How to deal with Catholics who regard Church teaching as merely a suggestion?

[Dannel11]

I have encountered more and more Catholics who regard Catholic teaching as a suggestion, meaning that if they don’t concur, it is okay to live differently and promote your brand of Catholicism. For example, I was speaking to someone recently, whom I would consider to be a very pious Catholic, that felt that abortion was okay if the baby was going to cause a financial hardship for the mother. A different person, also whom I would consider pious, stated that personal use of illegal recreational drugs was okay. In both of these instances the Catechism is very clear, but they just won’t accept it.

My opinion is that if you don’t agree with the Church’s teaching and want to live a different way, that is your choice. However, when you start teaching others either explicitly or by your actions that your way is an acceptable way to live as a Catholic, then I have a problem. Am I off base with this?

At what point would it be responsible for someone to stop identifying themselves as a Catholic when they deviate from Church teaching?

 

[agnes_therese]

At what point would it be responsible for someone to stop identifying themselves as a Catholic when they deviate from Church teaching?

Since (a) there will be a variety of answers to this, and (b) you’re not going to be able to make people stop identifying themselves as Catholic anyway – does an answer to this matter?

 

[Ophelia23]

My dad falls into this category. He is such a good man, he attends daily Mass, he receives the sacrament of Reconciliation regularly, he has a prayer life… and he simply can not understand how any moral issue is greater than helping the poor. Regardless of the candidate’s other beliefs, my dad’s number one ticket item is assisting the poor. That’s a great thing about him, but it certainly conflicts with Church teaching. He will vote in a candidate who is pro-abortion, in support of gay marriage, completely willing an open to embryonic stem-cell research as long as that candidate has better policies with helping the poor.

I understand his opinion. I understand his desire to help the people who are already here. I understand that he doesn’t quite comprehend why the Church’s stance on key issues is so strong. I also understand that I am his daughter, who can love him and disagree with him. Further, I understand that he is Catholic with flawed theology, much like the rest of us in one way or another. I would never dream of cutting him off from our Faith just because he’s doing it wrong. He IS doing it wrong, but there is no hope of changing and doing it right if we were to decide he should no longer be Catholic.

 

[robwar]

There is not much you can really do but pray for them. Realize that they will ultimately answer to God on their views and actions that deviated from the Catholic Church. If someone is pro-abortion and then votes that way or gives advise to someone that it is OK, then they will eventually answer to God for that. Leave these kinds of people in God’s hands. Make sure that you follow the Church and don’t worry about them.

 

[RoseMary131]

Look how sad it is of those in high office in the US government that call themselves Catholic and at the same time promote abortion, with abortion at all times being called a grave evil by the Church.

You can instruct with gentleness and pray that they understand the teachings of the Church as Truth.

You can not make a person believe the Truth.

 

[Dannel11]

(a) there will be a variety of answers to this

There is no Church opinion on this? This is why I am asking the question. I don’t know if there is an official Church teaching or majority opinion on this.

(b) you’re not going to be able to make people stop identifying themselves as Catholic anyway – does an answer to this matter?

Yes, because it allows people to draw the distinction between Catholic or not Catholic. Are you being a good Catholic if you deviate from Church teaching on an issue? If you keep deviating from the Church and eventually your ideology matches a protestant denomination, are you no longer Catholic at that point?

All groups have to have some sort of rule to determine membership. Is the rule in the Catholic Church merely receiving the sacraments of initiation and self-identification?

 

[Seeker1961]

Make sure that there is no Church teaching that you have ever violated in any way, make sure you have never violated a Biblical Commandment in any way in what you have done or failed to do…and then you can sit in judgement about others.

We have no right to condemn a person because they sin differently than we do.

 

[Dannel11]

We have no right to condemn a person because they sin differently than we do.

Who said anything about sin and condemnation? I’m talking about knowingly leading people astray because your opinion personally differs from the Church. Is your opinion to just let it happen?

 

[Richard320]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

This would be my ideal solution.

 

[R_C]

My dad falls into this category. He is such a good man, he attends daily Mass, he receives the sacrament of Reconciliation regularly, he has a prayer life… and he simply can not understand how any moral issue is greater than helping the poor.

Please remember that oppression of the poor worker, of the widow, of the orphan, and of the foreigner are theologically known as sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance. They are not worse than many others: the problem is that these sins (which also include homicide) disrupt the natural order by striking at nature’s root. In the Catechism of St. Pius X we read:

These sins are said to cry to God for vengeance because the Holy Ghost says so, and because their iniquity is so great and so manifest that it provokes God to punish them with the severest chastisements.

Sometimes we adopt a terrible stance: we say that we support a certain candidate because he is against abortion or against same-sex “marriage”. On the other hand, we close our eyes and ears and ignore what the majority of the people know: that that one candidate may not necessarily be the one who will be against oppression of the poor worker, of the foreigner, of the widow and the orphan. Actually, sometimes it’s quite the opposite.

Thus I do understand that we oppose a certain candidate because he supports and promotes intrinsic evils and we try to get elected someone who at least won’t support those intrinsic evils…we are literally choosing the lesser of two evils here…however, what is done against the unborn is only slightly above in the hierarchy over what is done against the poor!

Sometimes it’s hard to support a candidate that will (hopefully) not promote one evil (which ultimately depends on the people and on their lack of moral values) but which may promote other evils (which do directly depend on his work).

 

[R_C]

All groups have to have some sort of rule to determine membership. Is the rule in the Catholic Church merely receiving the sacraments of initiation and self-identification?

I have a hard time dealing with this term: Catholic. I don’t like it. What does it mean?! We are not a denomination!

We are Christians in the Catholic Church, that is what we are. Anyone in the Catholic Church, I guess, can call himself “Catholic”.

The issue here is: are they still Christians if they are not acting according to the teachings of Christ?

 

[RoseMary131]

(a) there will be a variety of answers to this

Every Sunday there are Catholics receiving communion who are missing understanding or not following Church teachings. We gently instruct our friends. The Church does not ask us to take away their “membership”. Once someone is initiated into the Church, we remain forever in the Church even when we sin. Pray those in desent come back into a full belief of the Church. Pray they receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation.

Examples:
Not believing in the REAL Presence of Jesus in the Eucharist
Not attending Mass on Sunday and Holy Days
Premarital sex
Cohabitation
Using birth control
Pornography
Homosexual behavior
Marrying outside the Church
Marrying outside the Church without an annulment when one spouse has been married before

 

[Ophelia23]

Please remember that oppression of the poor worker, of the widow, of the orphan, and of the foreigner are theologically known as sins that cry out to heaven for vengeance. They are not worse than many others: the problem is that these sins (which also include homicide) disrupt the natural order by striking at nature’s root. In the Catechism of St. Pius X we read…

Please let it be known that I absolutely agree with what you have said. I was only trying to state my father’s order of beliefs while emphasizing that he is a good man who should not be kicked out of the Church simply because his understanding is biased so strongly in one arena that all other issues are “not a matter of politics”, as he would say.

 

[rstegeman]

Make sure that there is no Church teaching that you have ever violated in any way, make sure you have never violated a Biblical Commandment in any way in what you have done or failed to do…and then you can sit in judgement about others.

We have no right to condemn a person because they sin differently than we do.

While it is true that we should never judge the person, that does not mean we should ignore the sin. While we are all sinners but we are all members of the body of Christ. As such, we are called to help each other to reach the promised land. If we ignore/remain silent regarding the mortal sins of our brethren, we become complicit in that sin.

As a parent, do you let your children become disobedient without some form of instruction/teaching as to the faults in their actions?

There is a difference in judging a person and teaching about the sinful activity. To tell someone that their opinions on abortion are sinful is not saying that person is evil and deserves to go to hell. Instead, we are enlightening them that they are following the wrong path with the hopes that they see and change their direction.

I’ve seen a quote in many office emails that pertains very well to this. When trying to coordinate/schedule/get approval for some work, the emails will often end with “I will interpret your silence as approval”.

 

[Dannel11]

The Church does not ask us to take away their “membership”.

I’m not advocating ex-communication. The purpose of the question you responded to was to see if there is a visible line that can be crossed.

The intention of all these questions is to determine a way to deal with Judas. When a Catholic tells another Catholic it is okay for them to get an abortion if they are poor, we have a huge problem as a community. How do we deal with that?

 

[JM3]

CCC

vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P62.HTM

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one’s passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church’s authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

 

[fix]

Catholics do not illicitly cooperate with evil. Choosing a candidate that is not totally pro life over one that is vastly more pro abortion is not choosing an evil. It is limiting evil which is choosing a good.

As to the other sins mentioned I have not heard either major candidate support oppressing the poor.

 

[JRKH]

I have encountered more and more Catholics who regard Catholic teaching as a suggestion, meaning that if they don’t concur, it is okay to live differently and promote your brand of Catholicism. For example, I was speaking to someone recently, whom I would consider to be a very pious Catholic, that felt that abortion was okay if the baby was going to cause a financial hardship for the mother. A different person, also whom I would consider pious, stated that personal use of illegal recreational drugs was okay. In both of these instances the Catechism is very clear, but they just won’t accept it.
**
My opinion is that if you don’t agree with the Church’s teaching and want to live a different way, that is your choice. However, when you start teaching others either explicitly or by your actions that your way is an acceptable way to live as a Catholic, then I have a problem. Am I off base with this?**

You are not off base here. It is one thing to discern something privately, it is another thing entirely to teach this to others. Jesus said that those who lead others astray…It would be better that a millstone were tied around their neck and they were cast into the sea - or words to that effect.
So - the best advice you can give to such people is that it would be much better for them to keep their opinion to themselves…

At what point would it be responsible for someone to stop identifying themselves as a Catholic when they deviate from Church teaching?

Tricky question. Can’t really give an answer to that one…

Peace
James

 

[RoseMary131]

I’m not advocating ex-communication. The purpose of the question you responded to was to see if there is a visible line that can be crossed.

The intention of all these questions is to determine a way to deal with Judas. When a Catholic tells another Catholic it is okay for them to get an abortion if they are poor, we have a huge problem as a community. How do we deal with that?

I missed your question before.Sorry.

How do we deal with someone who tells anyone its okay for them to get an abortion if they are poor?

Please, please teach them about post abortion syndrome. A poor mother/father only becomes poorer after the abortion. They suffer for a lifetime for the life they took of their precious child.

When someone can not be reached through the simple: “Thy shall not kill”, we can sometimes reach them when we show abortion for what it really is.

If this person really loves the other, they will share with them what they will get when they “get an abortion”.

Post abortive people have a hard time connecting with others, with a spouse, with their other children. They often turn to drugs, alcohol, and a promiscuous lifestyle. Depression often sets in for years.

If they abort due to money, they most likely love the child but just think they can not afford to have the child. What sorrow they have when they face day after day that they chose to kill the most precious gift given them, their own little baby.

One important thing we need to do in Pro-Life ministry is to educate others as to the trauma that will be suffered after an abortion.

Abortion - one heart stops - the other heart breaks for a lifetime.

Prayer and education - women - poor women deserve more than abortion.

 

[Dannel11]

You are not off base here. It is one thing to discern something privately, it is another thing entirely to teach this to others. Jesus said that those who lead others astray…It would be better that a millstone were tied around their neck and they were cast into the sea - or words to that effect.
So - the best advice you can give to such people is that it would be much better for them to keep their opinion to themselves…

Thank you for your response. When I see this happening, I try to talk to them offline and direct them towards the Catechism. However, most of the time, it doesn’t work because they already know what the Catechism has to say on the subject. They just don’t agree with it.

It’s a tough situation. It makes me want to follow them around all day undoing the damage they are creating in the community, especially when people like that are around RCIA candidates.