How to Discuss the concept of the Catholic Church being the "One, True Church" with non-Catholic Christians

[zaramarie81]

I’m sorry of this question has been asked before… after skimming for a bit, I did not see it. Here’s the question -

As Catholics we believe the CC is the one true Church through which salvation comes (because it is through the apostles’ teachings, their successors, the Sacraments, and Scripture that we come to fully know and be united to Christ). Our faith teaches that outside the Church, there is no salvation (but of course makes clarifications about those who are ignorant of the truth). But where does this leave modern Protestants/non-Catholic Christians? Many are genuine in their faith in Christ, but do not accept the Catholic Church, Her Sacraments, some doctrines, and Her authority etc as the one true, Church. Stating that the CC is the one true Church is both upsetting and appalling to many Christians I know.

I read a recent article by two Protestants that claimed the Catholic Church teaches that “knowledgeable Protestants” who reject the authority of the CC are condemned to hell b/c they would be in a state of mortal sin. I am trying to formulate a response that will help these individuals understand that their conclusion (that the CC teaches Protestants “with knowledge of Catholicism” will go to hell) is inaccurate. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

 

[dianaiad]

I’m sorry of this question has been asked before… after skimming for a bit, I did not see it. Here’s the question -

As Catholics we believe the CC is the one true Church through which salvation comes (because it is through the apostles’ teachings, their successors, the Sacraments, and Scripture that we come to fully know and be united to Christ). Our faith teaches that outside the Church, there is no salvation (but of course makes clarifications about those who are ignorant of the truth). But where does this leave modern Protestants/non-Catholic Christians? Many are genuine in their faith in Christ, but do not accept the Catholic Church, Her Sacraments, some doctrines, and Her authority etc as the one true, Church. Stating that the CC is the one true Church is both upsetting and appalling to many Christians I know.

I read a recent article by two Protestants that claimed the Catholic Church teaches that “knowledgeable Protestants” who reject the authority of the CC are condemned to hell b/c they would be in a state of mortal sin. I am trying to formulate a response that will help these individuals understand that their conclusion (that the CC teaches Protestants “with knowledge of Catholicism” will go to hell) is inaccurate. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Here’s how the Mormons handle a similar problem: we simply say that while all churches have truth, we have the most, and more importantly, we have the priesthood authority that nobody else does.

…but that God doesn’t consign people to hell because they don’t all believe everything exactly right; if that were true, we’d all be hell bound!

…now, please don’t hit me. (running very, very fast, very, very far away…and not telling ANYBODY where I live!)

 

[zaramarie81]

Here’s how the Mormons handle a similar problem: we simply say that while all churches have truth, we have the most, and more importantly, we have the priesthood authority that nobody else does.

…but that God doesn’t consign people to hell because they don’t all believe everything exactly right; if that were true, we’d all be hell bound!

…now, please don’t hit me. (running very, very fast, very, very far away…and not telling ANYBODY where I live!)

Haha, are you running because you are afraid I’ll be upset that you’re Mormon? One of my best friends is Mormon, and we discuss theology/faith all the time. So no worries! Thanks for your response… I have found Mormons often think along the same vein as Catholics do in regards to authority and there being only one Church of Christ. Thought provoking!

 

[O.S.Luke]

I read a recent article by two Protestants that claimed the Catholic Church teaches that “knowledgeable Protestants” who reject the authority of the CC are condemned to hell b/c they would be in a state of mortal sin. I am trying to formulate a response that will help these individuals understand that their conclusion (that the CC teaches Protestants “with knowledge of Catholicism” will go to hell) is inaccurate. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Zaramarie:

You are to be commended for your grace and charity. However, you have a very difficult task on your hands. Reading the Catechism and other official documents of the Roman Catholic Church, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that “knowledgeable Protestants” will be condemned for rejecting Catholicism. I obviously don’t believe this, but then again I am not a Roman Catholic, either.

Best of luck.

O+

 

[Marsha_Adams]

I think I can help you out here. The key is it is not a matter of knowledge. It is a matter of conviction.

For example, if I read a book written by Lenin on communism I would walk away “knowing” about communism. Would I become a communist? No, because I was not convicted that communism is right and true. Suppose, however, that as I read the book my heart was stirred and I came away, feeling YES! this is the answer, this is TRUE! Would I become a communist? Of course, and probably an activist as well.

Suppose a person were born and raised Seventh Day Adventist and his whole life taught that the Catholic Church was the whore of Rome and the anti-christ. You give him a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and he reads it cover to cover. He comes away “knowing” what the Church teaches. Is he convicted? No, in fact he underlined in red all the false doctrines and lies that the Church teaches.

Is he going to hell because he knows what the Church teaches? No, because he was not convicted that it was truth. If as he read the Catechism the Holy Spirit moved his heart and he came to recognize the truth and he STILL refuses to become Catholic then yes, he is probably in big trouble.

Anyone can impart knowledge, but only the Holy Spirit convicts.

 

[zaramarie81]

Zaramarie:

You are to be commended for your grace and charity. However, you have a very difficult task on your hands. Reading the Catechism and other official documents of the Roman Catholic Church, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that “knowledgeable Protestants” will be condemned for rejecting Catholicism. I obviously don’t believe this, but then again I am not a Roman Catholic, either.

Best of luck.

O+

O -

Thanks for your thoughts. I think part of the dilemma I am running into is the issue you raise - how some Catholic documents are perceived and how some of the language can be confusing. But it’s definitely my understanding that the CC does not condemn Protestants to hell, but sees all baptized Christians as members of Christ’s Body, the Church (even if sadly, Christendom is quite splintered – but not completely broken). So far, what I’ve gleaned, is that when the CC makes a point to speak of the Church as the way to salvation it is to emphasize that there is only one Christ, one Gospel, one Truth that must be defended and taught - that Christ is the only way to salvation (and who “has” Christ to offer the world? The Church, who was charged to go and baptize all nations). I don’t think the focus of such statements is to condemn anyone to hell (esp since the Church usually refrains from condemning any particular group or soul to hell), but to further explore/affirm that there is only one Gospel. Sadly, I’m all twisted up in knots as to how to fully explain this… especially since Protestant/Catholic relations have “evolved” quite a bit from the tumultuous Reformation days. (It’s one thing to call a Catholic priest breaking from doctrine a “heretic”, quite another to address an audience of 4th-generation Southern Baptists).

 

[happilycatholic]

I’m sorry of this question has been asked before… after skimming for a bit, I did not see it. Here’s the question -

As Catholics we believe the CC is the one true Church through which salvation comes (because it is through the apostles’ teachings, their successors, the Sacraments, and Scripture that we come to fully know and be united to Christ). Our faith teaches that outside the Church, there is no salvation (but of course makes clarifications about those who are ignorant of the truth). But where does this leave modern Protestants/non-Catholic Christians? Many are genuine in their faith in Christ, but do not accept the Catholic Church, Her Sacraments, some doctrines, and Her authority etc as the one true, Church. Stating that the CC is the one true Church is both upsetting and appalling to many Christians I know.

I read a recent article by two Protestants that claimed the Catholic Church teaches that “knowledgeable Protestants” who reject the authority of the CC are condemned to hell b/c they would be in a state of mortal sin. I am trying to formulate a response that will help these individuals understand that their conclusion (that the CC teaches Protestants “with knowledge of Catholicism” will go to hell) is inaccurate. Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Well, this is partially true. But it’s not just knowledge as in they know catholicism exsists, they have to have been taught, accept it as truth and then reject. In other words, if you’ve been Protestant all your life and have only been superficially exposed to catholicism, then the position on your post does not apply. But this may be a good question for the apologists.

Here is a link that may help:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

You can read this and discern for yourself. The Church does not teach that all outside of the catholic faith will go to hell. It states this in the article.

Good luck and God Bless.

HC

 

[zaramarie81]

I think I can help you out here. The key is it is not a matter of knowledge. It is a matter of conviction.

For example, if I read a book written by Lenin on communism I would walk away “knowing” about communism. Would I become a communist? No, because I was not convicted that communism is right and true. Suppose, however, that as I read the book my heart was stirred and I came away, feeling YES! this is the answer, this is TRUE! Would I become a communist? Of course, and probably an activist as well.

Suppose a person were born and raised Seventh Day Adventist and his whole life taught that the Catholic Church was the whore of Rome and the anti-christ. You give him a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and he reads it cover to cover. He comes away “knowing” what the Church teaches. Is he convicted? No, in fact he underlined in red all the false doctrines and lies that the Church teaches.

Is he going to hell because he knows what the Church teaches? No, because he was not convicted that it was truth. If as he read the Catechism the Holy Spirit moved his heart and he came to recognize the truth and he STILL refuses to become Catholic then yes, he is probably in big trouble.

Anyone can impart knowledge, but only the Holy Spirit convicts.

Thanks Marsha - good distinction between knowledge and conviction. One can “know” certain things, but background, understanding, etc can affect our convictions about it. And as you point out, only the Holy Spirit can convict. I think this goes back to the concept that only God truly knows our hearts, and only He is the perfect judge (and perfect redeemer). He knows our culpability (and on that note, Catholics can end up in hell just as easily as any other member of any other group!).

This also gets into the debate “what is salvation?” - how is it achieved, can it be lost… etc. I think some of the confusion when discussing these issues comes from that… most Protestants I know embrace “once saved, always saved” and may interpret such statements to mean that once one is baptized Catholic they are “saved” for good. But that’s not how the Church sees it!

Yikes! Sometimes, I wish these discussions were a little less complex.

 

[zaramarie81]

Well, this is partially true. But it’s not just knowledge as in they know catholicism exsists, they have to have been taught, accept it as truth and then reject. In other words, if you’ve been Protestant all your life and have only been superficially exposed to catholicism, then the position on your post does not apply. But this may be a good question for the apologists.

Here is a link that may help:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

You can read this and discern for yourself. The Church does not teach that all outside of the catholic faith will go to hell. It states this in the article.

Good luck and God Bless.

HC

Thanks HC! I will read this. So what you’re saying is that such statements more accurately apply to those who have left the Catholic Church than those who were never Catholic or only have minimal knowledge (for example, my mom was raised Catholic but poorly catechized. I don’t think she fully knows what she left, when she left the Church!).

S

 

[happilycatholic]

Thanks HC! I will read this. So what you’re saying is that such statements more accurately apply to those who have left the Catholic Church than those who were never Catholic or only have minimal knowledge (for example, my mom was raised Catholic but poorly catechized. I don’t think she fully knows what she left, when she left the Church!).

S

Yes and much more. It is a very complex issue. I also agree with Marsha in the sense that you have to feel it in your heart. It’s sort of about commitment. You can’t just know the truth and then take it upon yourself to change the truth to fit your needs. I just commented about that on another thread.

What I really wonder about (a little off topic here) is those that teach derrogatory things about the Church. For instance, pastors of other denominations that teach that the Church is pagan and other things of that nature. What will happen to those folks?

But in summary, I definitely do not believe that the Church discerns who will go to hell and who will not. In reading the catechism, I gleaned that the Church teaches us the best and foremost way to get to Heaven and that The Father will judge those who do so accordingly.

One more note – If you have questions that are really eating at you, the best thing to do is speak to your priest. We on this forum have good intensions but are sometimes in error. But you probably already know that.

HC

 

[zaramarie81]

Yes and much more. It is a very complex issue. I also agree with Marsha in the sense that you have to feel it in your heart. It’s sort of about commitment. You can’t just know the truth and then take it upon yourself to change the truth to fit your needs. I just commented about that on another thread.

What I really wonder about (a little off topic here) is those that teach derrogatory things about the Church. For instance, pastors of other denominations that teach that the Church is pagan and other things of that nature. What will happen to those folks?

But in summary, I definitely do not believe that the Church discerns who will go to hell and who will not. In reading the catechism, I gleaned that the Church teaches us the best and foremost way to get to Heaven and that The Father will judge those who do so accordingly.

One more note – If you have questions that are really eating at you, the best thing to do is speak to your priest. We on this forum have good intensions but are sometimes in error. But you probably already know that.

HC

HC -

Thanks - my parish priest is quite knowledgeable (and quite busy!). But I will definitely seek him out. Also, here’s a snippet from the CA article you sent me about those actively preaching against the Church:

"Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, “though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”

I think, once again, it goes back to intentions… are they targeting the Church maliciously or b/c they sincerely believe the CC does harm? And while the part about “eating Catholic bread” may not sit well with those who are not Catholic, I think it is an accurate reflection of how the Church sees those “outside the fold.”

Thanks again!

 

[dianaiad]

Haha, are you running because you are afraid I’ll be upset that you’re Mormon? One of my best friends is Mormon, and we discuss theology/faith all the time. So no worries! Thanks for your response… I have found Mormons often think along the same vein as Catholics do in regards to authority and there being only one Church of Christ. Thought provoking!

I have been reading this thread with great interest…I was, of course, having a little fun with the post to which you responded.

What I did was read every single post written by a Catholic here, and I inserted “CoJCoLDS’ (Mormon)” where the word “Catholic” is.
…and found that it described our beliefs about this very accurately.

What is being described here, for us, is the ‘unpardonable sin,’ the one where you actually have to know and fully understand exactly what it is you are doing when you tell the Holy Ghost to stuff it. Simply changing your mind and coming to believe something else won’t do that; It’s a sort of ‘spit in the eye’ matter, where you understand that “it” is true, but you don’t care; you are deliberately choosing another path.

----and what makes it ‘unpardonable’ isn’t that God cannot forgive or pardon, but that the person committing that sin will not allow it; that’s the whole point.

and in this, I believe, Catholics and Mormons agree whole heartedly. We just think it applies to different ideas.

 

[zaramarie81]

I have been reading this thread with great interest…I was, of course, having a little fun with the post to which you responded.

What I did was read every single post written by a Catholic here, and I inserted “CoJCoLDS’ (Mormon)” where the word “Catholic” is.
…and found that it described our beliefs about this very accurately.

What is being described here, for us, is the ‘unpardonable sin,’ the one where you actually have to know and fully understand exactly what it is you are doing when you tell the Holy Ghost to stuff it. Simply changing your mind and coming to believe something else won’t do that; It’s a sort of ‘spit in the eye’ matter, where you understand that “it” is true, but you don’t care; you are deliberately choosing another path.

----and what makes it ‘unpardonable’ isn’t that God cannot forgive or pardon, but that the person committing that sin will not allow it; that’s the whole point.

and in this, I believe, Catholics and Mormons agree whole heartedly. We just think it applies to different ideas.

Dianaiad -

I am not surprised! In recent discussions with my Mormon buddy, it became clear that while we had some significant theological differences we still had very similar concepts of things like mortal vs. venial sin, free will, culpability etc. And of all my non-Catholic friends/family (and that is a very diverse bunch), it is only my Mormon friend who takes no offense to the concept of Christ instituting one, true Church. Of course, we politely disagree on which church that is, lol.

 

[MarcoPolo]

I like to just quote the Catechism and say, this is what Catholics believe. If they have follow-up questions, then I go from there.

From the Catechism:*“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338
*

 

[dianaiad]

Dianaiad -

I am not surprised! In recent discussions with my Mormon buddy, it became clear that while we had some significant theological differences we still had very similar concepts of things like mortal vs. venial sin, free will, culpability etc. And of all my non-Catholic friends/family (and that is a very diverse bunch), it is only my Mormon friend who takes no offense to the concept of Christ instituting one, true Church. Of course, we politely disagree on which church that is, lol.

Well, yeah.

But I have come to the conclusion, m’self, that it IS either you or us. There is an old, very tired, joke about that that I won’t repeat.

 

[Soutane]

If a Protestant OR a Catholic believed in their heart of hearts that the Catholic Church was the True Church founded by Christ and denominated to another eclaisiastical body that did not contain all the Truth,all the sacraments-especially the Holy Eucharist and Sacrament of Reconciliation because the “rules” were easier and not as stringent etc.I truly believe that they would “eat condemnation”.How could you possibly defend such a concious choice to Christ?Invincible ignorance is the only defense.

 

[zaramarie81]

I like to just quote the Catechism and say, this is what Catholics believe. If they have follow-up questions, then I go from there.

From the Catechism:*“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846* How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Excellent, thank you.

 

[zaramarie81]

If a Protestant OR a Catholic believed in their heart of hearts that the Catholic Church was the True Church founded by Christ and denominated to another eclaisiastical body that did not contain all the Truth,all the sacraments-especially the Holy Eucharist and Sacrament of Reconciliation because the “rules” were easier and not as stringent etc.I truly believe that they would “eat condemnation”.How could you possibly defend such a concious choice to Christ?Invincible ignorance is the only defense.

Yes, I agree. Regardless of denominational background, if one truly accepts that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church and still walks away from it, then it is mortal sin.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Zaramarie:

You are to be commended for your grace and charity. However, you have a very difficult task on your hands. Reading the Catechism and other official documents of the Roman Catholic Church, it is hard not to come to the conclusion that “knowledgeable Protestants” will be condemned for rejecting Catholicism. I obviously don’t believe this, but then again I am not a Roman Catholic, either.

Best of luck.

O+

That’s not exactly how I read this.

Here’s what I believe is the relevant portion of the catechism:

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ’s Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:

Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

 

[zaramarie81]

Well, yeah.

But I have come to the conclusion, m’self, that it IS either you or us. There is an old, very tired, joke about that that I won’t repeat.

That makes sense. One of my Catholic friends was raised Mormon. I don’t know much about her conversion story, but she once expressed that she would never have considered a Protestant faith or any other religion. It was either Catholic or Mormon!