How to counter the "Hitler was a Christian" argument

[rocklobster]

I made the mistake again. I tried to evangelize on youtube.:slapfight: ensued. Someone threw the “Hitler was a Christian” argument in my face. I’m curious, how much mileage does this have? I mean, he was a politician–wouldn’t he use anything to gain favor?

 

[BobCatholic]

Hitler was NOT a Christian NOR an Atheist. In front of atheists he mocked Christianity, in front of Christians he acted as if he were one. He was phony to both groups. It is true he was baptized Catholic but he fell away and never came back.

The truth is: He was an occultist.

I remember listening to a program by Catholic Answers Live, with Roy Schoemann (sp?) (brother of Mother Miriam of the Lamb of God) where he said that Hitler was an occultist.

The first run of Mein Kampf had a preface dedicating it to his occultist spiritual master. Subsequent printings of the book omitted this.

 

[Romojr50]

I don’t know much about Hitler’s ties to Christianity myself but I know that even if he was a Christian he certainly didn’t follow the faith very well. Can we judge an organization by one evil member, especially when that man blatantly defies the rules and guidelines of that organization? What if there is a police department with a corrupt cop who steals and murders? Should the whole department be judged as evil because of this bad member?

 

[GreatergoodGod]

He wasn’t a devout Christian then. I heard he was influenced heavily by Friedrich Nietzsche.

 

[PaulfromIowa]

Hitler was violently anti-Christian, especially anti-Catholic. Anyone with the most basic knowledge of history knows this.

 

[Theophorus]

Hitler was a christian in the same was Richard Dawkins is, and Christopher Hitchens was.(Please note I am not drawing moral equivalents between the three people nor between christianity and non-theism)

All three were baptised into the Christian faith and all three publically turned against it in later life. Hitlers words and actions were and remain incompatible with Christian belief, though like many politicians he was outwardly christian when it suited him.

In his case his driving force was a form of occult race worship based around the notion of “Blood and Soil” which cherry picked bits from several philosophies including Fredrick Nietzsche’s, and which exploited the jewish people.

The ‘hitler was a christian’ argument carries no weight, and one who tries to use it in an argument is clutching at straws.

 

[Robertanthony]

Trying to debate with someone who has so little good faith that it’s doubtful you could see it under a microscope is futile. Try with someone who doesn’t intend , from the get-go, to simply destroy all your arguments. I didn’t know there was slapfighting on Youtube, really? God knows it gets very nasty sometimes.

Planet Claire is an awesome song!

 

[CJECulver]

“How to counter the ‘Hitler was a Christian’ argument”

Two words: “Was not.”

Or: “Prove it.”

In both logic and legal circles the burden of proof rests with the one making the assertion. If someone wants to assert Hitler was a Christian (or even a Catholic), you have absolutely no burden to disprove anything. Smile patronizingly, shake your head bemusedly, and walk away.

Keep in mind that it’s highly unlikely anyone dragging this particular red herring across your path is really interested in whether Hitler was a Christian and will hardly pay attention to any counter-arguments you try to make. She has an agenda based on some other grievance. If you wish to engage this person, your first job is to find out what her real issue with Christianity is. Don’t fall for the red herrings.

Another possible response is, “Yeah, so what?” The response will almost certainly be something like, “That proves Christianity is evil!” or some such nonsense. Simply point out to him that he has utterly failed to demonstrate any connection whatsoever between the teachings of Christianity and Nazi atrocities.

Notice that in every case you’re responding to her baiting by simply tossing the ball back into her court. Responding defensively just cedes control of the conversation to her. You’ll lose that discussion every time.

Or, you can just invoke Godwin’s Law and declare yourself the winner

 

[DaveBj]

Jesus said that His followers would be recognized by their fruits (= good works).

Question: Did Hitler produce the fruits (works) that would identify him as a Christian?

Answer: No.

Response: Then Hitler was not a Christian.

 

[Gricken]

I don’t think you can “counter” this.
Check the history books, but it seems to be fact that Hitler was baptized and raised in the Catholic religion. I think he was even an altar server. He attended a Benedictine monastery school for one year. His mother was a practicing Catholic. He was confirmed and he sang in the choir at the monastery.

In his book Mein Kampf and in his speeches, he spoke of being Christian.

He said in one speech:
I]
“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian, I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.”

I think there is no doubt Hitler was a Catholic…because, as it has been said here on the forum many, many times…once you are baptized Catholic, your “spiritual DNA” changes and you are Catholic for eternity.

He was surely a “lapsed” Catholic, no doubt about that!
But he was indeed baptized and confirmed into the Catholic church, and that does make him Catholic, bound by Church teachings, beliefs and obligations forever, does it not?

At least…this is what I’ve seen apologists and CAF members say to dozens upon dozens of posters here on this forum, almost every day.

.
A good way to put it. Being “Christian” is not the same as “Being a model christian” As far as to what religions ideals he held too. He didn’t really hold to any, He isn’t really a good model for any philosophy, except his own.

 

[dailey]

Anyone call call themselves anything they want. Doesn’t make it so.

 

[JimG]

In what way was he a Christian?

By baptism? Yes.
By practice? No.
By following Christian moral principles? No.
Yes, baptism imparts an indelible mark on the soul. It stays with a person forever, even in hell.

 

[Holly3278]

Well, one can technically be a Christian while still not being a practicing Christian. Hitler most definitely was not a practicing Christian. He may have been baptized as a Christian or something and so he technically was a Christian but that doesn’t mean he believe din Christianity and he certainly didn’t practice it. Therefore, the fact that he was Christian has no bearing on Christianity itself because he didn’t practice it and I don’t think he believed in it either.

 

[prodigalson2011]

Hitler was associated with the Thule Society, an occultist anti-Semitic Aryan supremacist group that actually formed the basis of the Nazi party. He was also a fan of Nietzsche and Madame Helena Blavatsky, the founder of the occultist Theosophical Society, both of whom also preached the advent of, respectively, the Superman or master race. Interestingly, Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, who was also an anti-Christian racist/Social Darwinist/eugenicist, was involved with the Theosophical Society, and also paid a visit to Hitler (at his request) in the late 1930’s. Hitler, it seems, was a great admirer.

It is well known that the birth of the Nazi Party is connected to the Thule Society. The Thule’s were basically a “secret society” that was in pursuit of occult esoteric knowledge. The Thule Society was formed about 1914, and grew to over 1,500 members. Its membership was varied from all different people…

…The Thules believed they descended from the Aryans, a race of Causcasian “supermen” that lived nearly a million years ago. These same concepts are connected to the occult view of the continent of Lemuria (Mu) and Atlantis.

The Thules were occupied in a propaganda war against the Jews. They convinced the German public of a sinister Jewish conspiracy blaming them for nearly all of Germany’s problems…

The similarity to the secret doctrine of the occultists cannot be overlooked. “Creation is not finished. Man is clearly approaching a phase of metamorphosis. The earlier human species has already reached the stage of dying out… All of the force of creation will be concentrated in a new species… [which] will surpass infinitely modern man… Do you understand now the profound meaning of our National Socialist movement?” (Adolf Hitler, quoted by Hermann Rauschning, Hitler ma’a dit [Hitler Speaks] p.147, translated in The Occult and the Third Reich, Jean and Michel Angebert, p.178.)

Hitler’s ideas about the Aryan race came from the Thule Society. Thule was supposedly a lost island inhabited by a ancient race that were “masters of wisdom” (much like the mythology of Atlantis or Lemuria and the spiritual hierarchy, the White Brotherhood today). Though unseen, they are a superior highly intelligent beings working behind the scenes (as Benjamen Crème states). Hitler believed he was in contact with them and that they gave him power and energy. Through his alleged contacts with this mythical superior race, he believed he was destined to lead the Aryans to rule the world. Hitler’s vision of the world was that Germany would unite the world under his leadership which would last for 1,000 years.

Contance Cumbey, in her book “The Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow” summarized Hitler’s path to being Germany’s messianic figure: “While still a very young child, Hitler was initiated into the finer mysteries of the occult. He attended a Benedictine monastery school near his German home. “The occult interests Hitler gained in this school, stayed with him all of his adult life and helped to shape his future spiritual philosophy.”

Cumbey: “While Hitler was in Vienna pursuing a career as an archi*tect and artist, he spent his spare time in occult bookstores and libraries, acquainting himself with the mysteries of metaphysical lore and gaining the acquaintance of adepts in both “white” and “black” magic. Transcendent states of consciousness and mind expansion fascinated him and he devoted every spare cent and minute to the pursuit of higher consciousness. Yoga, astrology, Eastern and Western “paths” to this goal proved too slow for his ambitions and like many impetuous New Agers of today, he decided to accelerate the process by supplementing meditation with drugs [Mescaline] ( p.101”the Hidden Dangers of the Rainbow”)

Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels were Catholic in their background before they indulged themselves into a new spiritual worldview. Occult books were some of Hitler’s favorite reading. It was in the early 1920’s Dietrich Eckart introduced Hitler to “The Secret Doctrine,” by Blavatsky. He was taught its secrets by Professor-General Karl Haushofer (Suster), who was a member of the Berlin Lodge of the Vril Society. One of the primary qualifications for one to be admitted to the Vril Society was to have a minimum ability in Blavatsky’s “Secret Doctrine.” Karl Haushofer was alleged to be a master of the secret doctrines espoused by Blavatsky, and it was he who initiated prisoner Adolf Hitler at Landsberg Prison.

cont…

 

[prodigalson2011]

…continued from previous post

In 1918, Haushofer went to live in Munich, which became a center of attraction for all manner of occultist and racist groups formed into secret societies. Haushofer eventually became one of the earliest members of the fledgling German Workers Party (DAP), which is the group that changed its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP or “Nazi”) when Hitler became its leader.

In 1918 (age 29) Hitler claimed to hear voices announcing that he was “selected by God to be Germany’s messiah” (The Twisted Cross Joseph J. Carr, p.36); he was later contacted by an “ascended master” whom he identified as Lucifer. Hitler took what Blavatsky and others taught and made it his own.

Cumbey notes: “Hitler rightly believed he had established communication with Lucifer, from whom he openly coveted possession” (Secrets of the Rainbow p.101). It should not surprising to find that he was led to The Secret Doctrine that glorifies Lucifer

The “Secret Doctrine” held that they originated in Atlantis and that one of the seven Atlantean races was that of the Aryans.” the Aryans were the master-race or supermen of the Atlantean races.” The myth of Aryan superiority was the basis for Hitler’s Nazism and ethnic cleansing of the Jews.

“…from theosophists Hitler derived his genesis theories and the notion of a mankind was guided by superior beings, Ubermenchen (supermen), who live in remote areas of the world-such as the Gobi Desert (Western China) and the Himalayan nation of Tibet. There was a substantial Tibetan and Chinese community in Berlin because of the occultic interests of German society, and Hitler augmented them with new émigrés after he came to power. By 1941, there were more than one thousand Tibetans living in Berlin” (The New World Religion by Gary Kah p.26).

Hitler seemed to have favored Blavatsky’s Secret Doctrine above other books he had. We do know that U.S. Army historians catalogued Hitler’s personal library and found numerous Occultic volumes heavily annotated in Hitler’s fancy handwriting. Among the books was one that Hitler often kept by his bedside, the occult standard “The Secret Doctrine” by Madame Helen P. Blavatsky (Kubizek). Hitler kept a copy of Blavatsky’s ‘The Secret Doctrine’ by his bedside, ever since being introduced to its teachings by Dietrich Eckart and Karl Haushofer (Adolf Hitler, The Occult Messiah, Gerald Suster, 1981).

Blavatsky not only claimed these masters were directing the work of the Theosophical Society but were also guiding the evolution of the human race throughout history. Thus Hitler found his place in the grand scheme of these masters.

One of the ideas in this plan is to have men believe in evolution, spiritual evolution. Hitler wrote, “Anyone who interprets National Socialism merely as a political movement knows almost nothing about it. It is more than religion; it is the determination to create a new man.”

“All of the force of creation will be concentrated in a new species… [which] will surpass infinitely modern man… Do you understand now the profound meaning of our National Socialist movement?" (Adolf Hitler, quoted by Hermann Rauschning, Hitler ma’a dit [Hitler Speaks] p.147, translated in The Occult and the Third Reich, Jean & Michel Angebert, p.178.)

The above was taken from letusreason.org/Nam%2037.htm

For more on the Thule Society, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thule_Society

That should give your YouTube buddies enough to chew on.

Alternatively, you could also point out the fact that Hitler’s Russian counterpart, Stalin, was an unabashed atheist. Turn the tables on them.

Ultimately, even though it’s not even true, this is a bigoted argument akin to pointing out that a criminal is of a certain race to suggest that people of that race are inherently depraved. Ask him if he would be comfortable associating Robert Mugabe’s actions with the fact that he’s black.

 

[Johann_du_Toit]

Here’s a link giving us more background regarding Hitler’s religious views.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

Whatever he really believed (or not) it’s indisputable that he held strongly anti-christian views and any pro-christian pronouncements he made in public were contradicted by his views shared with his confidants like Martin Bormann and Alfred Rosenberg.

 

[snarflemike]

Hitler was violently anti-Christian, especially anti-Catholic. Anyone with the most basic knowledge of history knows this.

Witness the Priest Barracks at Dachau, among his countless other anti-Christian acts.

If somebody were to say to me “Hitler was a Christian” I’d reply “and you’re an embryo”. That should help clarify things.

 

[St_Francis]

Hitler was baptized and raised Catholic.

However, he went against Carholic teachings. How can we judge the teachings of the Church by those who go *against *the teachings?

 

[Classicist]

I made the mistake again. I tried to evangelize on youtube.:slapfight: ensued. Someone threw the “Hitler was a Christian” argument in my face. I’m curious, how much mileage does this have? I mean, he was a politician–wouldn’t he use anything to gain favor?

Judas was a Christian. The ‘followers’ of a Way are not the Way itself. The liege-servants of a Lord are not the Lord Himself. This is a specious, fallacious argument.

 

[ccmnxc]

To be honest, I find the whole point irrelevant and fallacious. Even if Hitler was a Christian, what does this prove exactly? That Christianity is false? They simply begin engaging in ad hominem remarks about the faith, which is why I don’t even bother dialoguing with those people. You can draw no valid conclusions from him being a Christian.