How to convince someone that Liturgical Dance is a "no-no"

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aria13:
In the Old Testament, David danced, and sang, and rejoiced loudly to praise God. Christ never said it was bad; He enjoyed all kinds praise and worship to His Father. Is the church second guessing Christ? Is this something handed down over the years by men who didn’t find it appropriate?
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Gee, the ancient Jews used to incinerate farm animals on the altar of sacrifice too. Should we bring that back as well?

In all sincerity, the Catholic Church* is the mystical body of Christ!* All its members being guided and directed by Christ the Head! The Church cannot “second guess” Jesus the Christ. Impossible.
 
Everyone has talents – I have an aunt who cooks lasagna which floats – she wouldn’t do it during Mass. The Mass liturgy is a formalized structure for common worship. It has been made perfectly clear that liturgical dancing in the west is not to be part of that. Every gift or talent we have is not to be brought to or carried out in the Mass structure.
 
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aria13:
In the Old Testament, David danced, and sang, and rejoiced loudly to praise God. Christ never said it was bad; He enjoyed all kinds praise and worship to His Father. Is the church second guessing Christ? Is this something handed down over the years by men who didn’t find it appropriate?
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Did Christ dance during the Last Supper?
Did Christ tell us to “dance in memory of Me”?

David danced befoe the Lord, when the Ark of the Covenent was brought to Jerusalem. Did he “dance before the Lord” in the Temple while the priests were offering sacrifces on the altar?

Christ never said dancing was bad. He also never said wine was bad. In fact He performed a miracle to provide wine for the wedding party at Cana. Shall we therefore drink wine in the pews during Mass?

“Is the church second guessing Christ?” Why are the liturgical dancers second guessing the Pope, and the bishops who stand with him?
 
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HagiaSophia:
Everyone has talents – I have an aunt who cooks lasagna which floats – she wouldn’t do it during Mass. The Mass liturgy is a formalized structure for common worship. It has been made perfectly clear that liturgical dancing in the west is not to be part of that. Every gift or talent we have is not to be brought to or carried out in the Mass structure.
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For which I am grateful…
 
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HagiaSophia:
Every gift or talent we have is not to be brought to or carried out in the Mass structure.
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perish the thought, I think of the 6th graders in CCD who are talented in creating a variety of noises through bodily processes, and granddaughter who could argue the hind leg off a donkey, and, well, it just boggles the mind. There is a time and place, and Mass is not the time or place for anything but worship of God, and the music, actions of the ministers, participation of the congregation is to the service of the Liturgy, not for entertainment, so anything which draws attention away from the proclamation of the word and from the altar of sacrifice is forbidden.
 
Women and children were to stand in the back of the church and never be heard nor seen either, that’s in Scripture also. I was just asking if maybe people aren’t seeing another form of worship. Why is it sacriligious? If a person uses dance to show VISUALLY what the scripture is saying, why is that wrong? If you don’t think dance can tell a story, you are very wrong.

Many things are done in Church that were never done before…signing for the deaf, children’s messages, decorating for holidays, playing instruments, baptism during services, LETTING WOMEN DO ANYTHING! Are you willing to take these away because they aren’t in Scripture? Why can’t people use their gifts/talents if they are used to praise God? (the lasagna isn’t necessarily a talent, she just found a good recipe. You could share it.) 🙂 HOWEVER, having a lasagna supper is a good idea…there the wonderful talent of cooking will be displayed.

I’m just curious as to why you consider this so terrible. No one ever said it should be done during Communion, so the comment on dancing during the Last Supper was kind of out of line. As for drinking wine in the pews, if a person can’t walk up for Communion where do you think they will be served? Oh, and sacrificing…well, Christ made the ultimate sacrifice, so sacrificing on the altar isn’t needed. Liturgical dance can be so beautiful. It’s been around for years, and probably won’t go away. I wouldn’t probably wouldn’t want to see it at all services, but youth services, special occasions, etc it has a place.
 
Servus Pio XII:
Ummm…we are to judge acts, not people. Liturgical Dance is a desecralising act. No matter who performs it. End of story. Done.

Thank you all for your contributions.
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Don’t look now but…

From “Liturgy and Music, Lifetime Learning” by The Liturgical Press, copyright 1998, The Order of St. Benedict, Inc.

"Symbolic Actions in Christian Worship, Patrick Byrne
  1. Dancing at particular moments in the liturgy.
    David danced as the arc of the covenant was brought to Jerusalem (2 Sam 6). Even today some Jewish people dance during the celebration of Simchat Torah. Religious dancing is accepted in many cultures. While this may not be part of our North American, British Isles, Northern European or Puritan backgrounds, it is part of many other nations and cultures which are part of our mosaic today. While many of us may not be ready for dancing or clapping in our worship services, these gestures may be a way in which we could use our bodies in worship in the years to come."
Food for thought.

Richard
 
AlterMan thanks for the article. I thought it might make a good homily. Two it made me chuckle - dunking the head in a bucket of Holy Water.
 
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aria13:
I wouldn’t probably wouldn’t want to see it at all services, but youth services, special occasions, etc it has a place.
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The Church says differently.
 
Are you willing to take these away because they aren’t in Scripture? Why can’t people use their gifts/talents if they are used to praise God?
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Because Holy Mother Church has decided that “Liturgical Dance” is not acceptible. The Church is sole authoritative interpreter of Scripture and sole authoritative teacher on what should go on during the Liturgy. Therefore, if Rome has spoken (and She has) the cause is finished.

Every Mass should still be reverent-like the old Tridentine Mass was. The Novus Ordo should be celebrated reverently, with more Latin, more Gregorian Chant, less innovations and hoopin’ n’ hollerin’.
 
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aria13:
Women and children were to stand in the back of the church and never be heard nor seen either, that’s in Scripture also. I was just asking if maybe people aren’t seeing another form of worship. Why is it sacriligious? If a person uses dance to show VISUALLY what the scripture is saying, why is that wrong? If you don’t think dance can tell a story, you are very wrong.

Many things are done in Church that were never done before…signing for the deaf, children’s messages, decorating for holidays, playing instruments, baptism during services, LETTING WOMEN DO ANYTHING! Are you willing to take these away because they aren’t in Scripture? Why can’t people use their gifts/talents if they are used to praise God? (the lasagna isn’t necessarily a talent, she just found a good recipe. You could share it.) 🙂 HOWEVER, having a lasagna supper is a good idea…there the wonderful talent of cooking will be displayed.

I’m just curious as to why you consider this so terrible. No one ever said it should be done during Communion, so the comment on dancing during the Last Supper was kind of out of line. As for drinking wine in the pews, if a person can’t walk up for Communion where do you think they will be served? Oh, and sacrificing…well, Christ made the ultimate sacrifice, so sacrificing on the altar isn’t needed. Liturgical dance can be so beautiful. It’s been around for years, and probably won’t go away. I wouldn’t probably wouldn’t want to see it at all services, but youth services, special occasions, etc it has a place.
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Because the Church has said NO to liturgical dance in many parts of the world. Does that mean things will never change? No, it does not, but change must take place licitly though the Holy See, and not as abusives addendums to the Mass.

Liturgical dance (at least in the USA) is under extreme pressue, thanks be to God and this will only intensify under Pope Benedict XVI. What we are seeing right now in some parishes is the last-gasp fight of the abusers. I don’t expect future generations will ever be subject to such degrading additions to the Mass.

Finally, I’m not sure about you, but I have never consumed even a drop of wine in any Catholic church – although I have received the Precious Blood of Christ on countless occasions…
 
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ComradeAndrei:
Every Mass should still be reverent-like the old Tridentine Mass was.
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How reverent is a Mass where few people know or understand the words being said in a foreign language (Latin), almost none actually participate in the ritual and the congregation needs to be alerted by bells when something significant is happening? Yes, the NO Mass (indeed EVERY Mass) should be celebrated by ALL reverently.
 
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jkuebler:
How reverent is a Mass where few people know or understand the words being said in a foreign language (Latin), almost none actually participate in the ritual and the congregation needs to be alerted by bells when something significant is happening? Yes, the NO Mass (indeed EVERY Mass) should be celebrated by ALL reverently.
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Do you think all those folks who assisted at the latin mass all those years were not reverent and not participating? How did the Church produce all those saints?
 
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jkuebler:
How reverent is a Mass where few people know or understand the words being said in a foreign language (Latin), almost none actually participate in the ritual and the congregation needs to be alerted by bells when something significant is happening? Yes, the NO Mass (indeed EVERY Mass) should be celebrated by ALL reverently.
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You may not have understood the language, but my five year old can.
I don’t think that you are giving the average Pete in the Pew credit where credit is due.
These people had the Latin Mass every week. They were taught by nuns and guided by priests who understood it. Why is it that those Catholics born when VII came into popularity, think that no one understood what people experienced every week??

My Grandmother was in the choir and had no clue about Latin, but she could sing it and knew what was going on in the mass. She never even made it into 8th grade!

If you don’t understand Latin, may I suggest a program called “Latin’s not so tough”. You may be surprised how easy it is.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator):
You may not have understood the language, but my five year old can.
I don’t think that you are giving the average Pete in the Pew credit where credit is due.
These people had the Latin Mass every week. They were taught by nuns and guided by priests who understood it. Why is it that those Catholics born when VII came into popularity, think that no one understood what people experienced every week??

My Grandmother was in the choir and had no clue about Latin, but she could sing it and knew what was going on in the mass. She never even made it into 8th grade!

If you don’t understand Latin, may I suggest a program called “Latin’s not so tough”. You may be surprised how easy it is.
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Amen.
 
How reverent is a Mass where few people know or understand the words being said in a foreign language (Latin), almost none actually participate in the ritual and the congregation needs to be alerted by bells when something significant is happening?
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Pretty reverent considering that we didn’t have the problems with people thinking they could introduce any innovations they felt like because of the “Spirit of Vatican II”. I could just imagine if someone wanted to introduce “liturgical dance” or any other error into a Tridentine Mass-wouldn’t fly.

Plus, it isn’t that hard if you pay attention. Even less so if you kick loose a few bucks and buy a missal (it has the Latin AND the English translation).
Yes, the NO Mass (indeed EVERY Mass) should be celebrated by ALL reverently.
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Agreed. If all Masses were celebrated reverently, there would be no room for erronous innovations.
 
Finally, I’m not sure about you, but I have never consumed even a drop of wine in any Catholic church – although I have received the Precious Blood of Christ on countless occasions…

AltarMan:

I’ve never consumed a drop on wine in any Catholic Church, nor have I received the blood of Christ at any Catholic Church. I’m Lutheran…and I can’t.

Sorry…just being a bit silly. And don’t take that wrong, because I just know someone’s going to jump all over that and say there’s nothing silly about Holy Communion. So, I beat you to it…I was still just being silly. 🙂
 
ewtn.com/pope/words/some_quotations.asp

Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. For these people, the Crucifixion was only an appearance. . . . Dancing could take the place of the liturgy of the Cross, because, after all, the Cross was only an appearance. The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes - incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy - none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy as the “reasonable sacrifice”. It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy “attractive” by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause. Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.
This action of God, which takes place through human speech, is the real “action” for which all creation is in expectation. The elements of the earth are transubstantiated, pulled, so to speak, from their creaturely anchorage, grasped at the deepest ground of their being, and changed into the Body and Blood of the Lord. The New Heaven and the New Earth are anticipated. The real “action” in the liturgy in which we are all supposed to participate is the action of God himself. This is what is new and distinctive about the Christian liturgy: God himself acts and does what is essential.

The Cross is the approbation of our existence, not in words, but in an act so completely radical that it caused God to become flesh and pierced this flesh to the quick; that, to God, it was worth the death of his incarnate Son. One who is so loved that the other identifies his life with this love and no longer desires to live if he is deprived of it; one who is loved even unto death – such a one knows that he is truly loved. But if God so loves us, then we are loved in truth. Then love is truth, and truth is love. Then life is worth living. This is the evangelium. This is why, even as the message of the Cross, it is glad tidings for one who believes; the only glad tidings that destroy the ambiguity of all other joys and make them worthy to be joy. Christianity is, by its very nature, joy – the ability to be joyful.
 
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ComradeAndrei:
Pretty reverent considering that we didn’t have the problems with people thinking they could introduce any innovations they felt like…
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The Tridentine Mass was not immune to even the most serious of liturgical abuses. Please consider the following from Adoremus.org:

The Old Mass

"Stop! Take off the rose-colored glasses and face a reality of 20/20 hindsight. I began serving “the old Mass” in 1939. I am now 73 years old, 45 years a priest, having begun my seminary studies in 1950. As a kid knowing the perfect recitation of all the Latin Mass responses, we dealt with mumbled praying of many priests. In the old days there were parishes that were known as “whiz churches”: Sunday Mass, in and out in 20 minutes.

Young priests were told the motto: “Get them out fast”. In college I was too embarrassed to invite my dormitory roommates to Sunday Mass - the blatant lack of piety was a scandal. Rarely do I look back and remember edifying experiences as being the norm. But, yes, there were some.

In my experience today the gains outshine the losses. Yes, I know where craziness exists and horror stories are a fact. But the gains were tremendous. Yes, we are still growing/becoming what we should be. Change begets excesses – the pendulum swings from one extreme to the other, yet eventually resting in the middle… The recent writings and promulgations of our Holy Father give us hope, e.g., the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USCCB Website), Sacrosanctum Concilium, and Ecclesia de Eucharistia.

Don’t despair. If there is craziness in your parish, pray for your bishop, write lovingly to the offending priest and copy it to the diocesan liturgical committee. Don’t you be crazy too – document accurately the observation of misdirection.

Having been a pastor for 27 years, in a variety of multicultural parishes, I have witnessed, in these changing times, the evolution of a profoundly rich contemporary Mass that is celebrated within the rules.

Would I go back to pre-Vatican II days? No way. I reverence the past, but live and work in the richness of the present, championing orthodoxy and “working to beat hell!”

Be patient. Treat all with charity, pray unceasingly and know that truth will conquer. As the Adoremus Bulletin tells us: “The Holy Father asks bishops and liturgists to build on the ‘riches’ of the reform while also pruning ‘serious abuses’ with ‘prudent firmness’”. (“The Foundations of Liturgical Reform”, March 2004)

Father Andre J. Meluskey
Senior Priest, St. Patrick Church
Carlisle, Pennsylvania"
 
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