical abuse”.

Out all the appointments I witnessed, I can only think of one time----- an older gentleman (new to our parish) had a legitimate issue, using a paten for communion. The man had done his research. Father thanked the man in our parish bulletin, and announced we would resume using a paten. To be honest, no one knows why we stopped using a paten.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I think we should report priests who think Angus is the new translation of Agnus.

I must of have been smelling my lunch cooking…

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

I think it’s fair. I worry about the souls of these bishops who have lapsed in their faith. They will be held accountable for it even more so than a parish priest. It’s a dangerous position for them.

I don’t think many bishops have “lapsed in their faith.”

 

[YoungTradCath]

I don’t think this is a particularly good idea. There are already channels for it. And I realize priests may have habits, but if they have their faces glued to that Missal, it’s very hard to mess up, and I think most liturgical abuses, mistakes, whatever you are so inclined to call it in a particular case, would evaporate instantly.

 

[promethius]

I’m inclined to feel confused as to how this remotely even addressed what was said in my post.

Because to say there are “quite a few bishops who are less than catholic…” is a bit of a misapplication of the term catholic. The embodiment of the church’s authority rests in the bishops, so if it comes to some lay person asserting that a number of bishops are “less than catholic” I am instead inclined to believe that this is disobedience on the part of the author and not a statement of fact. If it were a statement of fact, then the primate would be engaging it with much more vigor and would be firing said bishops… unless you mean to assert that our pope is in cahoots and is also “less than catholic”.

We should all avoid the temptation to consider ourselves ubercatholics superior to the bishops. They are the rulers of the church, we are the subjects.

 

[TrueLight]

They are the rulers of the church, we are the subjects.

Hmm interesting. Let me think about that for a bit.

 

[DihydrogenOxide]

I don’t think many bishops have “lapsed in their faith.”

I do.

We should all avoid the temptation to consider ourselves ubercatholics superior to the bishops. They are the rulers of the church, we are the subjects.

I’m not saying that I am super perfect catholic. Thanks anyway for trying to “help” me to “examine my own conscience”. I’m afraid you are quite wrong. You must, however have your head in the sand if you think that every bishop is “ubercatholic” as you put it and without need for prayer. The Pope is very patient with his bishops. As to the last sentence, the term duh suffices. That’s exactly why I’m saying we need to pray for them. They will be held to a higher standard than we are. This is especially true to those who are less than faithful, whom I would never name.