How to discuss Catholicism with a pompous Catholic?

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LumineDiei said:
I get what you are saying, but I was going straight on the “valid” wording. Since valid means the bread and wine actually become the Body and Blood of Christ. There are people that claim to be Catholic, however you will find them claiming that only the TLM can be valid and Ordinary Form Masses do not, for the lack of a better term, have the ability for transubstantiation, thus the “novus ordo” is an invalid Mass across the board. Since the OP’s friend attends a parish staffed by the FSSP, I would highly doubt he’d find this idea there among the fellow parishioners, however, should he decide to take more steps further into the Traditionalist Catholic movement…who knows what he may find people believing and trying to pass off as official Church teaching.
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“Traditionalist Catholic” thinking is all over the boards. Those groups such as the FSSP and ICKSP, which have the full blessing of the Church, affirm both OF and EF as equally valid, and all post-Vatican II sacraments in the new rites as being valid. Then there is the SSPX, other independent groups that acknowledge Francis (or at least Benedict) as Pope, and “sedevacantists” who say the Holy See is vacant. It goes all the way to “ecclesiaprivationists”, who say that the post-Vatican II church has ceased to be the Catholic Church, and that none of its bishops, priests, sacraments, or Masses are valid, and “conclavists” who have attempted to elect their own popes (these tend to be very, very small groups). It’s a broad spectrum and there is some overlap.

My own stance is with the FSSP and other groups (including diocesan priests) who act subject to the local bishops, with much sympathy for, and substantial (not total) agreement with the SSPX as well. As far as the other groups, I understand why they do what they do, why they think as they do, I do not condemn them as “bad Catholics” or as formally schismatic, but I don’t agree with them.
 
I have had that happen years ago when I was a Baptist with a Calvinist who was ultra, hyper, super, sold on his traditional beliefs. I could no longer deal with him. These “die, heretic” types are often worse witnesses than those who cause scandal.

I do not mean to say that they are pervasive or representative of traditionalists, to be sure.
 
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Have you ever found something that really excites you and you just want to share it with the world?
For some, it’s the keto diet. For others, it’s the Star Wars franchise, a major sports team, an incredible new (or old) author, a fabulous vacation spot. . .people just want to tell the world how wonderful those things are.

And then. . .have you ever seen somebody 'kick the habit" on something? Give up beer, soda, gluten, or ‘get healthy’ by starting running, Pilates, yoga, etc? Wow, are they ever negative on ‘the bad’ that they have escaped and wow do they ever PUSH the ‘new’ things they view as 'the best thing I’ve ever done for me, my family, etc."

Your friend is in this situation, most likely, and so he’s viewing it from that happy perspective and, like most of us today, he can’t see that others might not view this as positive, or be all that interested. And truly, I’ll bet he doesn’t think of himself as negative. It’s amazing but true.

I would personally cut him a little slack. I mean, perhaps you’re a Washington Nationals supporters and right now you’re over the moon --the Series! At last! Hubba hubba!- and believe me somehow your friends and family get tired of hearing your joy, strange as it may seem. YOU don’t realize that you are being over emphatic and that maybe your son, who is a Yankees fan, doesn’t really appreciate that you’re chortling about how NOW they’re going to face a REAL opponent as if baseball never existed until this day. IOW, your friend is not personally going after you because he thinks you’re headed to hell in a handbasket, you personally, and he’s giving you the hard sell for a heavenly condo; he is just overwhelmed by his “good news”. And it’s so easy to get defensive (even though Episcopalians are very tolerant and easy going, but it’s hard to hear your worship described as if it’s the equivalent to faux Rolex watches being hawked by con men as opposed to 'the real thing). . .but please, don’t let it get to you. If he’s a good guy (and I assume before this epiphany he was a pretty good guy), he will very soon get a sense of where he has become pompous and be properly humble and apologetic. Really, he will. And he’ll need friends who can forgive and forget.
 
On an interpersonal level, you can listen without judgment. Don’t label him as pompous. He is a child of God and made in His image. Think the best of him. Ask the person about his spiritual journey. Stress commonalities. Don’t be contentious. You may learn something from him.

I hope these suggestions help. God bless you!
 
Not really. I was just factual information. Antiquarianism is the belief that the liturgy should be like it was then. Whether this is a heresy or not is often a debated point, especially since it affects disciplines, not doctrines.
 
stpurl said:
Have you ever found something that really excites you and you just want to share it with the world?
For some, it’s the keto diet.
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Or Amway, and that too, in a select few, will end most friendships.
 
I know, but man was the instrument. That is how I took it. Just like the Holy Spirit chooses a Pope through men.
 
The Holy Spirit has apparently “guided” men to make quite a few changes over the centuries. However there has never been complete agreement on what guidance the Holy Spirit was giving due to the fact that Councils were required to determine what the Holy Spirit was saying.

Hopefully the Councils got it right, and that a minority position that was overlooked wasn’t the correct guidance.

It is on Faith that we accept the results of the changes that man determined.
 
Episcopalian said:
Anyway, he and I enjoy discussing religion and such, but with his shift he’s gotten extremely critical of all religions outside of Catholicism, and even with Novus Ordo Catholics he goes on about how they need to “come back to their roots” and celebrate Tridentine style.
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Authentic ‘conversion’ is manifest in a growth of the fruits of the Holy Spirit so when peoples ‘change’ manifests as pompous and judgemental, you have to be cautious. It’s probably no longer healthy to engage him in religious discussion. By God’s grace hopefully he will come to recognise this.

Gal 5 22 By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also be guided by the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, competing against one another, envying one another.
 
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Episcopalian said:
Have any of you dealt with someone like this?
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All the time. There’s only one way to hold a religious discussion with people like this: Don’t. Change the subject to chocolate or cats or baseball. (OK, those are my interests. Fill in your own. 😉 ) I’m sorry to see that your friendship dynamic has shifted because I love discussing religion and wish I had more people in my life who could do so with me in an open and charitable manner.

If you’re ever curious about Catholicism, even if you’re not seeking to convert, go online and click on the PDF bulletins of parishes in your area. A number of priests and deacons offer evening adult ed courses discussing a wide range of issues and Church teachings. They’re free, usually hosted in parish halls, and you can just show up without needing to RSVP or sign in.
 
Wear a monocle, offer him Trident gum, remind him of the warning from Pope Francis regarding proselytizing others, and every now and then say, “Mmmm, yes, quite, quite.”

Maybe he’ll get the picture.
 
Exactly! Hence the Ordinary Form in the vernacular with the priest facing the people.
Unfortunately, some people overlook the Homy Spirit’s guidance present in the liturgical changes that occurred in the last century.
 
I don’t engage with people who are not interested in debating and only interested in single sentence insults. Papolaters and Sedevacantists are the worst in my opinion.
 
So you only agree that the Holy Spirit works in the liturgical changes you like, and not using the name the Church calls that liturgy?
 
Genesis315 said:
He has discovered something good and beautiful that has been hidden from him and he wants others to have it too.
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Genesis315 said:
He has discovered something good and beautiful that has been hidden from him and he wants others to have it too
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Hidden? I don’t believe that the EF has been hidden from anyone for quite some time. In any case, I think the pompousness is not in wanting his friend to have something beautiful, but in the manner in which he is selling it; I got the sense of “this is the only right way for anyone to worship and your tradition is junk” sort of thing. Maybe that’s not what was said, or even meant, but that was the sense I got from the OP.

ETA: Not sure why the quote is duplicated, it was not intended to be.
 
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The Church, herself, in her teachings and through her several recent popes especially, has taken a very different tack from your friend’s, with and due to Vat II to a large extent. Anyway, hopefully it’s just a priggish phase that some of us have to go thru, meanwhile being a pain for everyone else.
 
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Episcopalian said:
Have any of you dealt with someone like this?
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  1. God reveals things to people in prayer.
  2. When someone prays in Latin, they will experience those revelations too…
  3. Chances are they’ll think it is so wonderful, they will want to share it too…
  4. The problem is - almost no one speaks Latin today…
  5. The person then will have a problem…
5.a. - They will will have experienced the love derived from upholding the 1st commandment…

5.b. - They will then want and have to extend it to others to uphold the 2nd commandment… REPEAT: They will HAVE to uphold the 2nd Commmandment… but they’re not thinking in terms of the common vernacular… with all its idioms… where a lot of people are even into coding stuff, like bots…
  1. What then?
  2. The only conclusion is - Jesus took on the form of a slave to save mankind… I’m sure he could have spoken in many different languages to his audience, but he chose to speak the word of God in their own language as Emmanuel…
CONCLUSION: My end thought was to look at the Latin language as the source of the problem… As beautiful as it is - however traditional - Latin is also way out of the ordinary… one could compare it to being somewhat like what Gregorian Chant (or even better a madrigal) is to a rock and roll…

There’s nothing wrong with chants, madrigals or rock, but it’s when someone starts trying to tell everyone else they should be speaking Latin in the 21st Century that that person is going to have to realize the 1st Commandment ultimately serves the 2nd Commandment…

But, then, when it comes to upholding the second commandment, you have to meet people half way… otherwise, your likely to be awfully alone in your resolves, and I’d hate to think where that could lead a soul, who is - like all other humans - vulnerable to sin… and even god’s judgment… The same God who commanded us to love one another, as He loved us…
 
My family are TLM attendies. IME many of the parishioners are convinced their mass is better and more pleasingto God.

My son had his first communion last year at a NO mass. My siblings begrudgingly attended but there was clearly a lot of snark and eye rolling with the ‘lack of reverence’. I just play dumb and pretend I don’t realise.

All it does is turn me off ever going there at all. It also leaves a feeling of frustration to the total disrespect of others belief systems.

OP unfortunately I don’t think your friend will change. I’d politely tell him you don’t want to discuss it.
 
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That was me a couple years ago and still jokingly today. I have settled down from how I was 2 years ago. I eventually met other Catholics who attend the novus ordo and do those praise and worship stuff. I realized if that brings people to the faith so be it. I assume he is young he will with the help of God grow out of it. You can still appreciate the Latin Mass and be a traditionalist without being super preachy about it.
 
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