How to counter this argument?

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Anthony_Perlas

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I have a favor to ask! Could someone go line-by-line and counter the following argument?
Emphasize how you conned a bunch of Catholics into worshiping (liking, whatever) some of your graven images, and provide a few choice passages.
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Start out easy, with passages that just talk about graven images in general.
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Exodus 20:4 (KJV) “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.”
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Deuteronomy 5:8 (KJV) “Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth.”
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Broaden out into passages that prohibit all “representational art”, restricting you to decoration with “no manner of similitude” and lists the graven image as just one of them. Some Christians take that very seriously. It’s the basis for the Amish view on banning anything representational, right down to blueprints and other diagrams.
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Deuteronomy 4:15-19 (KJV) "Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
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Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
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The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
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The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
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And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven."
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Go on about graven images “in the sight of the Lord”, like wedding photography, or your rosary site.
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Deuteronomy 4:25 (KJV) "When thou shalt beget children, and children’s children, and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger:
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Of course, there are those that will quibble about the meaning of phrases. I had someone once try to tell me that when Deuteronomy said “in the earth”, it meant “under the earth”, like “don’t make graven images of devils or demons”, but I hit them with this:
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Genesis 1:22 (KJV) “And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.”
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I am pretty sure that this does not refer to God’s desire to fill hell with chickens. Two more that show what “in the earth” means.
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Genesis 2:5 (KJV) “And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.”
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Genesis 6:17 (KJV) “And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.”
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And then move on to the death blow. In any discussion about graven images, there will be those who defend them, saying that God only prohibits idolatry, the actual worship of graven images, not the making of them. Isaiah spells it out quite plainly, the making of a graven image is a sin entirely separate from the worshiping of one.
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Isaiah 44:9 (KJV) They that make a graven image are all of them vanity; and their delectable things shall not profit; and they are their own witnesses; they see not, nor know; that they may be ashamed.
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That has nothing to do with the worshiping of graven images, it’s entirely about the vanity of creating graven images. Worshiping graven images is covered in an entirely different paragraph
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Isaiah 44:15 (KJV) Then shall it be for a man to burn: for he will take thereof, and warm himself; yea, he kindleth it, and baketh bread; yea, he maketh a god, and worshippeth it; he maketh it a graven image, and falleth down thereto.
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God doesn’t want anyone engaging in photo “graphy”, the creation of graven images. Cash in on that, brag of how you’re tricking the faithful, and your video should go viral.
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Interesting that Exodus 25:18-20 and Numbers 21:8-9 were left out:
Exodus 25:18-20:
And you shall make two cherubim of gold ; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be"
Numbers 21:8-9:
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
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There are other examples, but I doubt the person making the above argument has an answer for these two “choice passages.”

God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!
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Wow thank you!

Do you have a link of resources to counter-argument the protestants? I love them to death but whenever I’m talking to them in front of a group it’s hard to counter it. And if I stay silent it’s as if (though my intention is to stay silent because I don’t know the true answer) I’m agreeing to them. Meaning the silence acknowledges their victory.
 
These prohibitions were made at a time when such images were worshiped as gods, so God commanded the people not to make images to worship as the pagans around them did.

When Christ came he was Incarnated as a human being, making, in effect, an image of God we are to worship, in his person, and so we do. When Philip asked Jesus to “show us the Father and we will be satisfied” what did our Lord say to him? “How long have I been with you and you still don’t know me?” And St. Paul calls Jesus “the image of the invisible God”. So, the statues/pictures/mosaics we make of him are meant to remain us of this fact.

Images of Mary (usually holding the Christ Child) remind us of Christ’s Incarnation. The Early Church had a big broo-ha over this issue and decided in a Church council, like the one held in Jerusalem in Acts, that depictions of Jesus, Mary and the Saints remind us of Christ’s work of redemption and our salvation, and so are perfectly fine, since they in no way depict pagan gods.

As for bread, Jesus himself said, “Take, eat, this is my body which will be given up for you…” He also said, “My flesh is real food…” Also, the High Priest Melchizadek offered bread and wine as a sacrifice, which St. Paul references in regards to Jesus’ High Priesthood. We worship the consecrated host because Christ is present, body and blood, soul and divinity.
 
Wouldn’t you know those links aren’t working right now. I’ve been referencing those links for a while now and this is the first time they haven’t worked. I’m sure they’ll be working soon. Boy, if I had a duck it would drown!
 
Della said:
These prohibitions were made at a time when such images were worshiped as gods, so God commanded the people not to make images to worship as the pagans around them did.

When Christ came he was Incarnated as a human being, making, in effect, an image of God we are to worship, in his person, and so we do. When Philip asked Jesus to “show us the Father and we will be satisfied” what did our Lord say to him? “How long have I been with you and you still don’t know me?” And St. Paul calls Jesus “the image of the invisible God”. So, the statues/pictures/mosaics we make of him are meant to remain us of this fact.

Images of Mary (usually holding the Christ Child) remind us of Christ’s Incarnation. The Early Church had a big broo-ha over this issue and decided in a Church council, like the one held in Jerusalem in Acts, that depictions of Jesus, Mary and the Saints remind us of Christ’s work of redemption and our salvation, and so are perfectly fine, since they in no way depict pagan gods.

As for bread, Jesus himself said, “Take, eat, this is my body which will be given up for you…” He also said, “My flesh is real food…” Also, the High Priest Melchizadek offered bread and wine as a sacrifice, which St. Paul references in regards to Jesus’ High Priesthood. We worship the consecrated host because Christ is present, body and blood, soul and divinity.
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That’s an interesting insight! Now a typical protestant argument to that is that “God’s word is eternal” and “unchanging”.

But thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut! I never personally had any trouble praying the rosary and in fact I have a lot of devotions to saints. But after reading this I was a bit scared for an act of idolatry. Then I remembered that we are asking intercession rather than “worshipping” or praying to them.

My ex-girlfriend actually made this brilliant statement:

“If you say that we are praying to dead people as Necromancy, are you saying that if we die then we’re dead?”

Jesus is a living God. When we die, we live. So we aren’t practising necromancy by any means.

But this would drive some other protestants to think that “it’s safer” to pray just to Jesus and not to other saints. How should a Catholic answer that? By agreeing to that we are essentially agreeing to the protestant belief. By arguing and saying that we must pray to the saints would also give them the ammunition to say “Jesus is the only truth way and light”.

Thoughts?
 
Lost_and_Found said:
Wouldn’t you know those links aren’t working right now. I’ve been referencing those links for a while now and this is the first time they haven’t worked. I’m sure they’ll be working soon. Boy, if I had a duck it would drown!
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The enemy
 
WordHeavy said:
Yeah please do, I have had to defend the church on numerous times, as I have quite a few coworkers that are fundamentalists and these two web sites along with this site and my Ignatius Catholic Study Bible, have been incredible resources.
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Awesome! I believe that reading poison is detrimental to the unfaithful. I humbly admit that I am not seasoned in these matters of faith. Could you read this article for me and counter every statement?

I didn’t bother to read it yet but I know that it would only add to my doubt. Would rather have you read it for me and then tell me what it says and then tell me why it isn’t true.

scienceblog.com/60730/mother-teresa-anything-but-a-saint/
 
Anthony_Perlas said:
That’s an interesting insight! Now a typical protestant argument to that is that “God’s word is eternal” and “unchanging”.

But thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut! I never personally had any trouble praying the rosary and in fact I have a lot of devotions to saints. But after reading this I was a bit scared for an act of idolatry. Then I remembered that we are asking intercession rather than “worshipping” or praying to them.

My ex-girlfriend actually made this brilliant statement:

“If you say that we are praying to dead people as Necromancy, are you saying that if we die then we’re dead?”

Jesus is a living God. When we die, we live. So we aren’t practising necromancy by any means.
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You’re welcome to the insights. Actually, everything we believe as Christians hinges on the Incarnation. It’s well worth meditating upon.

Your ex-gf was right. Jesus himself told us the dead are not dead but alive with God: Mt. 22[32] `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."
But this would drive some other protestants to think that “it’s safer” to pray just to Jesus and not to other saints. How should a Catholic answer that? By agreeing to that we are essentially agreeing to the protestant belief. By arguing and saying that we must pray to the saints would also give them the ammunition to say “Jesus is the only truth way and light”.
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Thoughts?
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Well, we are not compelled to pray to saints, even to Mary because Jesus is our mediator with the Father. However, the mediation that St. Paul talks about is that of satisfying God’s justice by Jesus offering his sacrifice on the cross to the Father, “once for all”. This means that Jesus’ sacrifice was offered in eternity, and so covers everyone who ever lived, from Adam and Eve to the end of the world–it’s what the OT saints looked forward to and why Jesus went down to “preach to the dead”.

Anyway, we pray to Mary and the saints because they are part of the body of Christ who are alive with God and able to hear our prayers through the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what Jesus meant when he said: John.14[12] “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.” Jesus presenting his finished work of redemption to the Father is what makes the saints able to intercede for us. We also intercede for one another as a part of the body of Christ, even the Protestants acknowledge this. How else are our prayers effective than through the power of the Holy Spirit? For of ourselves, we can do nothing. 🙂
 
If i ask you to pray for me, i don’t believe i am doing anything wrong.
Why can’t i ask Mary?
 
Della said:
You’re welcome to the insights. Actually, everything we believe as Christians hinges on the Incarnation. It’s well worth meditating upon.

Your ex-gf was right. Jesus himself told us the dead are not dead but alive with God: Mt. 22[32] `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living."

Well, we are not compelled to pray to saints, even to Mary because Jesus is our mediator with the Father. However, the mediation that St. Paul talks about is that of satisfying God’s justice by Jesus offering his sacrifice on the cross to the Father, “once for all”. This means that Jesus’ sacrifice was offered in eternity, and so covers everyone who ever lived, from Adam and Eve to the end of the world–it’s what the OT saints looked forward to and why Jesus went down to “preach to the dead”.

Anyway, we pray to Mary and the saints because they are part of the body of Christ who are alive with God and able to hear our prayers through the power of the Holy Spirit. This is what Jesus meant when he said: John.14[12] “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father.” Jesus presenting his finished work of redemption to the Father is what makes the saints able to intercede for us. We also intercede for one another as a part of the body of Christ, even the Protestants acknowledge this. How else are our prayers effective than through the power of the Holy Spirit? For of ourselves, we can do nothing. 🙂
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Sorry not getting back with you at a faster time! Indeed we aren’t required to pray for Saints and as the poster below you under then name of aloysium said “is it a sin for you to ask me to pray for you?”.

Hopefully through the inspirations of the Holy Ghost I’m able to clarify that by showing this scene where Mary pleads to her son to spare the world. Mary (as the guy in my other thread said) portrays a taller figure as she is accompanied by her “child” Mary Magdalene. Mary Magdalene pretty much represents humanity as it is.

And with your insights and inspiration led me to do this work (it’s a movie so click here watch):

Watch Genitrix
Aloysium said:
If i ask you to pray for me, i don’t believe i am doing anything wrong.
Why can’t i ask Mary?
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