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Aquinas11
Guest
Correct, I just mean God in general philosophical sense
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FiveLinden
Guest
Tell me more! I am willing to be convinced!I think that there are experiments that can be performed that would convince an atheist of the existence of a supernatural and great power able to perform miracles. However, these experiments would not prove the existence of the Christian God but they might convince many of its likelihood.
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FiveLinden
Guest
Atheists tend to think no entity can create something out of nothing. So replicating the creation of roses from nothing wouldn’t be something they’d be inclined to try, or impressed by finding out they could not. They thought that to start with.I would rather end up saying while handing him a rose “Make a rose like this, out of nothing.”
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Pattylt
Guest
Every agnostic/atheist biblical scholar is already at this point…as am I. The very problematic resurrection is the leap. We already have many, even today, very charismatic people that make a huge impression on a lot of people. I’m curious how you’d take the next step? Obviously, you’d have to have a belief in the supernatural first. I’m not sure you realize how big a leap is needed to go from atheism to a possible supernatural without actual verifiable evidence.True… it wouldn’t be used to convince anyone that Jesus is God. The research and test done would just prove a man named Jesus did exist and made a huge impression on a lot of people.
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Thom18
Guest
Such a person who says these things isn’t interested in any reasons that you have and they won’t care about Saint Aquinas’ Ways. Their heart is hardened and their mind is closed off, so the best thing you can do is pray for them. Beyond that, you need to live a life that proves to all that you believe. Reason won’t help such people, only prayer and a holy witness can do that.I was trying to convince an Athiest God exists. He was very deeply rooted in science, and says that, “Scientific evidence says exorcists, demons, and God are all mental illness or human invention.” I also tried using “Thomas Aquinas’s reasons why God exists” Mainly the one that something, must come from something else. Am I going about this wrong way?
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OKComputer
Guest
It’s really hard to convince someone to change their mind in a discussion/argument. All you can do is lead them down paths and hope for the best. What I would try to do is give them the book “Handbook for Christian Apologetics” by Peter Kreeft. In it, he outlines 20 arguments that might show the existence of a God. In the end though, I think it requires some degree of faith.
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Nahar
Guest
Of course they do. There is no such “ontological entity” as nothing. Nothing is merely a concept. The whole idea of “ex nihilo creation” is a grammatical and metaphysical nonsense.Atheists tend to think no entity can create something out of nothing.
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Sundiver
Guest
Capta(name removed by moderator)rudeman
5d
In reality the more you believe in God the more science supports God and the more you discover about the intricate creation of God. Faith opens doors to greater scientific discovery.
Father Robert Spitzer , S.J., Ph.D. talks about the connection between faith and physics. If you are a scientist you might be convinced when you hear his talks.
The Heartmath institute does a lot of research that indirectly proves a body soul connection.
5d
Brisingr:
“Scientific evidence says exorcists, demons, and God are all mental illness or human invention.”
I agree that some scientist have trouble seeing the truth.He’s delusional. There’s pretty much nothing you can do for someone who so firmly believes a lie like this.
In reality the more you believe in God the more science supports God and the more you discover about the intricate creation of God. Faith opens doors to greater scientific discovery.
Father Robert Spitzer , S.J., Ph.D. talks about the connection between faith and physics. If you are a scientist you might be convinced when you hear his talks.
The Heartmath institute does a lot of research that indirectly proves a body soul connection.
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www.heartmath.org
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Nahar
Guest
I wonder if you are aware how incredibly insulting this is?Their heart is hardened and their mind is closed off
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QwertyGirl
Guest
He says these things quite often.
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Sundiver
Guest
Nahar
1h
Just out of curiosity, are you an atheist?
How would you describe some atheists who can’t believe in God? What is stopping them?
I have friends who are atheists but, I can’t fathom why they don’t believe. What would you say about that?
1h
Thom18:
Their heart is hardened and their mind is closed off
I wouldn’t say their hearts are hardened. Most of them love others in a similar way as any other person who does believe in God.I wonder if you are aware how incredibly insulting this is?
Just out of curiosity, are you an atheist?
How would you describe some atheists who can’t believe in God? What is stopping them?
I have friends who are atheists but, I can’t fathom why they don’t believe. What would you say about that?
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Nahar
Guest
That does not diminish the insulting character of the words. The reference to “hardened heart” is merely ridiculous, but the “closed mind” is extremely insulting.He says these things quite often.
As a matter of fact, it would be very easy to convince any materialist/atheist (no capitalization needed) about the existence of something supernatural with presenting some physical phenomenon which occurs in violation of the established physical laws of nature. And I am talking about the real laws of nature, like the conservation laws, and the law about the speed of light in vacuum, or the absolute zero. No reference to regrowing legs would suffice, after all there are animals with such capabilities, not to mention the vegetation.
For example having the planets Jupiter and Saturn “trading places” at the result of some supplication. Millions of such examples would be sufficient.
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Nahar
Guest
Yes. I used to be a believer, when I was young.Just out of curiosity, are you an atheist?
It is all individual. There is no common denominator. As for myself, the answer is simple. I do not believe in some faceless, deistic first cause or sustaining cause or any other concept of Aquinas, because they are all founded on some incorrect metaphysical underpinning. These kinds of “gods of philosophers” are metaphysically incorrect.How would you describe some atheists who can’t believe in God? What is stopping them?
I have friends who are atheists but, I can’t fathom why they don’t believe. What would you say about that?
On the other hand, I don’t believe in the God of the Bible, for exactly the same reason that you do not believe in married bachelors. The alleged attributes of the Christian God are partially nonsensical, partially contradictory and some are contradicted by the physical reality.
We could have a conversation if you are interested. But one thing is certain. I did not lose my faith due to some mistreatment by the members of the clergy. The arguments lost their convincing value.
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AlNg
Guest
Suppose that every time a plane crashed, that Catholic nuns on the plane were unharmed, and that every time there was a car accident, the Catholic nuns in the car were unharmed, and every time there was an earthquake, a tornado or a tsunami, the Catholic nuns in the area were not harmed, and this happened without fail over a long period of time, then would that convince an atheist that there was a supernatural power protecting the Catholic nuns?Tell me more! I am willing to be convinced!
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Nahar
Guest
It would be an interesting coincidence. But to accept it as evidence you would need a prediction. For every hypothesis the only evidence is to make a prediction and see if the prediction is validated by the actual events.Suppose that every time a plane crashed, that Catholic nuns on the plane were unharmed, and that every time there was a car accident, the Catholic nuns in the car were unharmed, and every time there was an earthquake, a tornado or a tsunami, the Catholic nuns in the area were not harmed, and this happened without fail over a long period of time, then would that convince an atheist that there was a supernatural power protecting the Catholic nuns?
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Sundiver
Guest
Whoa! That is saying volumes. It could take years to sift through all of that you wrote in those three paragraphs.…. alleged attributes of the Christian God are partially nonsensical, partially contradictory and some are contradicted by the physical reality.
I once knew an atheist who didn’t believe in God but did believe in life after death. Do you believe in life after death?
The Bible appears to contradict itself because it is holophrasic. It is similar to the double slit experiment. Light appears to cancel out waves and at the same time build up waves within the same beam. Imagine this happening in every dimension. It would be very confusing but, there is order to it even though we can’t see it.
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TryingtoGainFaith
Guest
Just tell him to pursue truth.
That’s, don’t look for arguments to win besides nurturing an ability to hold unknowns close to heart and resist the temptation to explain away, he will eventually find the God.
That’s, don’t look for arguments to win besides nurturing an ability to hold unknowns close to heart and resist the temptation to explain away, he will eventually find the God.
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HerCrazierHalf
Guest
So… Your saying that “idk” will will be replaced with “God”?nurturing an ability to hold unknowns close to heart and resist the temptation to explain away, he will eventually find the God.
Really? Seems rather uncharitable.You can’t they are stubborn and arrogant.
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FiveLinden
Guest
I would say that the coincidence involved, if this was repeated hundreds of times, would require investigation: the establishment of hypotheses, development of theories and replication. But ‘supernatural’ explanations would not be a ‘go to’ place. Even if ‘supernatural’ explanations were eventually identified as the only possible explanation it would not convince me that there was a god or gods. Just supernatural forces. Ascribing attributes to supernatural forces believers think they see is a fallacious step in reasoning. I would be persuaded by any of Jesus’ miracles in the Bible if done in controlled conditions that there were ‘spiritual’ forces. But I would want part of the controlling done by performance magicians who are able to ‘do’ similar things. But raising the dead is hard to argue with.Suppose that every time a plane crashed, that Catholic nuns on the plane were unharmed, and that every time there was a car accident, the Catholic nuns in the car were unharmed, and every time there was an earthquake, a tornado or a tsunami, the Catholic nuns in the area were not harmed, and this happened without fail over a long period of time, then would that convince an atheist that there was a supernatural power protecting the Catholic nuns?
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Nahar
Guest
I don’t think it is that complicated.Whoa! That is saying volumes. It could take years to sift through all of that you wrote in those three paragraphs.
Not I. But there are many who believe in reincarnation.I once knew an atheist who didn’t believe in God but did believe in life after death. Do you believe in life after death?
I was not talking about the bible. Only about the “omnimax” attributes. Omniscience and omnipotence are not rigorously defined - and, of course they are mutually contradictory. And “benevolence” is refuted by the actual state of affairs. How can anyone call an entity “benevolent” who commits and/or permits horrible acts?The Bible appears to contradict itself because it is holophrasic. It is similar to the double slit experiment. Light appears to cancel out waves and at the same time build up waves within the same beam. Imagine this happening in every dimension. It would be very confusing but, there is order to it even though we can’t see it.
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