How to explain about "rental priests"?

[insideitall]

The venue that we’re having our reception at sent out a folder - one of those where you punch holes in the paper and use the brads to secure them in there - with a bunch of “helpful” information in it. The pages are plain photocopies. One page has names and contact information for local officiants. A breakdown of the list shows Baptist, Reformed, Methodist, and Episcopal. Unfortunately, there are also three listed as Roman Catholic. (In addition there are a handful of Interfaith Ministers, Rabbis, and a Justice.)

I of course am suspicious of anyone calling themselves an Interfaith Minister, and I was downright livid that they would even think those priests were actually RC. I find it very hard to believe that out of all the ceremonies this place does, they haven’t noticed that these three or four guys are the only priests that will perform the ceremony there. It’s not as if I live in the Deep Bible-Thumping Evangelical South - my area is very, very heavily Catholic.

Of course, I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt, especially since they’re getting lots of our money, that maybe they really don’t know, because I bet a lot of actual Catholics don’t know. I could only find information online for the first guy listed. He had a very well laid out website, and he does say on the FAQ page that he “left the Bureaucratic Church” but is registered with the “International Council of Community Churches,” and though the “ceremony will be performed the Catholic tradition… recognized by the Catholic Church understood as the ‘People of God’… the Roman Catholic Church Hierarchy considers these marriages as illicit and will not recognize them as sacramental.” Nice and wordy, but sounds good if you don’t know what he’s really saying.

Something I noticed was that his page, and others I came across after googling for more information, puts a lot of weight on the claim that Catholics believe “once a priest, always a priest.” I couldn’t find websites where it wasn’t someone promoting that view, though. Where do they get that from?

So, after all that, my real question is…

What is the best way to explain to these people that they’ve made a grave mistake in suggesting these are actual RC priests?

 

[1ke]

The best way is to tell them directly. These are not Catholic priests in good standing with the Church. These are priests who have left the Church, had their faculties to perform sacraments removed, and any weddings they do are not recognized by the Church. Therefore, to advertise them as Roman Catholic priests is false advertising and illegal.

Tell the venue it needs to change their information to make it crystal clear these are former Roman Catholic priests who will do weddings that are NOT valid in the Catholic Church. Else, you will be turning them in to the proper authorities for false advertising.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Something I noticed was that his page, and others I came across after googling for more information, puts a lot of weight on the claim that Catholics believe “once a priest, always a priest.” I couldn’t find websites where it wasn’t someone promoting that view, though. Where do they get that from?

From the Church:
VII. The Effects of the Sacrament of Holy Orders

(And #1583 in particular might help in explaining that the sacraments performed by such gentlemen are illicit)

tee

 

[PhilotheaZ]

The venue that we’re having our reception at …

Of course, I’d like to give them the benefit of the doubt, especially since they’re getting lots of our money, that maybe they really don’t know, because I bet a lot of actual Catholics don’t know. …

Something I noticed was that his page, and others I came across after googling for more information, puts a lot of weight on the claim that Catholics believe “once a priest, always a priest.” I couldn’t find websites where it wasn’t someone promoting that view, though. Where do they get that from?

So, after all that, my real question is…

What is the best way to explain to these people that they’ve made a grave mistake in suggesting these are actual RC priests?

There is an element of truth in their claims. The Sacrament of Holy Orders does leave an indelible marke on the soul, so “once a priest, always a priest” is correct. This man, if he was validly ordained, IS still a priest. But any Catholic priest performs his ministries as an extension of the local Ordinary (bishop) to whom he is subject. He receives “faculties” to administer the sacraments from his bishop. Without these faculties, the sacraments are invalid. So if a priest who “left the bureaucratic Church” (that term makes me cringe!) officiates at a wedding where at least one of the parties is Catholic, the marriage is invalid. (Technically, a Roman Catholic couple confers the Sacrament of Matrimony on each other, but a Catholic pastor or bishop, or a priest or deacon delegated by them, must witness the vows.)

This “ex-priest” could, in fact, hear the confession of a person who is dying and give valid absolution if no other priest was available. The Church makes this special allowance so no one is denied the grace of the Sacrament at the moment of death. That is one benefit of “once a priest, always a priest.”

You ask, “What is the best way to explain to these people that they’ve made a grave mistake in suggesting these are actual RC priests?” The explanation I give here may be a technically correct answer. Or you might appeal to their emotions and describe the heartache they are causing to couples who discover, years down the road, that they have been living in an invalid marriage. However, if you ask me, will any of this change their practice, I doubt it, as long as the business is making money doing what they are doing. If what you mean is, how can you change the behavior of the reception hall, I would say, “Money talks.” You say that “they’re getting lots of our money.” If you, and lots of your Catholic friends, threatened to withdraw you business from them unless they discontinue promoting these men as Catholic priests, it might have an impact.

 

[DOShea]

You might talk to them, but I doubt you’re going to be giving them new information they never heard before. Many of these places are fully aware the priests they use are not in good official standing. But there is a market for them. There are many Catholics out there that aren’t “in good official standing” either, and what they are looking for is all the aesthetics of a Catholic wedding ceremony without all that faith and commitment stuff. Just show up with nice vestments or a stole that doesn’t clash with the colors the bridesmaids are wearing, have lots of candles, and they’re happy.

It’s not really false advertising because anyone with any certificate of ordination as a priest or minister, even one purchased online, can fill out the paperwork and be authorized (recognized) by the state as being able to conduct valid (civil) weddings. Long as the fees are paid and the paperwork records are filled out, the state doesn’t care who does it.

One of my neighbors and good friends is one of those “interfaith” ministers. It’s code for New Age/New Thought, sort of like Church of Oprah. He does these weddings all the time. Often he’s been asked to wear some pretty flashy-looking garb. One mother of the bride was even willing to have some vestments tailor made for him just for this occasion, and the picture she gave him as the model of what she had in mind was a picture of a Catholic Cardinal. He doesn’t ever wear anything other than a black turtle-neck and a grey jacket, because he doesn’t care to get caught up in all the pageantry.

His church building is a former Catholic church building, and has huge stained glass windows. It’s a big draw for Catholics out of communion with the Church, because a wedding there gives the look and feel of a Church ceremony without all the things they view as unpleasant, like not worrying about divorce/remarriage, etc.

 

[fabricdragon]

well, frankly… i woudl highlight the part where it says “marriage is not licit in the eyes of teh church” and show it to the venue… point out that this is true as far as you know of all of them…

and point out that they can be SUED when the wedding couple finds out their “roman Catholic wedding” isnt recognized by the church.

insist they put a disclaimer or something ON the punch page
and if they dont? go to your local papers. and talk about the heartbreak fo finding out you were “scammed” by a fake minister… newspapers love stuff like that

as to “interfaith minister” usually it means Universal Life Church which is a “ordain by mail” church. many people i know have those so they can perfrom marriages for their friends, and also because it lets you get in to see people in the hospital. since hospitals rarely recognize clergy from the innumerable non paperwork religions, like Wicca

of course often the “interfaith ministers” are from heretical groups like the “female Catholic priests”

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

There is an element of truth in their claims. The Sacrament of Holy Orders does leave an indelible marke on the soul, so “once a priest, always a priest” is correct. This man, if he was validly ordained, IS still a priest. But any Catholic priest performs his ministries as an extension of the local Ordinary (bishop) to whom he is subject. He receives “faculties” to administer the sacraments from his bishop. Without these faculties, the sacraments are invalid. So if a priest who “left the bureaucratic Church” (that term makes me cringe!) officiates at a wedding where at least one of the parties is Catholic, the marriage is invalid. (Technically, a Roman Catholic couple confers the Sacrament of Matrimony on each other, but a Catholic pastor or bishop, or a priest or deacon delegated by them, must witness the vows.)

This “ex-priest” could, in fact, hear the confession of a person who is dying and give valid absolution if no other priest was available. The Church makes this special allowance so no one is denied the grace of the Sacrament at the moment of death. That is one benefit of “once a priest, always a priest.”

All this is true except that a couple of sacraments are valid but illicit when celebrated by a priest with no faculties from the local ordinary.

Those sacraments would be Baptism and the Eucharist.

Though for this thread, any marriage would be invalid.

 

[FrDavid96]

…So, after all that, my real question is…

What is the best way to explain to these people that they’ve made a grave mistake in suggesting these are actual RC priests?

The “best way” is to bring this to the attention of the local diocese. Mail the booklet to the local vicar for clergy or the vicar general of the diocese. Attach a note explaining that you were confused by it because these people are advertising themselves as Catholic priests.

There are 2 reasons for this. First of all, the diocese needs to know this is happening. It may seem obvious, and of course, every diocese knows that there are imposter priests out there, but they might not be aware of this particular problem.

Secondly, the diocese has much more authority to deal with it, and much more in the way of resources (like attorneys). A letter from a customer to the reception hall complaining about imposter priests might not carry much weight. The management will most likely respond by simply saying “we allow all clergy to put their names in our book, and it’s not up to us to tell them what they should call themselves, as long as the state recognizes their marriages. If any clergyman doesn’t suit your needs, don’t contract with him.” After all, when you think about it, it’s really not the responsibility of the hall to verify anyone’s religious credentials–a license from the state to solemnize marriages (or whatever other means the state employs) is sufficient from their viewpoint. The hall management will most likely see your letter as nothing more than one person’s religious opinion, and dismiss the whole thing.

On the other hand, something on the bishop’s letterhead, especially if it’s accompanied by a letter from the diocese attorney, will carry considerably more weight. The diocese can also use their resources to go after these former priests in ways that individual persons just can’t do. Not canonically (obviously, canonical penalties mean nothing to them), but legally the diocese can pursue them.

 

[insideitall]

Thank you all for your answers!

I called and spoke with whomever answered the phone, explained a little bit (which I knew wouldn’t get anywhere), and asked if I could speak to someone else about it. I was given the name of a woman to speak to who would be in on Monday, so I will try again then. In the meantime, I suppose I can call the local parish and see who further up the chain I would need to contact.

 

[Spirithound]

What is the best way to explain to these people that they’ve made a grave mistake in suggesting these are actual RC priests?

I agree with Father David, leave this to the diocese to pursue. If they are getting married in a reception hall, they probably don’t much care about what the Church says of their validity.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

If they are getting married in a reception hall, they probably don’t much care about what the Church says of their validity.

Or they have not been properly catechized and don’t know the difference. We have almost two generations of baptized Catholics who have fallen through the cracks/received little or no catechesis (or poor catechesis).

 

[FrDavid96]

Originally Posted by Spirithound
If they are getting married in a reception hall, they probably don’t much care about what the Church says of their validity.

Or they have not been properly catechized and don’t know the difference. We have almost two generations of baptized Catholics who have fallen through the cracks/received little or no catechesis (or poor catechesis).

Yes.

The problem here is that the reception hall is providing a list of so-called Catholic priests to their customers. It’s not difficult to imagine some former (or poorly catechised) Catholics who sincerely want to do what’s right, make arrangements with the hall, contact one of these imposter priests and say “we made mistakes in the past, but we want a proper Catholic wedding, what do we do?” We all know how a priest in that situation would respond. He’ll tell the couple that what he is doing is perfectly legitimate–even if he has to persuade them. He’s not very likely to say “if I perform the ceremony, it’s not a valid marriage”

From the couple’s viewpoint, they are contacting someone whom they think is a legitimate Catholic priest, and they are told (falsely) that the ceremony is legitimate. They don’t know any better, even if they have a genuine desire to know better–because the “priest” isn’t going to tell them the truth.