How to deal with those "What if" thoughts?

[SophiaLector]

Do I have some hidden agenda? Are there any misconceptions as to whether or not I’m Catholic? No.

My point about being satisfied with truth is meant to encourage being satisfied with the conclusion met by reason, and ***without partiality ***to which conclusion each person’s brand of reason appeals.

If by ‘stand it’ you mean to say that I can’t deal with it intellectually, as it confounds my sense of what’s true, or emotionally, as it contradicts my personal beliefs, then certainly I haven’t indicated that this is the case (and, as such, it isn’t the case). But if by ‘stand it,’ you mean allow people to proffer half-baked rationalizations about Religion’s problems and oppositions, then you’re right. If I think I’ve gained some insight into why such rationalizations aren’t effective or truthful, I’ll probably want to communicate them.

It’s interesting that you consider this to be my mindset. Most people assume the opposite - that I’m unfairly sharpening my teeth on believers for sport. Neither is true, in fact. I feel almost compelled to offer other motives as to why this claim is false, but I have a feeling you don’t particularly believe this about me anyway.

In what way do you love me - someone so obviously antithesis to you’re position - someone you see as being a contentious liar? Honestly, these are the things that baffle me about Christianity. You might love me to the extent that you wish me the best (that I live free of harm or adopt your dogmatic views), but you don’t have any grounds on which to love me in the way that would warrant suggesting it.

Your anti-religious views and dismissal of God and His followers as fools following foolishness are obvious to the reader in nearly every line of your commentary, here and on other threads to which you’ve posted. I simply wanted to know why it vexes you so much that we don’t agree with you but still seem to be happy and at peace. You’ve said as much with your comments about “logic” and “dogma”-- in your view with the former always superior to, and mutually exclusive from, the latter.

I won’t go so far as to claim that you have no peace. I don’t know your soul. To insist as much is silly. Your believing as an Agnostic or an Atheist is your business, as as long as you do no harm. But on this and other threads you have made it clear that you think Catholic dogma is nonsense and you encourage others to believe as you do. For you to suggest otherwise is untruthful.

And we are – or at least I am – here to love you. By which I mean in concern for you, your soul (whether you think it exists or not) and having a respectful dialogue about spirituality and theology if you would like to have one. Not becuase I know you or even agree with you, but because I believe God made you with as much Love and Care as He made me, and as such you merit the love of the rest of humanity – whether we agree or not. That’s a Catholicism 101.

But these ideals can hardly get off the ground if you’re dismissive of them or of the people trying to have them with you.

 

[brap]

But why people claim physical evidence? God could say: “Tah, dah! Here I am, look at me, I really exist” and all the doubts would vanish. But it does not work in this way and we must not demand physical proofs in order to believe. If we seek for Him and we pray for the gift of faith, He will grant us.
“Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” Jesus said to Thomas.

Anna, faith is what Jesus said and faith is what we all have. You, me and the so called Voice of Reason. It is where that faith lays that differ. Voice of Reason cannot claim that his point of view is any more correct then ours because he believes there is no god (show me god!) or can we (show me creation!).

 

[RedSoxFan]

So your liberation comes from your soul being at rest. I have to wonder - in what way is a soul rested or tormented, as humans can experience it? Surely I, a non-Catholic, must have a soul that is rife with turmoil, and yet I would never know it; the soul, if it exists, must surely have no mechanism in the human mind or body through which it perceives. If it did, then I wouldn’t be numb to it’s waning and pining and toiling or whathaveyou.

You [Catholics] must be able to see my difficulty in buying into such metaphysical contrivances.

There is a intimate connection between the soul and the corporal body. You’re just not aware of it yet. A soul is rested when it is in the loving embrace of God commonly thought of as “grace.” A soul is tormented when it is outside of God’s embrace of grace.

Lack of grace inherently deadens awareness of sin or even the reality of the soul.

I see the difficulty of buying into a metaphysical notions of the soul when one isn’t aware of it’s existence because of inability to perceive it.

 

[Anna1]

I won’t go so far as to claim that you have no peace. I don’t know your soul. To insist as much is silly.
.

I do not know his soul either, but I go that far.
If an atheist writes that he has reached peace by rejecting God and religion, I reply to him that I do not believe it not even for a second.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

Very occassionally I will get those What If feelings. What If all those Atheists you see in the media and in your college science department and who jump out of nowhere whenever anybody says anything remotely religious are correct in there may be nothing after we die. It is a scary thought. I do believe in God, and wich you build my faith even more. When you guys get those feelings or thoughts, how do you best deal with them? I admit I am an imperfect human.

its ok to have some doubt. we are after all limited human beings, there are things we dont understand.

what is it that they say that has you concerned?

 

[Prodigal_Son]

Some lyrics for you (by Jon Foreman):

And here tonight while the stars are blacking out
With every hope and dream I’ve ever had in doubt
I’ve spent ten years trying to sing these doubts away
But the water keeps on falling from my eyes

And heaven knows, heaven knows
I tried to find a cure for the pain
Oh my Lord, to suffer like You do
It would be a lie to run away

There are two options: suffering is meaningful, or suffering is not meaningful. If suffering is not meaningful, then all consolation is hollow, for we are not a part of any story that will resolve for us. But why should we believe that suffering is not meaningful? Such a belief is self-defeating.

All meaning has a context. The context of the meaning of our universe is the life of God. To doubt God’s existence is natural, but His nonexistence entails ultimate meaninglessness. When we wonder about God, we wonder about the significance of ourselves. This doubt is important, because doubt of this kind is a prerequisite for true faith.

Faith is not belief, but trust. But trust is only meaningful because we lack complete knowledge. When we know fully, as we are fully known, the era of trust will be over, because our trust has been verified.

Consider the man who trusts in God. When will he be disappointed? He will never be disappointed, certainly not in any ultimate sense. If God exists, He will be home forever, forever loved. If God does not exist, he will never for a moment know that he was wrong.

 

[pcg2]

Very occassionally I will get those What If feelings. What If all those Atheists you see in the media and in your college science department and who jump out of nowhere whenever anybody says anything remotely religious are correct in there may be nothing after we die. It is a scary thought. I do believe in God, and wich you build my faith even more. When you guys get those feelings or thoughts, how do you best deal with them? I admit I am an imperfect human.

Hi,

I (and I’m sure very many people) go through the same things as you But through prayer, I’ve come to realize that these moments of “doubt” are not really doubt at all, at least not in the traditional sense of the word. From what you’ve written, it doesn’t sound like you are trying to doubt, these are just honest questions/concerns you have about your faith, and it’s during these moments that you have a difficult time reconciling your faith with reason. This is a wonderful thing!!! Realize that during these moments, God is actually blessing us. He is testing our faith. He is training us to rely on our faith during times of uncertainty - to rely on our hearts instead of our intellect. If our faith is never tested, is it really faith at all? If we just blindly believed everything about our faith without asking questions, and felt guilty after every moment of uncertainty, we would never be trained to rely on our faith. God knows that it makes us feel good to “feel like we know all the answers.” In reality, we don’t - no one has and no one ever will. When God throws something at us that we can’t grasp intellectually, He is training us to depend on our relationship with Him and the love He has for us to get us through it. Ironically, it is this “doubting” of our faith that actually strengthens it!

Please know that you are not alone, and that you should NEVER stop questioning. It is not prideful to feel confident in your faith, but during moments that we don’t feel comfortable and have these spiritual “confusions,” it is only a blessing from God calling us to grow in a deeper relationship with Him, and a profound opportunity to learn more about the faith He has given us You are in my prayers

 

[Schn]

How nice to know that the ultimate scope of my life is to fertilize the soil…

Is your life so devoid of happiness that you must have an ultimate scope?

But why people claim physical evidence? God could say: “Tah, dah! Here I am, look at me, I really exist” and all the doubts would vanish. But it does not work in this way and we must not demand physical proofs in order to believe. If we seek for Him and we pray for the gift of faith, He will grant us.
“Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” Jesus said to Thomas.

Seems pretty malicious if he’s playing a game where people who don’t believe in him burn forever in a lake of fire yet he does not appear to people in a scientifically observable manner.

There is a intimate connection between the soul and the corporal body. You’re just not aware of it yet. A soul is rested when it is in the loving embrace of God commonly thought of as “grace.” A soul is tormented when it is outside of God’s embrace of grace.

Lack of grace inherently deadens awareness of sin or even the reality of the soul.

I see the difficulty of buying into a metaphysical notions of the soul when one isn’t aware of it’s existence because of inability to perceive it.

How do you know? Have you done some original research I’m not aware of? What journal did you publish in?

I do not know his soul either, but I go that far.
If an atheist writes that he has reached peace by rejecting God and religion, I reply to him that I do not believe it not even for a second.

How discriminative. You might not like it if I were to say that all Catholics are intellectually unfulfilled, yet you would do something similar.

 

[RedSoxFan]

Experience, yes and no journals. If you want to find journals there are plenty to look from without contacting those discussing in a forum.

 

[Schn]

Experience, yes and no journals. If you want to find journals there are plenty to look from without contacting those discussing in a forum.

My personal experience states that the Vulcans have been kidnapping children since 1973. I assume it is equally as reliable as yours.

 

[RedSoxFan]

My personal experience states that the Vulcans have been kidnapping children since 1973. I assume it is equally as reliable as yours.

Nope. There difference is that your experience is a lie, while mine is not.

 

[Anna1]

Is your life so devoid of happiness that you must have an ultimate scope?

Yes, the natural happiness attainable in this world cannot satisfy the yearning for infinite that there is in my heart. I aspire to this infinite happiness. I leave all the pleasures of this world to you, I am not jealous.

Seems pretty malicious if he’s playing a game where people who don’t believe in him burn forever in a lake of fire yet he does not appear to people in a scientifically observable manner.

God is infinite Love and Wisdom. Malicious men refuse Him and end up in a lake of fire because of their own choice

How discriminative. You might not like it if I were to say that all Catholics are intellectually unfulfilled, yet you would do something similar.

Actually, if God tolerates you, I can do that, too.

 

[Schn]

Yes, the natural happiness attainable in this world cannot satisfy the yearning for infinite that there is in my heart. I aspire to this infinite happiness. I leave all the pleasures of this world to you, I am not jealous.

You do not make the most of now in the hope that after death there will be infinite happiness. Really? I heard infinite happiness can be kinda boring.

God is infinite Love and Wisdom. Malicious men refuse Him and end up in a lake of fire because of their own choice

Qutie an absolutist, this God. Either with him or against him, no neutral, right? What was that quote from star wars about the sith.

Actually, if God tolerates you, I can do that, too.

What was that bit about not judging others and loving neighbours?

 

[Anna1]

You do not make the most of now in the hope that after death there will be infinite happiness. Really? I heard infinite happiness can be kinda boring.

Qutie an absolutist, this God. Either with him or against him, no neutral, right? What was that quote from star wars about the sith.

What was that bit about not judging others and loving neighbours?

**MY GOD, I believe, I adore, I trust, and I love Thee!
I ask pardon for for those who do not believe,
do not adore, do not trust and do not love Thee. **

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

I would say that humans experience a torment of the soul as the awareness that one is acting in a way that is pleasing, yet feels that he ought not to be doing so. The will of the person becomes involved in a tug-of-war between two opposing wills

It’s called cognitive dissonance, and there’s nothing metaphysical about it. It happens to everyone over various things, and it’s socialized. You gave the example of masturbation with God being the other tug-of-war force. Let me give you an example that doesn’t involve the soul: a person knows smoking is bad, yet doesn’t make great strides in quitting. Nothing supernatural (and neither with anything else)

The fact that we are indecisive or at ends with ourselves is proof of our caprice and fickle-nature, not a soul

He reveals Himself to those who seek Him with a sincere heart, something the atheists cannot understand.

And who is the author of that sincere or insincere heart with which we expedition to find God - or not?

your life will be ultimately meaningless in the grand scheme of the universe.

There is not more or less meaning for a God-created world than a godless world (i.e., there is no more meaning in eternity than can be found temporally).

Ah, that makes me feel better.

That’s the problem with so many belief systems; they’re aimed at feeling better. I’d rather deal with an ugly truth than a beautiful lie.

peace in your heart

What does that mean though? Can you even describe what peace in your heart is? The heart pumps blood. If you think that the heart does something else, you’d better explain how it does so, because that’s not a very intuitive thing to assert.

Thank you for teaching me what the Christian journey entails. I have had my share of doubts but now I do not have anymore so that I can firmly contradict atheists everytime I meet them.

With all due respect, if you don’t still have doubts, then you’re probably not thinking very hard about your faith. And it’s not as if merely contradicting atheists prooves your case; the case, itself should actually be a convincing one.

I like to think that those people who think that like somehow we got here by chance will someday find the Great Pyramids or the Empire State Building (constructed by chance) on some distant planet, The improbabilty of which seems to me much less great then having life on this earth.

You’re assuming design to assume a creator. Chance and Probability are not the same thing. The state of humanity as it is today would be completely improbable as a single event coming from nothing, but the cumulative process of matter organizing itself into higher (thus, more stable) structures is only slightly, but not prohibitively, improbable.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Your anti-religious views and dismissal of God and His followers as fools following foolishness are obvious to the reader in nearly every line of your commentary, here and on other threads to which you’ve posted. I simply wanted to know why it vexes you so much that we don’t agree with you but still seem to be happy and at peace. You’ve said as much with your comments about “logic” and “dogma”-- in your view with the former always superior to, and mutually exclusive from, the latter.

Often logic is superior, but not always mutually exclusive from, dogma (i.e., logic can bring us to many of the same conclusions that are contained within dogmatic tracts); dogmatic tracts don’t always lend themselves to logic. And I certainly don’t think that religious folk are fools (I used to be one). I do recognize, however, how poerful erroneous thinking can be (I don’t have to summarize a list of all the things believed throughout history for which you, yourself, don’t subscribe).

But on this and other threads you have made it clear that you think Catholic dogma is nonsense and you encourage others to believe as you do. For you to suggest otherwise is untruthful.

Correct.

And we are – or at least I am – here to love you. By which I mean in concern for you, your soul (whether you think it exists or not) and having a respectful dialogue about spirituality and theology if you would like to have one. Not becuase I know you or even agree with you, but because I believe God made you with as much Love and Care as He made me, and as such you merit the love of the rest of humanity – whether we agree or not. That’s a Catholicism 101.

You’re taking one thing and calling it another. Concern is not love. Believing God created me, isn’t love for me on your part. It’s a lot of hammy religious sentimentality without any evidence. I know the people that love me (I mean, really love me), and it’s not what you’re describing.

But these ideals can hardly get off the ground if you’re dismissive of them or of the people trying to have them with you.

I would never dismiss a person. I dismiss certain ideas though, like anyone.

Anna, faith is what Jesus said and faith is what we all have. You, me and the so called Voice of Reason. It is where that faith lays that differ. Voice of Reason cannot claim that his point of view is any more correct then ours because he believes there is no god (show me god!) or can we (show me creation!).

I don’t have faith the way you’re describing it; besides, I think that it makes things fuzzy to say that I do. Certainly, you agree that some ideas are better than others? I simply don’t think metaphysical ideas are well-grounded ones. But there’s no reason to call it faith. Why not, then, call everything that can be thought of, faith? On second thought, why use the term at all if it’s simply the confidence people place in their own beliefs. It’s redundant and manipulative.

There is a intimate connection between the soul and the corporal body. You’re just not aware of it yet. A soul is rested when it is in the loving embrace of God commonly thought of as “grace.” A soul is tormented when it is outside of God’s embrace of grace.

Lack of grace inherently deadens awareness of sin or even the reality of the soul.

I see the difficulty of buying into a metaphysical notions of the soul when one isn’t aware of it’s existence because of inability to perceive it.

You’re describing things about the soul, not ways in which we can be aware of it. If my soul is tormented, how would I ever know? People keep giving me obscure and contriving language because they can’t articulate in plain speech how such beliefs can be maintained in good reason.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

I do not know his soul either, but I go that far.
If an atheist writes that he has reached peace by rejecting God and religion, I reply to him that I do not believe it not even for a second.

Why don’t you believe it? I’m fulfilled, and satisfied; I live a very privileged life (as most of us do in North America). Why should it be said of me that I have no peace?

Some lyrics for you (by Jon Foreman):

There are two options: suffering is meaningful, or suffering is not meaningful. If suffering is not meaningful, then all consolation is hollow, for we are not a part of any story that will resolve for us. But why should we believe that suffering is not meaningful? Such a belief is self-defeating.

Attributions of meaning or meaninglessness neither proove, nor suggest anything further than your own well-wishing or dispare.

Faith is not belief, but trust. But trust is only meaningful because we lack complete knowledge. When we know fully, as we are fully known, the era of trust will be over, because our trust has been verified.

It’s perfectly reasonable to trust that someone has the answers (like a child does his or her parents), but how much sense does it make to trust that first, there is such a person, and second, that It is trying steadfastly to communicate to you through imperfect people and shabby omens?

Consider the man who trusts in God. When will he be disappointed? He will never be disappointed, certainly not in any ultimate sense. If God exists, He will be home forever, forever loved. If God does not exist, he will never for a moment know that he was wrong.

Think about what you’re suggesting. You’re essentially saying that a person that believes in God can never be disappointed because that person is so tenacious, that he will carry his belief to the grave with him, never knowing!

It’s not about being disappointed, it’s about holding beliefs that makes sense or don’t. I start to wonder how thick other peoples’ faiths are when arguments for the existence of God turn into logical bargains for believing in Him. That’s what always happens; everyone concocts their own little wager to feel safely nested into improbable, but irresistable choices of belief.

 

[Voice_of_Reason_1]

Realize that during these moments, God is actually blessing us. He is testing our faith. He is training us to rely on our faith during times of uncertainty - to rely on our hearts instead of our intellect. If our faith is never tested, is it really faith at all?

When I was a believer, I use to take so much solace in these explanations. I would say “Oh! I had never thought before that doubt was a function of God as well!” But these inner dialogues became tired very quickly, and those “What if” thoughts became attatched to, not only questions about God, but questions about my rationalizations. If someone is wondering “What if the atheists are right,” then rationalizations tend to, after some time, lose their steam.

Seems pretty malicious if he’s playing a game where people who don’t believe in him burn forever in a lake of fire yet he does not appear to people in a scientifically observable manner.

Exactly. When you state things like they truly are, it’s like a breath of fresh air - the elixir of life itself!

Yes, the natural happiness attainable in this world cannot satisfy the yearning for infinite that there is in my heart. I aspire to this infinite happiness. I leave all the pleasures of this world to you, I am not jealous.

You don’t think that the pleasures of this world bring happiness? I don’t mean to the point of scurilitiy or glut - but just the enjoyment of everyday everything (taking in the fresh air, admiring beauty in the world, dining on succulent things, love-making, laughter, and good company).

God is infinite Love and Wisdom. Malicious men refuse Him and end up in a lake of fire because of their own choice

Why, oh why, did God make Anna a better chooser than I? That I could only be under his partial, loving hand!

**MY GOD, I believe, I adore, I trust, and I love Thee!
I ask pardon for for those who do not believe,
do not adore, do not trust and do not love Thee. **

When is the prayer suppose to kick in? I don’t feel anything yet.

 

[Luke_K]

It’s called cognitive dissonance, and there’s nothing metaphysical about it. It happens to everyone over various things, and it’s socialized. You gave the example of masturbation with God being the other tug-of-war force. Let me give you an example that doesn’t involve the soul: a person knows smoking is bad, yet doesn’t make great strides in quitting. Nothing supernatural (and neither with anything else)

The fact that we are indecisive or at ends with ourselves is proof of our caprice and fickle-nature, not a soul

It sounds like you’re arguing semantics. What’s the difference between our nature and our soul? How can a person have cognitive dissonance if he doesn’t have the free will to choose either way? If he was just a sack of chemicals following physical laws, there wouldn’t be any struggle to choose what seems most right. Whatever he did would just be the result of which choice released the most dopamine in his brain, for example. You haven’t explained why a person feels that he ought to do something contrary to his desires. You’ve just stated a term of psychology that describes what happens.

 

[StillWondering]

If the atheists are right, then there is no deeper meaning to any actions I take besides who it effects the world for the next 20-20 years (if it’s a major event such as blowing up a power plant). Since that is the case, I might as well just take my own life if there is nothing worth living for. So what if I have 20 years of gratuitous sex and pleasure. What’s the point if there is nothing more than that. Now then I would just go kill myself, but since there is a part of me that yearns for greater, has hope, has love, and tells me there is something more. (Obviously there is since I have not killed myself.) Then I conclude that the atheist claim is false.

There are atheists that live happily and think nothing more. I would feel they have not thought deeply enough. No matter what mental process I take, there is no way I can understand a purpose in existing if our existence will pass away after 100 years. Being immortalize in books or on stone is meaningless. The earth has been around for nearly six billion years, whatever my short life span my accomplish is meaningless if this natural world is all there is. So what if we have a nuclear war and destroy the earth in that case. The universe will continue unaware. The super black hole at the center of the Andromeda galaxy is still going to swallow our own galaxy up in two trillion years. The earth would be destroyed anyways. If the world is only this natural existence, nothing we do matters. Absolutely nothing.

But I am sure you, the OP, must feel there are things that matters. How could something so simple has the tiny fingers of a newborn matter if the world is purely a natural and random existence. In every smile of a love one, in every hug from my darling family, and in every glace at the Eucharist–I know, I know in the deepest reaches of my soul that I have a soul and that the universe has meaning. That my life has meaning. And I praise to the Almighty Lord as long as I exists that He loves me so much and gives me life.