How to convince someone that Liturgical Dance is a "no-no"

[Servus_Pio_XII]

He recently went to a Youth Conference in Atlanta (entitled “The Winds of Change”… ), according to him, there were “like 20 bishops” and several hundred priests there.

Anywho, he went on to say, “and, you know what, they had liturgical dance” (we have debated this for quite some time). I attempted to explain that there was once a time when the Pope himself was convinced that the Church would be overrun by a popular heresy, and that only the rulings of bishops TEACHING IN COMMUNION WITH ROME were licit. He said, “yeah, like 5 million years ago”.

I said that this was not the point, that it was 1,600 years ago, and that the idea I was trying to convey was that teaching, not numbers, mattered. I then cited the document headed “Religious Dance: An Expression of Spiritual Joy”, issued in (I think) 1975, by the Curia, which calls dance in the Mass, “desecralising”. He said, “Things are different”. I explained, calmly, that 30 years was not a long time, ecclesiastically speaking.

It went awry as he kept repeating a two-word mantra of his own design (“You’re Wrong”), and we both went away as firmly set in our convictions as when we had arrived.

So, how do I convey that Liturgical Dance = :tsktsk:

I thank you in advance for any advice.

 

[mgy100]

You can’t. When the majority believes it is correct, then in turn it becomes “correct.” The more people get away with it… the more accepted it becomes. The point of no return has been reached. The people I know that find it odd don’t say anything about it being wrong. Liturgical dancing is here to stay. Even if a command came down from High to end it, it still would go on.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I find it hard to be that cynical. As always, I recall Arianism. There was a time when it was poised to destroy Roman Catholicism, but it abated, and here we are.

 

[jkuebler]

As you can tell by my minimal number of posts, I am very new on the Forums, but I am not new to Liturgy, being 58 years old and a cradle Catholic. I guess I will get “my feet wet” by weighing in on this discussion.
The Liturgy of the Mass is very precious to me, just as it seems to be to the others on this thread, and I do not think that it should be cheapened by meaningless gestures. However, I also do not think that we should completely repress people who are moving as they feel the Spirit guides them. I would think that there could be a time and a place for it, as long as it is done with reverence and decorum.
Just because something has not been a part of the liturgy in the past, that doesn’t mean that it can never be introduced. In fact, kneeling at Mass was a medieval innovation, an outgrowth of the feudal tradition of kneeling before an overlord or prince. It was unknown in Catholic worship before feudal times, and, as I understand it, it is still not done in many Eastern churches. In fact, I believe that Vatican II tried to eliminate kneeling in all public worship, but the US bishops voted to retain it. Thus, it seems that kneeling is a questionable liturgical gesture.
I think that liturgical dance needs to be studied and not just be discarded out of hand. If the Spirit is moving, who are we to resist the movement?

 

[fix]

                 Secondly, we must mention the gesture of falling to one's knees before another, which is described four times in the Gospels(cf. Mk 1:40; 10:17; Mt 17:14; 27:29) by means of the word *gonypetein*...

                 In saying this, we come to the typical gesture of kneeling on one or both knees. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament, the verb *barak*, "to kneel", is cognate with the word   *berek*, "knee". The Hebrews regarded the knees as a symbol of strength, to bend the knee is, therefore, to bend our strength before the living God, an acknowledgment of the fact that all that we are we receive from Him. In important passages of the Old Testament, this gesture appears as an expression of worship. ..

                 The Christian Liturgy is a cosmic Liturgy precisely because it bends the knee before the crucified and exalted Lord. Here is the center of authentic culture - the culture of truth. The humble gesture by which we fall at the feet of the Lord inserts us into the true path of life of the cosmos...

It may well be that kneeling is alien to modern culture – insofar as it is a culture, for this culture has turned away from the faith and no longer knows the one before whom kneeling is the right, indeed the intrinsically necessary gesture. The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself.

          **The Theology of Kneeling**
          **From Cardinal Ratzinger's   *The Spirit of the Liturgy

adoremus.org/1102TheologyKneel.html***

 

[Jayson]

Why can’t the Churches just listen to Rome? Why must the bishops be aiming for a horizontal structure? Shouldn’t our parish churches be the leaves on a tree who’s trunk is the pope?

I was reading in Mother Angelica’s biography about her battles with the US Bishops. The fact that they didn’t like what she was saying because it she was being obedient to Rome instead of the US bishops really saddened me.

If the Pope discourages liturgical dance, that should be the end of the discussion as far as I can see. But maybe I’m too ill informed to have an opinion or maybe I’m too close minded.

 

[rwoehmke]

I am certainly not enthralled by the notion of Liturgical dance and the few times I have seen it, maybe twice in thirty years, has done little to change my mind. But…to equate it with Arianism seems to me to be a stretch. That being said one finds many close minded folks in our pews and it isn’t just those who hold to orthodox positions or agendas. It is a infection rather common to conservative and liberal alike. I have learned not to waste my time trying to convince anyone to change their minds. Live your life as an example and walk away from them. You will sleep better at night.

 

[jkuebler]

Thank you, Fix, for that enlightening quotation. It has sent my feeble mind swimming. I will have to digest it for a little while before I make a further response.

 

[AltarMan]

I think this might add to the discussion:

Following is a question asked of Francis Cardinal Arinze, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments concerning liturgical dance:

Question: Has liturgical dance been approved for Masses by your office?

Answer: There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents – some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.

Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. **We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. **That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

Don’t misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: “you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don’t dance?”

A moment – we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter]

Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it’s all right.

But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap – don’t you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap – there is something wrong – immediately. When they clap – a dance is done and they clap.

It is possible that there could be a dance that is so exquisite that it raises people’s minds to God, and they are praying and adoring God and when the dance is finished they are still wrapped up in prayer. But is that the type of dance you have seen? You see. It is not easy.

Most dances that are staged during Mass should have been done in the parish hall. And some of them are not even suitable for the parish hall.

I saw in one place – I will not tell you where – where they staged a dance during Mass, and that dance was offensive. It broke the rules of moral theology and modesty. Those who arranged it – they should have had their heads washed with a bucket of holy water! [laughter]

Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven’t we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That’s how I feel about it.

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

 

[AltarMan]

jkuebler:

As you can tell by my minimal number of posts, I am very new on the Forums, but I am not new to Liturgy, being 58 years old and a cradle Catholic. I guess I will get “my feet wet” by weighing in on this discussion.
The Liturgy of the Mass is very precious to me, just as it seems to be to the others on this thread, and I do not think that it should be cheapened by meaningless gestures. However, I also do not think that we should completely repress people who are moving as they feel the Spirit guides them. I would think that there could be a time and a place for it, as long as it is done with reverence and decorum.
Just because something has not been a part of the liturgy in the past, that doesn’t mean that it can never be introduced. In fact, kneeling at Mass was a medieval innovation, an outgrowth of the feudal tradition of kneeling before an overlord or prince. It was unknown in Catholic worship before feudal times, and, as I understand it, it is still not done in many Eastern churches. In fact, I believe that Vatican II tried to eliminate kneeling in all public worship, but the US bishops voted to retain it. Thus, it seems that kneeling is a questionable liturgical gesture.
I think that liturgical dance needs to be studied and not just be discarded out of hand. If the Spirit is moving, who are we to resist the movement?

It does mean that it should be introduced through the Holy See and not though abusive local measures.

 

[Jayson]

I think this might add to the discussion:
Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven’t we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That’s how I feel about it.

This sums it up entirely! I think a lot of problems are stemming from a lack of faith and a lack of belief in the true meaning of the mass. If people could see Jesus in bodily form up in the sanctuary, everyone would be on there knees. Because they do not see him in this way, however, they don’t act appropriately, especially considering what is truly happening at mass. Christ, your king, is before you. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe!

 

[jkuebler]

AltarMan:

And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you!

I am very disappointed by this post. Who are we to judge?! The Lord gave us our talents and expects us to use them. The person doing the liturgical dance may be doing so with reverence and sincerity. And that person is NOT bringing the dance to US! but to the Lord!!!

 

[thistle]

Could someone explain to me what a Liturgical Dance is? I guess from the posts that it is a dance done during the Mass. I have never attended a Mass where dancing took place during the Mass so what part of the Mass does it fit in to? The only dancing I’ve seen is at Children’s Mass but that takes place immediately after the Mass has ended.

 

[fix]

jkuebler:

I am very disappointed by this post. Who are we to judge?! The Lord gave us our talents and expects us to use them. The person doing the liturgical dance may be doing so with reverence and sincerity. And that person is NOT bringing the dance to US! but to the Lord!!!

The issue really is one of authority. By whose authority does one decide they may dance during the mass? And if the authority, meaning Rome, has said it should not be done, then no matter how sincere one may be it is not right.

 

[puzzleannie]

to set the record straight I understand from people who when to the GA youth conference that the dance troupe who performed were professionally trained, modestly dressed and performed exquisitely in a praise-music setting, NOT during the liturgy. If anyone’s experience was different or contradictory I would like to know.

 

[AltarMan]

jkuebler:

I am very disappointed by this post. Who are we to judge?! The Lord gave us our talents and expects us to use them. The person doing the liturgical dance may be doing so with reverence and sincerity. And that person is NOT bringing the dance to US! but to the Lord!!!

That quote is not mine. It belongs to Francis Cardinal Arinze, Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments.

No matter what our God-given gifts, they should not be used to degrade the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and/or to ignore what the Church directs from us.

Liturgical dance is an abomination in most cases and it needs to stop.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Servo Pio: If you look on the USCCB website, you’ll find that the Bishops of the US have gone on record opposing liturgical dance, in submission to the Holy See. Now, whether individual bishops comply with that is another story (witness Cardinal Mahoney of Los Angeles).

 

[Fidei_Defensor]

The Catholic Church has officially banned any Liturgical Dance in the Roman Rite since 1975, through the authority of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. Look at the following authoritative essay published by said Congregation, you will find that the use of dance in the liturgy is expressly and explicitly forbidden.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWDANCE.HTM

Roma Locuta Est, Causa Finita Est.
Rome has Spoken, the Case is Finished.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I am very disappointed by this post. Who are we to judge?! The Lord gave us our talents and expects us to use them. The person doing the liturgical dance may be doing so with reverence and sincerity. And that person is NOT bringing the dance to US! but to the Lord!!!

Ummm…we are to judge acts, not people. Liturgical Dance is a desecralising act. No matter who performs it. End of story. Done.

Thank you all for your contributions.

 

[aria13]

In the Old Testament, David danced, and sang, and rejoiced loudly to praise God. Christ never said it was bad; He enjoyed all kinds praise and worship to His Father. Is the church second guessing Christ? Is this something handed down over the years by men who didn’t find it appropriate?