How to deal with "Every religion thinks it's the right one"

[Peter_Plato]

…a statement which I’m sure you’ll agree suggests that, if two people disagree on an intuitive matter, or on a matter requiring faith or revelation, then at least one of them isn’t trying hard enough? In other words, at least one person lacks the prerequisite sincerity or devotion?

Logically speaking, if the two views are incompatible, then obviously one or the other, or both, are in error.

Sincerity assumes self-delusion is not at play. Subjective beliefs are complicated beasts and the human psyche is quite capable of deluding and convincing itself regarding sincerity. Unfortunately, it is not possible to get into the groundwork of the individual subjectivity of others to assess where beguilement is at play, but the main point is that revelation, intuition or faith as objective phenomena may not be the issue if the interpretation of these at a subjective level creates the modification.

Or would you instead agree that, if there is such a disagreement, it is really the validity of faith, revelation, and intuition that is being called into question, not the sincerity of individuals?

Those are your only two options. Either faith/revelation/intuition gives consistent answers, and any evidence to the contrary is due to insincerity or incompetence, or they don’t give consistent answers, suggesting they are unreliable. That is the gist of my argument.

They do give consistent answers where faith/revelation/intuition are authentic. That is why public revelation and Church Tradition/Magisterium are requisite for determining authenticity.

 

[Servant19]

Baha’u’lla’h based his religion on Christian teachings just like Muhammad and both are just as wrong as any other man made religion. Christianity received Divine Revelation from God beginning with the Jewish Tradition and their Fathers and Prophets, ending with Jesus Christ. Every religion after that claiming One God or One God and Three Persons has branched off from Christianity. And to the extent they diverge from Christianity to that extent they are false.

Linus2nd

Thankyou for your thoughts dear Linus.

Can you please point me in the correct direction to find where Christian teachings before Baha’u’llah refer to the equality of men and women, the abolition of slavery, the development of a universal auxiliary language, the spiritual solution to economic problems, the essential harmony between science and religion, the abolition of alcohol and drug consumption, the establishment of a global commonwealth of nations?

The Baha’i Faith too, received Divine Revelation from God, the Covenant made between God and human kind is that He will never leave humanity without His guidance, from Age to Age, through the making of the Word into flesh.

Once the Word has been made flesh and His Revelation has been revealed, succession is conferred onto His Chosen Ones whom He appoints to authoritatively carry out His teachings and spread them abroad to all peoples.

This authority ends the moment the Word manifests Itself again on earth. Baha’u’llah is the Word made flesh. He has "descended from heaven again"

It is clearly evident that the Jewish authority of a Single Entity G-d was abolished with the coming of the teaching of a “triune” God. Baha’u’llah has come to establish further understanding of God’s nature.

What evidence of this Truth would you require?



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[Servant19]

So far you have said nothing unique to Bahai. So where does Bahai stand apart, where is it special? I can understand it as a reaction to the bloody violence of Islam, but I don’t see much else there. The " sayings of Baha’u’llah, " fine though they are, are not unique in context.

Linus2nd

Of course, there is a lot to say about the similarities seen in the Word of God revealed from age to age, but each Revelation builds on the previous and advances humanity accordingly and ushers in a new era of material, spiritual and intellectual boom. Each new Revelation brings with it a community significantly advanced from the remainder of the world which lags behind in many aspects.

What the Baha’i Faith brings is a focus on the removal of labelling and the removal of our attachment to, as Baha’u’llah puts it, the kingdom of names.

In the Kingdom of heaven there are no labels, no names. There is no, I am a Christian, I am a Jew, I am a Baha’i. We are ONE. The only thing that exists is the intensity by which the soul is set aflame by the Holy Spirit and the attraction of the soul to the grace showered upon mankind by all the Prophets of God.

“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

• Matt 7:21

When one says “Lord, Lord” they are labelling themselves as “distinguished” from others, whereas God only distinguishes by deeds. It is deeds that will attract the grace of God and enkindle ones soul with the Holy Spirit. What deeds you say?

The deeds as set down by the Prophets of God for the age in which one lives. God has given us the instructions. You follow the instructions you will see the benefits in this world and in the Kingdom of heaven. You can say Lord Jesus, Lord Krishna, or Lord Baha’u’llah all you like, but it means nothing to Jesus, Krishna or Baha’ullah.

In this Day, Baha’u’llah, as the Father, has given humanity the guidance on what deeds will be deemed “the will of the Father”



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[Servant19]

That is not true. The Church teaches that all men may be saved if they have followed their conscience to the best of their lights.

When a Baha’i is earnestly striving to live their lives according to the wonderful, world-embracing, spiritually nourishing and revitalising teachings of Baha’u’llah, I think it can safely be stated that they are “following their conscience to the best of their lights”.

I do not know many true Baha’is, Muslim, Jews etc who do not fall into this category. There are many who fall out of this type of life, but there are equally just as many Catholics who would too fall out of this category (even if they have been baptised)

So I think what the Catholic Church is doing is acknowledging the place “deeds” have in our personal salvation as clearly identified by Jesus in Matthew 7:21

Religions not in union with the Roman Pontiff are not part of God’s plan.

Can you please give me a reference for this. I remember clearly reading in Church Teaching that Muslims are part of Gods Salvation history…

Never the less, those who are members of those religions or of no religion may be saved if they have lived upright lives according to their lights - this requires individual honesty of course. But it is the will of God that all men be united with the Roman Pontiff in faith and in fact.

Linus2nd

Yes it also requires individual honesty by Catholics too.

This is why Baha’u’llah has challenged mankind to study His teachings and see to them forming our daily deeds. It requires “honesty” indeed to reject them…that in no way means that you must become a Baha’i, not at all, it just means that the deeds one carries out in conformity with His teachings are indeed the “will of the Father”



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[Servant19]

“Christians” who commit atrocities do not follow the example and teaching of Christ. Men are not machines!

Indeed dear friend. It is for this reason that men cannot also be the recipients of Teachings which will be eternally binding.

It is for this EXACT reason that the Word becomes flesh from age to age.

As Krishna so aptly put it:

"When righteousness is weak and faints, and unrighteousness exalts in pride, then my Spirit arises on earth. For the salvation of those who are good, and the destruction of evil in men, I come to this world from Age to Age"

God bless you Tony! Hope all is well

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[Aloysium]

. . . It is for this EXACT reason that the Word becomes flesh from age to age.

As Krishna so aptly put it:

"When righteousness is weak and faints, and unrighteousness exalts in pride, then my Spirit arises on earth. For the salvation of those who are good, and the destruction of evil in men, I come to this world from Age to Age" . . . .

In Bhagavad-Gita (4.6) Krishna himself says, “Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all living entities, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.”

The Word became flesh once, but reveals itself throughout history.

Krishna’s existence on earth is more of a mythological event that may have some basis in history and reveals eternal Truth.
Those events would have been more along the lines of Eden, Noah, Abraham, Moses where God makes Himself known in time. Krishna is not Jesus.

 

[Aloysium]

. . . That isn’t evidence. Evidence is reproducible. I could assert that I have an imaginary friend that no one else can detect, as he’s only revealed himself to me. That isn’t an argument, it’s a cop out.

It is interesting that this appears in a discussion with a poster - Peter Plato; my response to your comment is along the lines of the allegory of Plato’s cave: one will not find the sun in shadows cast on a wall.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Thankyou for your thoughts dear Linus.

Can you please point me in the correct direction to find where Christian teachings before Baha’u’llah refer to the equality of men and women, the abolition of slavery, the development of a universal auxiliary language, the spiritual solution to economic problems, the essential harmony between science and religion, the abolition of alcohol and drug consumption, the establishment of a global commonwealth of nations?

The Baha’i Faith too, received Divine Revelation from God, the Covenant made between God and human kind is that He will never leave humanity without His guidance, from Age to Age, through the making of the Word into flesh.

Once the Word has been made flesh and His Revelation has been revealed, succession is conferred onto His Chosen Ones whom He appoints to authoritatively carry out His teachings and spread them abroad to all peoples.

This authority ends the moment the Word manifests Itself again on earth. Baha’u’llah is the Word made flesh. He has "descended from heaven again"

It is clearly evident that the Jewish authority of a Single Entity G-d was abolished with the coming of the teaching of a “triune” God. Baha’u’llah has come to establish further understanding of God’s nature.

What evidence of this Truth would you require?



.

I refer you to the Documents of Vatican 2 for starters, available at most bookstores or at a good library. And of course there are numerous other Documents available on this website and others such as New Advent.com and EWTN library and archives, etc.

Baha’u’llan is on the " Word made flesh. " he is not God’s Divine Son. Do you even understand what that means?

Linus2nd

Linus2nd

 

[Linusthe2nd]

When a Baha’i is earnestly striving to live their lives according to the wonderful, world-embracing, spiritually nourishing and revitalising teachings of Baha’u’llah, I think it can safely be stated that they are “following their conscience to the best of their lights”.

I do not know many true Baha’is, Muslim, Jews etc who do not fall into this category. There are many who fall out of this type of life, but there are equally just as many Catholics who would too fall out of this category (even if they have been baptised)

So I think what the Catholic Church is doing is acknowledging the place “deeds” have in our personal salvation as clearly identified by Jesus in Matthew 7:21

Can you please give me a reference for this. I remember clearly reading in Church Teaching that Muslims are part of Gods Salvation history…

Christ established a Church to which he wanted all men to belong. All men are part of God’s plan of Salvation, but he wanted all to be active members of his Church. That is why he commanded the Apostles to preach the Gospel to all nations.

Yes it also requires individual honesty by Catholics too.

Certainly and I think practicing Catholics have done so.

This is why Baha’u’llah has challenged mankind to study His teachings and see to them forming our daily deeds. It requires “honesty” indeed to reject them…that in no way means that you must become a Baha’i, not at all, it just means that the deeds one carries out in conformity with His teachings are indeed the “will of the Father”

Baha’u’llah was a good man as far as I know, but he had not been adequately exposed to the gospel of Christ, that could hardly have been done in an Islamic state.



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Linus2nd

 

[Oreoracle]

It is interesting that this appears in a discussion with a poster - Peter Plato; my response to your comment is along the lines of the allegory of Plato’s cave: one will not find the sun in shadows cast on a wall.

I assure you that my imaginary friend is no mere shadow or fantasy. He’s right here, plain as day. Well, to me anyway. He doesn’t particularly like you, which is why he hasn’t revealed himself to you. But maybe someday he’ll reveal himself to you and you can be every bit as enlightened as I. Until then, have fun as a captive of Plato’s cave.

 

[Peter_Plato]

I assure you that my imaginary friend is no mere shadow or fantasy. He’s right here, plain as day. Well, to me anyway. He doesn’t particularly like you, which is why he hasn’t revealed himself to you. But maybe someday he’ll reveal himself to you and you can be every bit as enlightened as I. Until then, have fun as a captive of Plato’s cave.

It is interesting that eliminative materialists will deny that a subjective self exists, at least as anything more than an illusion or epiphenomenon. This entails that for some even their very self is an imaginary friend.

Your little allegory can be re-written from the perspective of a ‘self.’

I assure you that my imaginary self is no mere shadow or fantasy. I am right here, plain as day. Well, to me anyway. I don’t particularly like you, which is why I haven’t revealed myself to you. But maybe someday I will reveal myself to you and you can be every bit as enlightened as I. Until then, have fun as a captive in your own Plato’s cave.

What is clearly the case is that where the depth of being we call a “self” is profoundly inexplicable, some merely resort to denial. If I can’t immediately make sense of it, grasp it, weigh it, make it tangible in some way, I will simply deny such a thing exists.

God as infinitely personal is infinitely more susceptible to denial than subjective human existents. Keep this in mind. Denial is a far easier means of dealing with the inscrutable nature of existence - our own and God’s - than a free fall into the abyss of existence.

 

[Oreoracle]

God as infinitely personal is infinitely more susceptible to denial than subjective human existents. Keep this in mind. Denial is a far easier means of dealing with the inscrutable nature of existence - our own and God’s - than a free fall into the abyss of existence.

Are you suggesting that, by being skeptical, I’m somehow taking the easy way out?

 

[Servant19]

I refer you to the Documents of Vatican 2 for starters, available at most bookstores or at a good library. And of course there are numerous other Documents available on this website and others such as New Advent.com and EWTN library and archives, etc.

Baha’u’llan is on the " Word made flesh. " he is not God’s Divine Son. Do you even understand what that means?

Linus2nd

Linus2nd

Hello Linus, thankyou again for your time and courteous dialogue

I did ask for Church teachings BEFORE Baha’u’llah’s Revelation. I actually believe Vatican II is a series of teachings taken straight out of Baha’u’llah’s revelation, not the other way around.

In regards to Baha’u’llah’s station, I’m fully familiar with what “the Son” means, but Baha’u’llah sent the Son to humanity, He is Voice of Sinai and the begetter of the Holy Spirit. He is the Father, Jehovah, The Lord of Hosts.

A thorough study of the Babs life (Baha’u’llah’s forerunner) will acquaint you with Baha’u’llah’s station, since the Bab writes about the magnificence of Baha’u’llah, although they never met, and the Babs life is miraculous, to say the very least.



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[Servant19]

I assure you that my imaginary friend is no mere shadow or fantasy. He’s right here, plain as day. Well, to me anyway. He doesn’t particularly like you, which is why he hasn’t revealed himself to you. But maybe someday he’ll reveal himself to you and you can be every bit as enlightened as I. Until then, have fun as a captive of Plato’s cave.

If you believe this is religion, then you have clearly been “evangelised” by man-made ideas and not the Truth.



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[Servant19]

In Bhagavad-Gita (4.6) Krishna himself says, “Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all living entities, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.”

The Word became flesh once, but reveals itself throughout history.

Krishna’s existence on earth is more of a mythological event that may have some basis in history and reveals eternal Truth.
Those events would have been more along the lines of Eden, Noah, Abraham, Moses where God makes Himself known in time. Krishna is not Jesus.

Yes dear friend, the “form” this Most Great Spirit takes is indeed transcendental. You can observe the transcendence of this Spirit by studying the impact these Divine Beings have had on men. These Divine Beings are not normal human beings by any degree, they are indeed transcendental, Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad…they transcended human boundaries tremendously because people still, to this day, consider all of them means by which they can live a life according to the Will of The Lord.

It is clear that for humanity to know of God on this earthly, physical, material plane, the Spirit must manifest in a physical, material form. The human body is that form. It is why the Spirit COMES TO THIS EARTH from age to age, and when it takes on a flesh form, it gives rise to instant worship of those who are “normal” because these Divine Beings are unique, transcendent, and demonstrate supernatural tendencies.

The quote you provided does not mean that a Spirit comes to earth to shake off the evil in men, it’s a “physical Being” with the Divine power working faultlessly through Him.



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[Servant19]

Christ established a Church to which he wanted all men to belong. All men are part of God’s plan of Salvation, but he wanted all to be active members of his Church. That is why he commanded the Apostles to preach the Gospel to all nations.

Certainly and I think practicing Catholics have done so.

Baha’u’llah was a good man as far as I know, but he had not been adequately exposed to the gospel of Christ, that could hardly have been done in an Islamic state.



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Linus2nd

Dear friend, Baha’u’llah REVEALED the Gospel to Jesus, revealed the Quran to Muhammad. (Read my signature below . )

He never needed to read a book. He revealed the Kitab-i-Iqan in 2 days and in it He quotes the Gospel and the Quran at will.

He is animated by the Most Great Spirit, and He begets the Holy Spirit. Every inspiration and revelation from the beginning of time was from Him.

He didn’t need to read the Gospel

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[Linusthe2nd]

Hello Linus, thankyou again for your time and courteous dialogue

I did ask for Church teachings BEFORE Baha’u’llah’s Revelation. I actually believe Vatican II is a series of teachings taken straight out of Baha’u’llah’s revelation, not the other way around.

Really, what makes you think that? If that isn’t good enough, you can read earlier Church documents or even the New Testament.

In regards to Baha’u’llah’s station, I’m fully familiar with what “the Son” means, but Baha’u’llah sent the Son to humanity, He is Voice of Sinai and the begetter of the Holy Spirit. He is the Father, Jehovah, The Lord of Hosts.

You must be thinking of a different personage than what is discussed in Wikipedia, " Mírzá Ḥusayn-`Alí Núrí (Persian: میرزا حسینعلی نوری‎), was the founder of the Bahá’í Faith. He claimed to be the prophetic fulfilment of Bábism, a 19th-century outgrowth of Shí‘ism,[1] but in a broader sense claimed to be a messenger from God referring to the fulfilment of the eschatological expectations of Islam, Christianity, and other major religions.[2]

Bahá’u’lláh taught that humanity is one single race and that the age has come for its unification in a global society. He taught that “there is only one God, that all of the world’s religions are from God, and that now is the time for humanity to recognize its oneness and unite.” [3] His claim to divine revelation resulted in persecution and imprisonment by the Persian and Ottoman authorities, and his eventual 24-year confinement in the prison city of `Akka, Palestine (present-day Israel), where he died. He wrote many religious works, most notably the Kitáb-i-Aqdas and the Kitáb-i-Íqán. "

Certainly nothing " divine " about him. And how could a mere human " beget " the Holy Spirit?
Father or Son - sounds awfully confused to me.

A thorough study of the Babs life (Baha’u’llah’s forerunner) will acquaint you with Baha’u’llah’s station, since the Bab writes about the magnificence of Baha’u’llah, although they never met, and the Babs life is miraculous, to say the very least.

.

Well, it is likely to be as unbelievable as the claims you make about Baha’u’llah, so I’ll pass.
I have a Bahai’ friend and he is just as confused as you are. Nothing he says makes any sense either.

Linus2nd

 

[Aloysium]

. . . Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad…they transcended human boundaries tremendously because people still, to this day, consider all of them means by which they can live a life according to the Will of The Lord. . . . It is why the Spirit COMES TO THIS EARTH from age to age, and when it takes on a flesh form, it gives rise to instant worship of those who are “normal” because these Divine Beings are unique, transcendent, and demonstrate supernatural tendencies. . . …

You are distorting revelation to make it suit man-made beliefs.
The Word, I would agree, reveals itself in history. Jesus is the one time the Word became man.
Many have spoken of the way; He is the Way.
I do not believe that Hindu teachings are historical; they speak more to ontological and psychological realities. I think Joseph Campbell, who never understood Christianity, shines when he discusses these, among other, myths.

 

[Linusthe2nd]

Linus2nd

Dear friend, Baha’u’llah REVEALED the Gospel to Jesus, revealed the Quran to Muhammad. (Read my signature below . )

That isn’t the way Wikipedia explains it. The story gets bigger and bigger, what fantisy is next.

He never needed to read a book. He revealed the Kitab-i-Iqan in 2 days and in it He quotes the Gospel and the Quran at will.

Yes, that is pretty fantastic. I can see why the Shiites put him in prison. ( not that I approve of putting dimented people in prison, but I can see how he would up set them. )

He is animated by the Most Great Spirit, and He begets the Holy Spirit. Every inspiration and revelation from the beginning of time was from Him.

Well, this is too much to swallow, how have you managed to do it?

He didn’t need to read the Gospel .

I see. I can see why my friend is so confused.

Linus2nd

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

This comes up SO often for me when discussing religion with non-believers. They always eventually go to the “Well every religion thinks it’s right and all the others are wrong!”… For me it’s hard to keep the conversation going after that. It’s like, yeah they do, but why does that stop you from finding your own truth?

Any advice for how to deal with it when this is brought up? How can I kind of elevate Christianity/Catholicism above all of the “other” religions that would swear they are the truth?

Good Evening Next Element: The problem is that there are a lot of people from a lot of different religions trying to elevate what they believe over what you believe. This includes atheists as well, as they have their own religion or belief system, replete with its own dogmas. And there is no definitive way for any in the bunch to convince the others that what they have is the truth while everyone else simply has beliefs. Because they’re all beliefs. And which one each of us subscribes to is largely a matter of culture, upbringing, sometimes indoctrination from an early age, sometimes the individuals ability to reason, life experience and personal relationships and affiliations.

The solace I would offer is that each of us is likely converging on a common point from different entrance ramps from different highways. Similarly, I would offer that we are all clicking on different icons using different operating systems and different devices such as notebooks, laptops, tablets and towers, however they are all reaching the same program. Because at the end of the day, it would appear that there is only one God. But the one God is experienced in different ways by different people, and seen in many ways as well as called by many names. Jesus said that He is the vine and we are the branches. The vine has many branches, and they reach in many directions. But the vine and the branches are not different things. They are the same thing expressed as many. All are rooted in the vine, and the vine is manifest in every branch.

Thank you,
Gary