How to explain not supporting gay marriges?

[Contra_Mundum_1]

Pro-gay-marriage people don’t usually try to force their life choices on others who are not them. They are not suggesting you have gay marriage in your church. If you don’t support them, fine. But they’d rather you don’t impose your beliefs on them.

I want desperately to go to an Islamic country and enforce laws that women are not allowed to wear a burka because I think they are barbaric and a form of torture.
It doesn’t mean I necessarily should…

You sound very naive. To get a good understanding of what will probably happen in your country in not too distant future have a little look at how things look abroad. Here in the UK the pro-gay lobby is getting more and more powerful and is persecuting those who oppose their agenda. Let me give you an example. 3 years after civili partnership was established Cathlc adoption agencies had to close down or agree to work with homosexual couples. At the beginning it was all an option, an agreement to work together and to respect peoples’ values and beliefs. But reality is different when the government takes control and decides to support one group at the expence of others. Now the govt is looking to force churches to perform same sex weddings. This is a work in progress and will probably happen next year or so if things go according to plan.

This brings me to your second point about women in muslim countries. I agree that when going abroad I will respect the customs and laws. However, the gay marriage issue is not happening abroad but at home. People have the right to defend their society. I firmly believe some things are bad and as long as I have the right to vote and express my opinion I will act following my beliefs.

 

[mangy_dog]

I was talking to a lot of friends at school and we were argueing about homosexuality and it seems though that a recurring theme is that they dont understand why we Christians should have the power to pass a law saying that gay men and women cant marry. They say we should just leave it alone and let them make their own choices. I’m Catholic and i understand that God created Marriage for a man and a women but how can i stop others from getting married if thats their choice.

I believe we should be againist gay marriage but how can i explain that i am justified in doing so.

God Bless

You can’t stop someone from doing what is intrinsically wrong. You can only do what we as catholics are called to do from baptism: Renounce, denounce and announce.

Notice that “judge” is not included in there. Often is the case that if we denounce something as wrong or bad, we are told that we are judging. I simply correct the person and indicate that denouncement is not judgement - otherwise police officers and court judges would have the same authority and power.

Plain and simple - homosexual activity is wrong, unnatural and abnormal.

Keep it simple

 

[JRKH]

This is an excellent point and a good way to turn the discussion and force those who support gay ‘marriage’ explain why they do.
I have asked a couple of friends for an explanation of their support and what I got was that it feels like the right thing to do, plus they understood marriage only as a public proclamation of love and commitment. They didn’t offer anything deeper than how they felt about it and how popular culture seeks to define marriage. And they thought this was perfectly acceptable as a basis for their belief, while my belief was seen as irrational and not in step with the times. It makes absolutely no sense and it is therefore crucial to expose such ‘arguments’ for what they are. This may not convince people to change the way they see this issue but it could be a good place to start to get them thinking.

It is good to remember also that, even if they have a deeper and more thought out explanation, it remains but one side of the political view and we have another view…
Then, after sufficient time for reflection and debate, consideration and perhaps some compromise, it is up to the political system where each person has one vote, to decide the matter.
In this the Christian voter has exactly the same rights and opportunities as any other voter. No more and no less.

It should also be noted that, should Gay marriage eventually be approved in most/all places, this would not change the beliefs or outlooks of the Christian community.
Abortion has be legal for nearly 40 years and, by and large, Christians still reject it…and always will.

Peace
James

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

it is up to the political system where each person has one vote, to decide the matter.
In this the Christian voter has exactly the same rights and opportunities as any other voter. No more and no less.

The problem with the version of democracy we have in most western countries is that the vote of the individual doesn’t really matter in the end. Who exactly voted for this kind of thing to happen? Politicians tell lies and then push their own programme when they gain power. This is how we have the rights of gays trumping other rights over here. I’m always amazed to see that people really believe that a certain political system will not betray them but will keep them safe and free. Oppression always happens somewhere else.

 

[JRKH]

The problem with the version of democracy we have in most western countries is that the vote of the individual doesn’t really matter in the end. Who exactly voted for this kind of thing to happen? Politicians tell lies and then push their own programme when they gain power. This is how we have the rights of gays trumping other rights over here. I’m always amazed to see that people really believe that a certain political system will not betray them but will keep them safe and free. Oppression always happens somewhere else.

Indeed no system is immune from such things. However our systems provides the periodic opportunity to remove people from office and thus we are given the opportunity to “adjust course”, so to speak.

As far as politicians lying and pushing their own agenda etc. This certainly can be a problem, but then if they are voted back into office…where does the blame lay?
Who is more corrupt the politician who lied (or changed position) or the people who voted him back into office after discovering the lie? If it was a matter of changing position, perhaps this came about due to changing views among his constituents. Each case is different.

But the bottom line is that, in a truly democratic republic, we have free, personal, and private voting and the majority of voters directly effect who is in office.

The overall corruption of government will tend to reflect a corruption of the people.

Peace
James

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

The overall corruption of government will tend to reflect a corruption of the people.

Very true. How does the saying go? That people get the government they deserve?
I believe that we also have the society we deserve. People abandoning God has led to all sorts of craziness and we will see more of it. The US is still in a better state than wetsern Europe in my opinion, and it is good to take a look at what is going on over here, as a warning.

 

[JimG]

I was talking to a lot of friends at school and we were argueing about homosexuality and it seems though that a recurring theme is that they dont understand why we Christians should have the power to pass a law saying that gay men and women cant marry. They say we should just leave it alone and let them make their own choices. I’m Catholic and i understand that God created Marriage for a man and a women but how can i stop others from getting married if thats their choice.

I believe we should be againist gay marriage but how can i explain that i am justified in doing so.

God Bless

Well, we don’t really have to pass a law saying that homosexuals can’t marry; that’s already been done by nature. Marriage is a union of two individuals who can engage in marital relations. Homosexuals are incapable of engaging in marital relations with each other. Consequently homosexual marriage is a non-entity.

But aside from that, if we wish to simply pretend that square circles and homosexual marriages can really exist, I would personally not like to be around for the final collapse of Western civilization. Advancing age may take care of the problem, but the collapse of marriage is declining at so rapid a rate that perhaps its death, and western civilization’s, will precede mine.

For a more in-depth look at the purposes of sex, I recommend the following article:
touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-06-022-f

 

[thomasf]

Pro-gay-marriage people don’t usually try to force their life choices on others who are not them. They are not suggesting you have gay marriage in your church. They are not suggesting christians become gay (the way many christians suggest they should “become” hetero). They are not trying to outlaw heterosexuals from getting married in the catholic church.
They just want to profess their love for someone legally, separate from you, far away from your church. If you don’t support them, fine. But they’d rather you don’t impose your beliefs on them.
I guess that would be true of any group.
You believe in Jesus, and yet you don’t try to make it a law that Jewish people follow his teachings.
I want desperately to go to an Islamic country and enforce laws that women are not allowed to wear a burka because I think they are barbaric and a form of torture.
It doesn’t mean I necessarily should…

Again, a very naive, specious, and shallow argument. How is it that I’m trying to force my view on anyone? If I get the chance to vote on the subject, I get to vote on it based on whatever criteria I choose. As do people who vote differently. If they vote differently from what I vote, and that view wins, are they not forcing their views on me? If it becomes law that homosexuals get to marry, and their marriage must legally be recognized, and I cannot break that law, then is that not forcing their views on me? As an employer, I would have to legally recognize their ‘marriage’ and offer benefits based on that. Even if it would go against my conscience and my personal religious beliefs. And if I didn’t, I would be punished by the law.

The pro-gay marriage people always want to make it out to be about simply letting two people who ‘love’ each other be together. But it’s not simply about that. When we are talking matters of the law, it gets very complicated. Catholic churches have been forced to stop adoptions because of refusal to recognize gay ‘marriage’. Catholic churches are being forced to recognize legal gay ‘marriages’ and pay benefits, whether or not it goes against their teachings. In Washington DC a Catholic outreach that provided food and shelter to the homeless was shut down because the city refused to help fund it because they did not, and cannot recognize gay ‘marriage’. So the poor suffer all in the name of gay ‘marriage’. And sooner or later, churches WILL be required to perform gay ‘marriages’, it’s only a matter of time.

So yes, you are forcing your views on me. As a catholic that does not support gay ‘marriage’, I don’t go out and forceably stop any gays from attempting ‘marriage’. Unlike your example of forcing women to not wear burkas, I would not dream of doing anything like that to gay people. But I am perfectly within my rights to vote based on my beliefs and conscience, just as every person that votes for gay ‘marriage’ will do. That’s not forcing anything on anyone, that’s simply using your right to vote. And no one can tell me that my faith or personal beliefs are invalid or wrong for basing my voting. Just like no one can tell you that the way you vote is wrong based on what you believe.

What we have here is a typical attack on people of faith by those who have no respect for religious beliefs. Because the non-faithful cannot fathom the idea that the religious might actually be within their rights to vote based on their personal beliefs, it’s okay to attack them because they don’t think the way we do. And that is flat out wrong. It’s arrogance and lack of respect for your fellow citizen to think that a person is wrong for basing their opinion on their faith or personal beliefs. Just because that faith or belief isn’t the same as yours does not mean it’s wrong. And it doesn’t mean anyone is forcing anything on anyone. Other than you hypocritically forcing your beliefs on me.

I have every right to base my opinion on whatever criteria I choose. Just because you disagree does not mean it’s invalid.

Personally, I think basing your opinion on this matter on what makes you ‘feel good’ about the subject, or what the media tells you, or because there’s more gay people on tv now so that means we must be progressive, is a horrible choice and idiotic. But unlike you, I do not discount your right to base your opinion that way or vote how you choose. Please don’t do that to people of faith.

And by the way, in Michigan the people DID get the chance to vote on the subject, and it was resoundingly rejected. For that I am thankful to God.

 

[chris62]

The Catholic church cannot be compelled to perform a same sex marriage, and you do not have to recognize it.

I wonder for how long?

 

[JRKH]

Thomasf…

Great post above.

This is the thing that many do not seem to fathom. That such laws have fallout that stretches beyond the original - somewhat narrow - intent.

Gay people wish to have the freedom and the right to live love and marry, openly and legally in the United States - which is a country founded on personal freedoms.
OK - I can the logic that the secular state, should make some provision for this…At least one Bishop has already offered that the Church could possibly support “civil unions” depending on how such a terms was defined etc.

But what happens to the personal freedoms and institutional freedoms of others if gay marriage laws are passed?
We have already seen some of the fallout - as thomasf has pointed out - where Catholic adoption agencies, Catholic homeless shelters etc. have been forced to shut down for lack of funding because they cannot in good conscience, due to their legally protected religious belief, accept or recognize gay marriage.

IF the gay marriage proponents can craft something that grants the rights and freedoms they wish while respecting and protecting the rights and freedoms of others…I think that Christian Church leaders would be more than willing to look it over.

Peace
James

 

[twoangels]

I was talking to a lot of friends at school and we were argueing about homosexuality and it seems though that a recurring theme is that they dont understand why we Christians should have the power to pass a law saying that gay men and women cant marry. They say we should just leave it alone and let them make their own choices. I’m Catholic and i understand that God created Marriage for a man and a women but how can i stop others from getting married if thats their choice.

I believe we should be againist gay marriage but how can i explain that i am justified in doing so.

God Bless

Honestly I think gay marriage is just the direction the culture is going and I think people act like its the end of the world when its not. Its a symptom of a much larger cultural problem. Our culture’s understanding of what marriage is has been in disrepair for decades now. The gay marriage is just continuing along the same faulty logical process where marriage becomes more about the couple in love and the benefits they get from the state, rather than a civil service.

Marriage is ultimately this. A mature man and woman make a conscious and public commitment to each other with the intent purpose living up to the responsibility of their heterosexual activity. In other words, sex makes babies. Marriage is the choice of a mature man and woman to take on the responsibility of parenthood together. Children meanwhile are not a commodity. They are simply the fruit of the union. And the bond between biological parents and their biological children is profound. I didn’t realize this till I gave birth to my daughter. But it is completely different than taking care of other people’s kids.

Now homosexuals can say that they should be able to adopt, but the thing is adoption exists for the sake of the orphan and those children whose parents have either lost their parental rights or given them away. When a woman uses a sperm bank to get pregnant, she treats a child as a commodity. She devalues the value of the biological father and even biological parenthood. She’s looking mostly for the experience and her motives are selfish.

If you notice, all the problems with gay marriage are not at all exclusive to gays. Our entire heterosexual culture embraces it. Meanwhile our world is saying its ok for heterosexuals to do this and the gays are like “If its ok, than how are we different?” Well they’re not different in their approach to marriage than today’s heterosexuals. The problem is that the heterosexuals have got marriage and parenthood all wrong.

Granted, by speaking the truth like this you’ll offend even more people.

 

[Faith1960]

Unfortunately, I’ve run into this issue myself a few times. I have several Christian friends who are gay and they whole-heartedly believe that God says it’s okay for them to love whoever they want and marry whoever they want. I’ve given up arguing and have taken up praying for them instead. Sometimes that’s all we can do!

I’ve been fortunatel enough to not have gotten into a discussion with anyone gay about this issue, and if I ever do, I think I’d politely bow out of it. I think it’s one of those things that people will go round and round about, neither side convincing the other side they’re wrong.