How to decide whether some change of government spending is against catholic teaching?

[sedonaman]

…I am strongly inclined to mistrust people who claim to be cutting government in the name of removing waste. …

The default position in the U.S. is mistrust of government in general and a reliance on free people. This is what the country was founded on.

People claim that the government is wasteful, but surely the taxpayers are just as wasteful. Do we really need a bigger t.v. or another more powerful vehicle; this does not even include people spending money on drugs and alcohol. Oh, we can justify it by saying we are helping the economy; but how is a dollar spent by the government different then that spent by an individual? …

Someone worked for that dollar spent by an individual. The only thing that government can do is take existing wealth and redistribute it. Government cannot create wealth.

Everyone has different needs. Who is going to decide what they are?

 

[davidmlamb]

The politician Ryan proposed a budget plan for the US some time ago and claimed he was inspired by his catholic faith.
The US Bishops have critized the Ryan budget plan and concluded that it “fails to meet these moral criteria.” (meaning the moral criteria of the catholic faith as i understand)
See her for background (in case you missed the 20 pages or so thread with hot deabates about the issue):
examiner.com/article/united-states-conference-of-catholic-bishops-paul-ryan-s-budget-and-ayn-rand
catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1201597.htm
usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2012-04-17/catholic-bishops-paul-ryan-budget/54361480/1

The question that i am currious about is how one actually could conclude that some budget plan is in line or against catholic faith.

Because the Bishops are the moral authority and NOT Representative Ryan! A US budget is a moral document and reflects the values of our society. The Bishops are right! Ryan’s budget is immoral and represents right wing conservatism but not Catholic doctrine on Social Justice teachings. To see what the Church teaches on this matter read CCC 2401-2436 and CCC1897-1912.

David

 

[sedonaman]

… A US budget is a moral document and reflects the values of our society. …

This is false! The US budget is whatever politicians with the most lung power can ram through. Of course, one can always claim that is the value of society, but one cannot then claim it is necessarily moral.

Subsidiarity - Pius XI

To help those in need, it is often required to work towards structural change in society. This is not the prerogative only of government officials. In fact, the church has reminded governments that each substratum of society has an appropriate role. The need for vital contributions from different human associations – ranging in size from the family to government – has been classically expressed in Catholic social teaching in the principle of “subsidiarity.” Subsidiarity has been defined by Pope Pius XI in his classical encyclical, Quadragesimo Anno, 1931:

“Just as it is gravely wrong to take from individuals what they can accomplish by their own initiative and industry and give it to the community, so also it is an injustice and at the same time, a grave evil and disturbance of right order to assign to a greater and higher association what lesser and subordinate organizations can do. For every social activity ought of its very nature to furnish help (subsidium) to the members of the body social, and never destroy and absorb them.”

Ref: Kevin E. McKenna, You Did It For Me, p 120.

So, would it be moral, according to subsidiarity, to tax Mississippi to provide welfare to Connecticut?

 

[davidmlamb]

This is false! The US budget is whatever politicians with the most lung power can ram through. Of course, one can always claim that is the value of society, but one cannot then claim it is necessarily moral.

You are wrong and I am right period! What you have stated is an opinion and one that defies Catholic Social teachings which I have already cited. The problem with you right wing Catholics is that you have exchanged Catholic social teachings for your morally bankrupt philosephies. You are in fact Cafeteria Catholics choosings which teachings you accept and the teachings you do not accept is passed off as wrong opinons by the magesterium. Your glory is your shame.

*As long as the rich can use you they will enslave you, but when you are down and out they will abandon you. As long as you have anything they will live with you, but they will drain you dry without remorse. When they need you they will deceive you and smile at you and raise your hopes; they will speak kindly to you and say, “What do you need?” They will embarrass you at their dinner parties, and finally laugh at you. Afterwards, when they see you, they will pass you by, Sirach 13:4-7

He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth
and he who gives gifts to the rich—both come to poverty. Prov 22:16*

David

 

[carn]

Because the Bishops are the moral authority and NOT Representative Ryan! A US budget is a moral document and reflects the values of our society. The Bishops are right! Ryan’s budget is immoral and represents right wing conservatism but not Catholic doctrine on Social Justice teachings. To see what the Church teaches on this matter read CCC 2401-2436 and CCC1897-1912.

David

You mean this part:
"2431 The responsibility of the state. "Economic activity, especially the activity of a market economy, cannot be conducted in an institutional, juridical, or political vacuum. On the contrary, it presupposes sure guarantees of individual freedom and private property, as well as a stable currency and efficient public services. Hence the principal task of the state is to guarantee this security, so that those who work and produce can enjoy the fruits of their labors and thus feel encouraged to work efficiently and honestly. . . . Another task of the state is that of overseeing and directing the exercise of human rights in the economic sector. However, primary responsibility in this area belongs not to the state but to individuals and to the various groups and associations which make up society.“217” ?

Or that one:
"Hence work is a duty: "If any one will not work, let him not eat.“211” ?

If Ryan thinks that the programs are inefficient, try to adress problems, for which the state is primarily not responsible or feed people, who could but do not want to work, he has a moral obligation to cut and/or restructure those programs. Thats obvious from the catechism.

Now whether the programs are inefficient or feed people who do not want to work is in my eyes not a question that can be decided based on moral authority.

 

[sedonaman]

You are wrong and I am right period!

I love it. I don’t know anyone else in this forum who has made that claim. Can you walk on water, too?

What you have stated is an opinion and one that defies Catholic Social teachings which I have already cited. The problem with you right wing Catholics is that you have exchanged Catholic social teachings for your morally bankrupt philosephies. You are in fact Cafeteria Catholics choosings which teachings you accept and the teachings you do not accept is passed off as wrong opinons by the magesterium. …

Can’t answer my questions? Don’t have a counter argument? So shout ad hominems.

 

[Ender]

Because the Bishops are the moral authority and NOT Representative Ryan!

But Ryan is the economic authority, which the bishops assuredly are not, and since the budget is an economic problem the bishops have little useful to say on the subject.

A US budget is a moral document and reflects the values of our society.

No it isn’t and no it doesn’t. That is an overly simplistic view of a budget document and the worst assumption is that because two sides disagree on the economics involved that one side is behaving immorally.

The Bishops are right!

The bishops have presented no argument to support their economic choices. There is no way to support a claim that any budget goes against Catholic teaching unless it can be shown that that was the intent of the people who drafted. Given that the (handful of) bishops haven’t even shown that the results will be harmful they can hardly assert that the budget’s authors intended to harm anyone.

Ryan’s budget is immoral and represents right wing conservatism but not Catholic doctrine on Social Justice teachings.

Again, budgets are merely documents; if there is morality involved it can only be from the intent of the people who drew them up and in order to make that charge one would have to know their intent. Since you don’t know it you have no grounds to impugn it.

To see what the Church teaches on this matter read CCC 2401-2436 and CCC1897-1912.

Point us to the section that describes what cuts can or cannot be made in a nation’s budget. What the Church presents to us are guidelines, objectives. She specifies the ends but the individual is responsible for devising the means. The Church makes no comment whatever on the proper ends to choose. Your “argument” amounts to nothing more than asserting that conservatives are evil, which is not very persuasive - not least because even if it was true it would still be meaningless as far as determining what solutions would best fix the budget.

Ender

 

[JimG]

Before a budget can be a moral document, it has to be a true document: it has to reflect reality. It has to begin with an accurate assessment of income and assets and obligations.

A young couple preparing a yearly budget might wish to provide a new car for their teenage son, new bikes for their 4th and 6th graders, and a separate bedroom for everybody. But they have to begin by assessing what income is available.

 

[white_sheep]

I’d think that any budget which called for spending more money than is brought in is immoral on those grounds alone.

 

[Abu]

This is how bishops’ conferences can muddle the imperative with the useful to the detriment of the vital.

**USCCB statements on other political topics are harming the campaign for religious freedom
By Phil Lawler, May 04, 2012 **
The USCCB stance is obviously crafted by a handful of prelates, guided by the conference staff.

The USCCB has done what the USCCB always does: muddied the water, by issuing statements on a host of different political issues—including many of which good Catholics have differing opinions, and on which Catholic bishops have no special expertise.

If the US bishops are serious in their desire to preserve religious liberty, and serious about a campaign to stave off the threats posed by the Obamacare mandate, the USCCB must stop issuing statements that distract attention from that cause.

Get the full extent of the multitude of 16 topics in the past 10 weeks at:
catholicculture.org/commentary/otn.cfm?id=909