How to defend morals to atheists/agnostics

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angeline15

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Hello Forum!
I am in always in need of advice here, yet have so little advice to give. 🤷

My bf and I are soon to be engaged, and all of our friends (and much of our family) is asking why we are not planning to live together first. We try to explain that it’s not our beliefs or religion… but many of them respond with “I’m catholic and I did it” or “everyone should live together before getting married, that’s what leads to divorce”… and other unsolicited advice. Many of our contemporaries do not believe in any faith or custom, and cannot relate to us on any level.

I do not wish to judge or offend anyone. I do not try to overshare details of our relationship like abstinence or living apart… because I feel like it would pass judgment on how they live their lives…but should I use this as a preaching moment? I know that I shy away from the topic, but I do not know a polite way of firmly stating my beliefs.

My bf usually changes the topic to sports. I’m still working on that.

Thanks!
-A.

PS. Should I distance myself from my atheist/agnostic “friends”? I know that we are having less and less in common as my faith grows and their antagonism to religion grows…I also don’t know how to politely quit friendships.
 
Site the studies that show a correlation with not cohabiting and lower divorce rates.

Edit: marriage.about.com/od/cohabitation/qt/cohabfacts.htm

The faith aspect aside, keep in mind there are details that strengthen and weaken living separately when they bring it up.

As for distancing yourself, that’s your decision. Perhaps you can simply agree amongst yourselves to avoid religious topics?
 
Hello, just wanted to offer my advice from someone who is catholic with an atheist husband. I almost feel like we had too much support to move in together prior to marriage - at least from his side. My family was against it of course.

I don’t personally think you should use it as a teaching moment with your friends as I think it will add to further conflict. I think they will try to dispute your beliefs, etc. Is there a way that you can simply say that each couple decides for themselves what is right for their future, you have made that choice and would appreciate if they respect your choice, just as you do theirs.
 
If you’re going to be married, you may as well learn the answers to someone who thinks it is their place to tell you to do something that violates your conscience or even your authority to make your own decisions for your own family. This will not be the first time you run into this, because everyone seems to have this issue at some time or another. Once you’re married, it will be about your career, where you live, how many children you have and when, how you raise them, and yada yada yada.

Option 1 Answer to Inappropriately Nosy Questions, like “Why Not?”: *I beg your pardon? Be sure to put an expression on your face that shows just how far over the line their question is. If they keep asking, you just keep saying, “I beg your pardon?” *until you are forced to to get a bit more blunt with, “That really isn’t any of your business” or “That decision isn’t a topic I care to debate,” or something like that until you clam down and refuse to talk about it any more.

Option 2 Answer to Inappropriately Nosy Questions, like “Why Not?” is a more subtle version of *I beg your pardon? *You just look at them as if they didn’t ask what they just asked, and you change the subject. Sports is fine. The weather is good. Ask for a recipe. Anything is fine. This is the least confrontational route, and probably the best way to go unless someone is thick enough to drive you up to Option 1.

Option 3 Answer to Inappropriately Nosy Questions, like “Why Not?” was yours, which is “We don’t believe in it” or “Living apart until we are actually married is what we both want to do,” et cetera, followed by exactly as many reasons as you find inclined to give. Zero reasons are just fine, and do not let anyone tell you any differently. You’re not talking about a decision on which they get a vote, and do not ever back down from that. It will only encourage them to butt in with unsolicited advice in the future. When they give all their reasons why you ought to do what they think you ought to do instead of what you have explained that you have already decided for yourselves to do, you can say, “I think I just told you that we don’t believe in living together before marriage. It worked for thousands of years, so we think we can manage it just fine, thank you,” or you can just say, “We can handle our own decisions just fine on our own, thank you very much.” If they say something like, “Well, there is no reason to get so sensitive!” remember that this translates as “I don’t want to admit what an insensitive clod I am, so I’m going to blame this uncomfortable interchange on you.” Don’t answer that. Just let it drop and insist on changing the subject.

What about other options, like using this as an opening to give a full discourse on how prudent your course of action actually is, even from a secular view? (And it is a prudent course of action, have no doubt about that. There is no evidence that living together before marriage increases the likelihood of marital success.) You will be able to tell that some fraction of the people asking you about your choice will not be arguing with you, but will be genuinely intrigued by your answer and eager to know more. Save your witness for them.

Now who is going to harm you if you are enthusiastic for what is good? But even if you should suffer because of righteousness, blessed are you. Do not be afraid or terrified with fear of them, but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your good conduct in Christ may themselves be put to shame. For it is better to suffer for doing good, if that be the will of God, than for doing evil. (1 Pet. 3:13-17)

A reasoned argument in favor of traditional morals to those whose only thought is to shout traditional morals down, however–that would be pearls before swine. Don’t go there.

BTW, if someone tries to tell you that you are being judgmental, you can point out that you are not the one who put your nose into some other couple’s decisions, and that in fact you have never given your opinion on this subject to anyone who didn’t ask. Then change the subject. Leave it to them to connect the dots that you would appreciate it if they withheld their opinions when you don’t ask for it.

IOW, I’d use this as an opportunity to teach the busybodies that when you want advice, you ask for it, and if you don’t ask, it isn’t wanted. You will never regret getting that point across.
 
angeline15 said:
…Should I distance myself from my atheist/agnostic “friends”? I know that we are having less and less in common as my faith grows and their antagonism to religion grows…I also don’t know how to politely quit friendships.
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Just to clarify: I wouldn’t put “friends” in quotes just because they lack faith, and I doubt you would, either. An atheist or an agnostic can be a friend to religious person, of course. It is the growing antagonism towards your beliefs and an increasing willingness to oppose your own sense of your own mind that is the problem. If they notice there is a growing distance and ask about it, you can say, “I’m sorry, but more and more I feel I’m being made a misfit because of my beliefs in this group, and while I can believe you mean well, that isn’t much fun. I think it would be easier on everyone to find a group that finds tolerating what I really think without trying to change my mind about it less uncomfortable.” Or you can say you have become busy with other things, provided that it is true.

The way you politely quit friendships with people you no longer enjoy is to join them less and less often for social events and just generally include them less in your most intimate circle. It is called growing apart, and it happens naturally all of the time. The same goes for relatives. Some events are “command performances,” but you usually have a choice about who you talk with the most, how many family events you attend, when you arrive and how long you stay. Be cheerful when you’re there, but make an exit when you can if you aren’t made to feel comfortable in your own skin.
 
Don’t feel the need to defend your faith. The Church has moral theologians and apologists who specialise in this task, and most of the rest of us are not well equipped for it.

Instead, just try to share your faith. Explain what you believe, as far as you can, and why it is positive in your life. You can always successfully share your faith without holding a doctorite in theology, but once you try to defend it, unless you hold a doctorite you can end up out of your depth pretty quickly.

So you can simply say something like “we believe that waiting until we are married to live together will give us the best opportunity for a long and happy marriage and many secular research studies indicate this to be true”.

If you start with a comment like “we believe…” you make it about you, not about others (ie not judging others). Just focus on this being the best decision for the two of you, made by the two of you together.
 
I have no advice at the moment, but wanted to wish you and your bf all the best. God bless you!
 
You love your bf, and he loves you.
It looks like you are each giving an ultimate gift to each other at your marriage whereas your friends did not have an ultimate gift to give to each other at their marriages. And you are giving that gift in association with the pledge, vows, of your marriage, whereas they gave temporary gifts prior to marriage (as if they could take them back were the marriage to be cancelled).

You are not temporary, your gift of yourself to one another. Give each other non-temporal union of yourselves. And when your children grow up they will look at the two of you as one and think you are the happiest of people they know and they will seek to be like you in that same way.
 
Everything EasterJoy wrote.

How you deal with people now is going to set the tone for the rest of your lives together, so it is good to get used to sharing only limited details with people who think they have a right to comment about everything. I have found that the more information you give people like that, the more reign they take with their intrusive comments. I think your boyfriend has the right idea by changing the subject without answering nosy questions.

I don’t think you need to view it as a “preaching moment” unless you really want to. When people see that you are happily married down the road and that not living together didn’t “lead to divorce” as they assumed it would, maybe they’ll figure it out. Having a debate about your personal choices is unnecessary and not nearly as effective as just living out your faith and letting people draw their own conclusions.
 
angeline15 said:
…We try to explain that it’s not our beliefs or religion… but many of them respond with “I’m catholic and I did it”
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This is a big pet peeve of mine. I have a hard time being friends with intellectually dishonest people. If you’re going to claim that you’re Catholic and that you behave in a way contrary to the way the Church teaches, you should have the honesty to also admit that you are not following Church teachings. I have actually said, in a kind manner, to people, “well, you have made a choice to not follow the teachings of the Church on this matter. I have chosen differently - TO follow those teachings. So I guess that explains the difference.” If need be, you can followed it up with “I respect your right to make that choice, just as my choice to obey those teachings also ought to be respected.” A person who doesn’t value the Church enough to follow her teachings shouldn’t be offended by having that pointed out to them. If they actually have the gall to be offended by the completely true statement of “well, sure you’re Catholic, but you’re not following the rules” then I don’t think they deserve to be tiptoed around.

But then, I’m in a grumpy mood, and depending on how grumpy I am feeling after I’ve heard “but I’m Catholic and I do it” I might be more or less diplomatic in the way I say things.

I can appreciate the less confrontational approach too. I do think though that Catholics who go around telling the world that they’re Catholic and therefore it’s ok to sin, should occasionally get called out on their baloney.
 
EasterJoy said:
If you’re going to be married, you may as well learn the answers to someone who thinks it is their place to tell you to do something that violates your conscience or even your authority to make your own decisions for your own family.

. You’re not talking about a decision on which they get a vote,

BTW, if someone tries to tell you that you are being judgmental, you can point out that you are not the one who put your nose into some other couple’s decisions, and that in fact you have never given your opinion on this subject to anyone who didn’t ask.
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Many great points, as always.

I’m always amazed that certain factions have created a world where they don’t mind telling everyone else how to live, and critiquing others’ values, but then shout, Judgmental! Intolerant! if it is done to them in return. Or even if they ASK why someone is doing a thing and that person answers why.
 
EasterJoy said:
… Once you’re married, it will be about your career, where you live, how many children you have and when, how you raise them, and yada yada yada.
…
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Great post. I have run into this situation many times [not about co-habitating but other issues as you pointed out], and without exception, they all eventually lead to the same point of your having to justify your existence. So I came up with the perfect response to preempt reaching that point. There was a rather “butch” ex-military secretary in our office, a really nice person who liked to play the tough cookie. One morning she took another worker by surprise and said, “And what do you have to say for yourself this morning?!!!” I pulled him aside and whispered, “Tell her, ‘because God created me.’” He did, and it jerked the rug right out from under her. 😃
 
When someone says “Why don’t you . . .?” you can just say “because we choose not to.” And if they follow up with “Why not?”, the answer again is “because we choose not to.”

They will soon tire of not being able to suck you into a debate, trust me. 😃
 
agnes_therese said:
When someone says “Why don’t you . . .?” you can just say “because we choose not to.” And if they follow up with “Why not?”, the answer again is “because we choose not to.”

…
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I feel it’s up to the advocate of a course of action to justify it. Perhaps a better response to “Why not?” is “Why?”
 
unstoppable_II said:
Great post. I have run into this situation many times [not about co-habitating but other issues as you pointed out], and without exception, they all eventually lead to the same point of your having to justify your existence. So I came up with the perfect response to preempt reaching that point. There was a rather “butch” ex-military secretary in our office, a really nice person who liked to play the tough cookie. One morning she took another worker by surprise and said, “And what do you have to say for yourself this morning?!!!” I pulled him aside and whispered, “Tell her, ‘because God created me.’” He did, and it jerked the rug right out from under her. 😃
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I love this!
 
you’ve already pointed out that it’s not just the non-christians bothering you, since your catholic friends make the same comments. I think the real issue is that you seem to have some really rude friends. it’s one thing to be genuinely curious, especially if they don’t know anyone else who has kept their own place, but it’s another when they reply in a way that clearly implies there’s something wrong with you.

I don’t know your current living situation (distance-wise, if either of you are still at home or have other roommates, etc), but there are plenty of non-religious reasons to not move in together: we like having our own space. we both like where we’re living now, and we’d like to find a new place together once we’re married. we want to find a bigger place together. my apt is more convenient to my job. we don’t want to clean up after the other before absolutely necessary. etc.

my biggest secular reason would have to be that boys are disgusting, and the less time I have to spend cleaning up after one, the better. 😃 I’m not even joking about that. dirt/mess bothers me way more than most other people. I hated having roommates because it was always too messy for me, but there was no incentive for me to clean when it wasn’t my turn. when I got married I decided I’d do all the cleaning because then it would meet my standards - and since his money is my money, I’m technically getting paid for it 😛

also, I wouldn’t want someone moving into my place and moving things around, or to have to move someone else’s stuff around when moving into theirs. when I lived on my own I had stuff exactly where I wanted it. I could move things wherever I wanted without having to ask or tell anyone. if you wait to get a new place together, it’ll be new for both of you and no one will feel like “their things” are being disrespected, or that they’re being forced out of their place before they’re ready.

to be completely honest, sometimes I still wish I lived alone. I have enough bad habits of my own, I don’t always want to deal with his, you know? 🤷
 
unstoppable_II said:
I feel it’s up to the advocate of a course of action to justify it. Perhaps a better response to “Why not?” is “Why?”
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Actually, playfully turning the tables and training the microscope on the super-nosy is another useful ploy. When someone says, “why not?” and will not let it go, you can ask, “Wow. Does it bother you that I’m not doing the same thing you did? Why is that? Does it make you *uncomfortable *that some people still live apart before they are married? I mean to say that you seem VERY interested in this, and that is intriguing to me. Are there other ways in which it makes you uncomfortable when other people do things a different way than you did? Or does it only bother you when other people run their sex lives differently than you do? I mean, are you sure it doesn’t bother you the least little bit that you didn’t wait for marriage after all? Really? Are you sure?..”

Then let them stammer and defend themselves for a minute, and when you change the subject, they’ll see it as a mercy. 😉 😃
 
insideitall said:
you’ve already pointed out that it’s not just the non-christians bothering you, since your catholic friends make the same comments. I think the real issue is that you seem to have some really rude friends. it’s one thing to be genuinely curious, especially if they don’t know anyone else who has kept their own place, but it’s another when they reply in a way that clearly implies there’s something wrong with you.
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One way for the human to find moral self approval is to find others who are doing the same thing. Most seem to find in Catholics, and Catholicism in particular, a higher moral standard. I think there might be something of this in your Catholic friend.
 
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