How to decide between 'liberal' and 'conservative' Catholicism.

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I’m doing RCIA, at what I have come to understand is–for lack of a better phrase–a ‘liberal’ parish. My trouble is, some of what has been stated there is at odds with the concept of Catholicism I have previously absorbed from a variety of sources: namely, attending mass for four years (and briefly attending RCIA) at a more ‘conservative’ parish, conversations with my cradle Catholic girlfriend, and various online readings. What I’d like to ask for is guidance on how to resolve these conflicts.

Some examples to give you an idea of what I mean by ‘liberal’:
  • One catechist suggested that the Christmas story wasn’t meant to be understood as historically true. He found it implausible that a about-to-give-birth Mary actually traveled 80 miles on a donkey from Nazareth to Bethlehem, for instance. For Catholics, however, what matters is merely the moral truth imparted by this story.
  • One catechist (a priest, actually) stated that he believed God might give people a second chance after they die to redeem themselves before they go to hell. And that we didn’t know for sure whether anybody actually was in hell.
  • It was suggested hardly anybody commits mortal sins. Mortal sins are only when you deliberately choose to reject God (as opposed to merely succumbing to temptation and commiting an act you know is wrong.)
  • It was suggested that there really ought to be women priests.
  • One catechist stated that, what really matters ultimately is only your relationship with God, and if you personally found you thrived spiritually in another (non-Catholic) faith community, that was perfectly valid.
  • During a discussion of “what does Catholicism offer that other faiths do not,” upon me asking “doesn’t Catholicism teach that the pope and the bishops have an authority to declare what doctrines are true and what doctrines are false that Protestant denominations do not—on a level equivalent with the Bible?” several of the catechists (including a priest) responded “no!” in shock. “Not even when the pope declares that Mary was assumed into heaven?” “Well…but that has only happened like three times.”
Most of these ideas seem to conflict with what I have read in the catechism, or what I have come to understand as ‘orthodox’ Catholicism. I’m not so much interested in discussing these matters individually here—I am sure there are discussions elsewhere on this forum. The last in my list, though, gets at what I think the underlying difference is. Outside of this RCIA program, I have understood e.g. the Catechism and the various encyclicals to be an authoritative outline of a fairly narrow range of acceptable, ‘official’ Catholic doctrine. The leaders of my RCIA program apparently view the range of acceptable Catholic doctrine as somewhat broader, and either do not admit as much authority to the Pope and body of bishops that produced these documents, or interpret their writings very differently.

I’m asking for guidance into how can I decide which idea to accept as I am still trying to sort things out? I do know that the Pope and bishops claim for themselves the ability to obligate Catholics to submit to their teachings with (at least) “religious assent.” But why should I accept (or reject) their claim? Are there scriptural arguments for them having this authority? Is there a long tradition of popes and bishops claiming such authority, or is it a recent invention?

My inclination (you probably can tell) is to accept the ‘narrow range of acceptable doctrine’ view, although I am not yet firmly convinced. But supposing that this view is correct, what then should I do at RCIA?

I could challenge them the next time something comes up that seems misaligned with the catechism. But I am afraid that would trigger a very ‘academic’ and possibly heated discussion, and I’m not sure how useful that would be. I do have a lot of respect for the catechists generally, and they have provided wonderful instruction and discussion about uncontroversial doctrines and practical matters like prayer, Bible-reading, the liturgy, the sacraments, etc. On the other hand, I get somewhat indignant when they teach these views as if they are the orthodox teachings of the Church, when (as I understand it) they are not. But what authority do I have to say anything? I’m not even Catholic yet. Anyway, if any Catholics have any advice or insight, I would appreciate it.
 
Run, don’t walk, away from this program. Teaching you such inaccurate information is itself grave matter!

Not all of what you’ve written is necessarily wrong wholesale (i.e. the infancy narratives do have some holes in them and they weren’t written foremost as history the way we write history accounts… That doesn’t mean they aren’t historical).

But even those things that are not outright wrong have been presented in a troubling manner that easily confuses those not very far along in their inquiry.

Of particular concern is what you relay regarding Particular Judgment and ordination-- those things flatly cotradict doctrine.

Is there no other RCIA in your area?

I would say bring this to the pastor, but it sounds as if he is in fact presenting some of this misinformation.
 
Thank the Lord for your conversion. RCIA is often a frustrating process, I am fortunate to have met a very orthodox priest who I worked with one on one. It’s great that you are using the Catechism of the Catholic Church. This was promulgated under Pope St. John Paul II and is an excellent tool to have at your disposal.

Prayer is the key in all of this. If you are concerned that someone is teaching you an error, pray especially for them. Pray that you will be able to discern. Easter is just around the corner, so you won’t be in RCIA forever.

Our goal as Catholics is to become saints. It’s not about scoring political points, being conservative or liberal, or really anything else. Getting into heaven is our highest priority. Some priests say that nothing is really a sin, pray for them. Some priests want to help you stay out of mortal in, pray for them. Some priests want to make you a full blown saint, pray for them.

We live in an age where there is a lot of confusion, but there are great resources to help you make sure you’re on track. If you’re confident that there are errors in your RCIA class, take notes and then check out resources like Catholic.com. If your goal is to understand and accept the truths of the faith that God reveals to His Church, and if you continue to pray, you will surely find your way. I will be praying for you!
 
Also, there is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative”. Catholicism. There is only faithful to the Magesterium or not faithful to the Magesterium.
 
1ke said:
Run, don’t walk, away from this program. Teaching you such inaccurate information is itself grave matter!

Not all of what you’ve written is necessarily wrong wholesale (i.e. the infancy narratives do have some holes in them and they weren’t written foremost as history the way we write history accounts… That doesn’t mean they aren’t historical).

But even those things that are not outright wrong have been presented in a troubling manner that easily confuses those not very far along in their inquiry.

Of particular concern is what you relay regarding Particular Judgment and ordination-- those things flatly cotradict doctrine.

Is there no other RCIA in your area?

I would say bring this to the pastor, but it sounds as if he is in fact presenting some of this misinformation.
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:yup:
 
As 1ke has mentioned, find a new parish.

Also, it’s not liberal vs conservative Catholics… It’s orthodox vs heterodox.

From what you describe, that parish sounds heterodox. A parish can become heterodox when it has a very heretical priest who allows the heretical parisheneors to gain key positions in the parish council, ministries, etc., effectively driving the orthodox out or letting them “die out”
 
If I were you, I would stick closely to the Catechism. It contains the truth of the church.
If you are able to find a more orthodox RCIA, that would be ideal. If you can’t, as a previous poster said, Easter is not far away.
I was confirmed as an adult in a church nearby, but then switched after Easter, because of some issues. We attended a church 5 miles away instead of two.
I believe that it’s true that the Popes have rarely spoken ex cathedra, and sometimes councils have (the Council of Nicea). So there may be some miscommunication going on at RCIA.
It sounds like you are knowledgeable enough to spot their errors (women priests, switching to a non-Catholic religion is okay – not!). It is a shame they are misleading others, however, so you might do well to mention “The Catechism doesn’t teach that,” when they speak in error.
God bless.

.
 
1ke said:
Also, there is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative”. Catholicism. There is only faithful to the Magesterium or not faithful to the Magesterium.
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While oft-repeated, this is nonsense. It implies that all those faithful to the Magesterium are clones without differences in outlook, practice, etc.
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twizzard:
But what authority do I have to say anything? I’m not even Catholic yet.
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Well, if it’s Church teaching it’s Church teaching - that’s pretty good authority, assuming you can back it up with sources.
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twizzard:
I could challenge them the next time something comes up that seems misaligned with the catechism. But I am afraid that would trigger a very ‘academic’ and possibly heated discussion, and I’m not sure how useful that would be.
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Your approach shows wisdom and maturity. Unlike CAF, RCIA is not the place for endless academic debates. On the other hand, discussion is one of the ways that you and others can better understand the faith you are seeking to embrace. Sometimes it may be useful to interject, other times it may be best to bite your tongue. You’ll just have to judge for yourself.
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LordHaveMercy:
Our goal as Catholics is to become saints.
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This.
 
Thank you for stating you do not seek a point by point response. I offer the most simple of answers based on what you correctly deduce is the crux of the matter. I propose that a significant issue is you seem to be confronting issues and discussions that are more suited to a classroom of theology or biblical studies. They are not suited to an intensive session of catechesis, the purpose of which is to prepare you to decide if you wish to be received into full communion with the Catholic Church. (I make that determination based on what you relate which is not totally fair since I have heard your characterizations and not exactly what was said and the way in which it was formulated or the context in which it was said; they could have been posited in a non-problematic manner, theologically.)

The catechism, by its very nature, is an authoritative summary of what we believe as Catholics. The catechism is not, again by its nature, a theological discussion. It seems that is, perhaps, how it is being used in the context of your classes…as a launching point for discussions in speculative theology.

If that is what is being done, it is rather ill considered since you lack the necessary background to engage in that. You’re not a theology student, let alone a theologian or scripture scholar. You’re in the process of learning the basics of Catholicism such as to have some rudimentary mastery of the catechism. One needs to walk before one runs up the mountainside.

When I was a professor and when I had responsibility for seminarians, I discouraged students from challenging their theology professors. First, they were poor at trying to present cogent arguments and did even more poorly attempting to sustain their argument as they faced challenge and tried to answer points raised in objection. And this even if the position they sought to articulate was, indeed, correct. Actually, there is so little to gain in that circumstance since you are unlikely to either sustain your argument theologically and, least of all, affect the opinion of those with whom you are disputing.

I think you are wise to suppose that your opposition to a statement would indeed turn into a full-throated academic discussion in which you may find yourself quickly unable to refute the responses that will be offered by the person you are challenging…which is likely to not redound to your benefit at all.

A student need not agree with either the postulations or the conclusions of his instructors to complete the course and proceed to graduation. Plus, you have found positive aspects to these classes and people, thankfully.

To be practical, you have been on a journey toward Catholicism for four years, as you relate. You are some 10 weeks from being received into full communion with the Church, at the Easter vigil, presuming that is what you wish to do; I do not know why you chose to withdraw from RCIA at the parish you found more to your preference.

If you take the advice offered by some here, removing yourself from this program, you will most likely have to wait until Fall to begin RCIA again in a different parish, given how RCIA is typically implemented. That is an advantage if you prefer to go through the program anew and with a different set of instructors who have a different mind…and if you do not mind the further delay in entering full communion.

On the other hand, once you are received and confirmed, you are free to seek a different parish whose philosophy more aligns with your own and there to live a fully Catholic life. You may there subsequently continue your readings, hopefully with assistance and oversight from those better able to help you grow tranquilly into the faith than where you presently find yourself.

That would personally be my advice.
 
1ke said:
Also, there is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative”. Catholicism. There is only faithful to the Magesterium or not faithful to the Magesterium.
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👍 I like that.
 
1ke said:
Also, there is no such thing as “liberal” or “conservative”. Catholicism. There is only faithful to the Magesterium or not faithful to the Magesterium.
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While I agree that its not a good idea to use those terms, and it would be better to use the terms orthodox and unorthodox, the latter is for all practical purposes what is used. Even in the Catholic Answers podcast.
 
For a start you shouldn’t label your ‘Catholicism’. The faith is not partisan, it needs no monikers derived from politics.

Theoretically, if one is speaking more informally, there can be a valid 'Liberal Catholicism’ if by that one means an interpretation of the Church’s Social Teaching which is highly critical of conservative, neoliberal economics and more generally espouses an approach to theology that is open to a faithful development of doctrine along with new expressions of ancient truths.

A Catholic can be economically ‘Liberal’ in the American sense of the term while being entirely faithful to the Church’s moral teachings.

However a few of the statements attributed to the parish you have attended appear to be suggestive of a “heterodox” liberalism. This would indeed be irreconcilable with the dogma of Holy Mother Church. The women priests comment, for instance, is flat out heretical. The Magisterium has been pretty clear on this account.

I would caution you though: some of the statements in the OP are not ‘necessarily’ heretical or problematic. Theology can be quite complicated and nuanced. It depends very much on ‘how’ the statement is phrased (i.e. with what qualifiers and attendant explanations). So I am not at all sure that everything in the OP is at odds with established doctrine.

Nevertheless, I *would *relocate to another parish if you have serious doubts
 
If you stay in this liberal parish, you will have to realize that you will be at odds with almost everyone in authority there, including the priest and pastor perhaps.

That is not necessarily a bad thing.

You seem to have already gotten a good grounding in True Catholic doctrine from a number of sources. You should cling to those doctrines, while questioning what you hear from the leadership of this parish. By that I mean, questioning to uncover the Truth, not to try and change their liberal beliefs, which may be stubbornly held.

Although they may be liberal to the point of heretical, that doesn’t mean you concur. But they may pigeon hole you as a narrow minded, rigid gawd-help-us. 🤷

It is something you will have to consider. Either that, or move to a better parish. 🙂
 
There is no liberal or conservative in Catholicism, those are political terms. There is only orthodox and unorthodox (or heretical) Catholicism.
 
There’s a reason the Church had to publish a universal catechism in our time for the first time since the time of the Reformation. There’s unfortunately a lot of confusion out there. Stick with the Catechism.
 
Theoretically, if one is speaking more informally, there can be a valid ‘Liberal Catholicism’ if by that one means an interpretation of the Church’s Social Teaching which is highly critical of conservative, neoliberal economics and more generally espouses an approach to theology that is open to a faithful development of doctrine along with new expressions of ancient truths.
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A Catholic can be economically ‘Liberal’ in the American sense of the term while being entirely faithful to the Church’s moral teachings.
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However a few of the statements attributed to the parish you have attended appear to be suggestive of a “heterodox” liberalism. This would indeed be irreconcilable with the dogma of Holy Mother Church. The women priests comment, for instance, is flat out heretical. The Magisterium has been pretty clear on this account.
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This.

We don’t want to run the chance of miscommunication.

However I still use the term, though with care, as in my circles it is always taken in that last meaning. And its on matters where these things are fairly obvious, such as women priests et all… and that’s typically how I hear it as well. Oddly enough you can’t even really call that ‘liberal catholicism’ because its not really Catholicism as such any longer, but foreign teachings.

Still I can’t remember ever having, or participating in any useful discussion about these things, if people start out by drawing lines in the sand and putting enemy titles on each other.

We’re here to defend what the Church teaches, that’s it.
 
Digitonomy said:
While oft-repeated, this is nonsense. It implies that all those faithful to the Magesterium are clones without differences in outlook, practice, etc.
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Not at all. It implies nothing of the sort. Catholics are either faithful or not faithful.

Certainly those that are faithful, and those that are not, may be drawn to different spirituality, different ministries, different ways in which we live out the gospel but that is also neither “liberal” nor “conservative”.
 
1ke said:
Not at all. It implies nothing of the sort. Catholics are either faithful or not faithful.

Certainly those that are faithful, and those that are not, may be drawn to different spirituality, different ministries, different ways in which we live out the gospel but that is also neither “liberal” nor “conservative”.
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There is a liberal vs conservative dichotomy which is valid in Politics, Economics and a lot of other disciplines. IOW, it is certainly a human trait to lean one way or the other in ideologies. However because the Catholic Faith is not an ideology, it is misapplied.

That does not mean a Catholic individual, or a Catholic Parish that is led by individuals can not be liberal or conservative.

We ALL know what is meant by a liberal Parish. The OP has enumerated some of the typical liberal hot buttons and principles.

The only thing the OP was mistaken in, was that it is the PARISH, (or the individuals) who are liberal or conservative NOT Catholicism.

Although true Liberals (in the cultural milieu in the West) would (and do) consider the entire religion of Catholicism to be one of the worst extremes of Conservatism. Narrow minded, rigid, dogmatic. (all anathemas in Liberalism)
 
1ke said:
Certainly those that are faithful, and those that are not, may be drawn to different spirituality, different ministries, different ways in which we live out the gospel but that is also neither “liberal” nor “conservative”.
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A person, and his outlook, and the practices he engages in which may flow from that, can be optimistic, pessimistic, cautious, bold, disjointed, organized, social, cloistered, solitary, passionate, etc.

If I say that I embrace a very cerebral Catholicism, does it make sense for someone to step in and say “There is no cerebral Catholicism, there is only faithful to the Magesterium and not faithful to the Magesterium.”? No. Terms like these are perfectly legitimate adjectives to describe ourselves, the way we pursue our faith, the aspects of that faith that we are drawn to, etc. So it is with liberal and conservative.

A person may have a liberal or conservative approach for example to the mysteries of the Rosary. Pope John Paul took a liberal approach when he tacked on 5 new decades to the centuries-old list. A liberal on this issue might ask, “Why stop at 20? 30 mysteries seems like a good round number.” A conservative might stick to just the original 15, or prefer that we take 50 or 80 years adjusting to the Luminous Mysteries before considering anything new.
 
HungerNThirst4R said:
There is no liberal or conservative in Catholicism, those are political terms. There is only orthodox and unorthodox (or heretical) Catholicism.
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I said it was oft-repeated.🙂 The words “liberal” and “conservative” are not limited to the world of politics.
 
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