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tonyrey
Guest
If there is no free will we shall be incapable of love…
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tonyrey
Guest
The misuse of free will does not explain physical evil like disease and deformities which are caused by physical causes like viruses and genetic mutations.
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antonabe
Guest
Free Will does not explain everything.Some are born talented in various ways without traits from the family tree,some deformed,disabled,some are born to poverty some to riches.Of course some are born fair and handsome and some Black and these too are not exxplained by Free Will.The colour of your skin and and certain other features can be explained by Genetics but not all.The question is whether we have faith that this life on Earth is a precursor to the Glory of everlasting life.The crosses we bear in this life and the way we cope with our disabilities,deformities,and other physical and mental crosses that we have to bear as I have mentioned before will help our case in the final judgement…As a Catholic when we say the prayer" I believe" or the Our Father"we dwell on everlasting life and this is an important element of our faith.I agree if you argue on the basis of logic and science everything in Christianity cannot be explained, but as St Augustine said “I understand to believe and I believe to understand”
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thevickinator16
Guest
I agree that it is how you apply your sufferings as to how they apply to you in the long run.
I have met some very happy and motivated people who had disabilities that would break another’s spirit. Yet for them it is just part of life and they do not let themselves sit on a pity pot. These people are genuinely happy and do for others. They are heroes to me. You don’t have to be a saint to suffer and use it for good. The free will involved is in how you apply it to your life.
They teach us about howselves and what truly we aspire to be. At peace with God and full of love for all!
God Bless!
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antonabe
Guest
Wish to make a correction to the quote by St Augustine what he actually said was “Undestanding is a reward of faith,don’t seek to understand that you believe but believe so that you may understand”
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bluemug
Guest
.
God the Almighty could have saved the world without Jesus’ suffering, but God the Father did allow that to happen according to His will.
The Son’s ultimate suffering seems to be “necessary”.
This leads me to think that God allows a non self inflicted suffering (as His will) to happen in order to gain something positive.
When we are at the deepest level of pain/suffering, that’s when we are looking for God.
There come questions like: where is God?, help me God?, etc.
God the Almighty could have saved the world without Jesus’ suffering, but God the Father did allow that to happen according to His will.
The Son’s ultimate suffering seems to be “necessary”.
This leads me to think that God allows a non self inflicted suffering (as His will) to happen in order to gain something positive.
When we are at the deepest level of pain/suffering, that’s when we are looking for God.
There come questions like: where is God?, help me God?, etc.
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thevickinator16
Guest
Hello everyone!
I was looking over the Cateschism today and ran across the word “suffering” and its relationship between us and Jesus.
In 1508-
The Holy Spirit gives to some a special charism of healing so as to make manifest the power of the grace of the risen Lord. But even the most intense prayers do not always obtain the healing of all illnesses. Thus St. Paul must learn from the Lord “my grace is sufficent for you, for my powerful is made perfect in weakness,” and that sufferings to be endured can mean that “in my flesh” I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflications for the sake of His Body, that is, the Church."
We also unite ourselves with the Passion of Christ through suffering. We do this by uniting our hearts with His Most Sacred Heart and that of the Immaculate Mary, Ever Virgin.
Free Will is throughly expained in 1730-1748. It defines the purpose of our free will and how we are accountable through our free will. It is an act of Love given us by God, allowing us to pursue good and through this dedication to good to attain eternal life.
We are by nature sinful, however, we have the seeds of goodness firmly implanted within us. How we chose to cultivate this good determines our reward. We are after all, made in His Image. Free will gives us a choice of which master we want. It is truly easier to serve satan, but look at what the cost is. Eternal suffering.
I would rather do without here on this forsaken planet now, and expierence the true prize after death!
God Bless!
I was looking over the Cateschism today and ran across the word “suffering” and its relationship between us and Jesus.
In 1508-
The Holy Spirit gives to some a special charism of healing so as to make manifest the power of the grace of the risen Lord. But even the most intense prayers do not always obtain the healing of all illnesses. Thus St. Paul must learn from the Lord “my grace is sufficent for you, for my powerful is made perfect in weakness,” and that sufferings to be endured can mean that “in my flesh” I complete what is lacking in Christ’s afflications for the sake of His Body, that is, the Church."
We also unite ourselves with the Passion of Christ through suffering. We do this by uniting our hearts with His Most Sacred Heart and that of the Immaculate Mary, Ever Virgin.
Free Will is throughly expained in 1730-1748. It defines the purpose of our free will and how we are accountable through our free will. It is an act of Love given us by God, allowing us to pursue good and through this dedication to good to attain eternal life.
We are by nature sinful, however, we have the seeds of goodness firmly implanted within us. How we chose to cultivate this good determines our reward. We are after all, made in His Image. Free will gives us a choice of which master we want. It is truly easier to serve satan, but look at what the cost is. Eternal suffering.
I would rather do without here on this forsaken planet now, and expierence the true prize after death!
God Bless!
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AboveAll
Guest
My faith has come to me as a precious gift after many years of study, doubt and experimentation. The so-called problem of suffering is, in my personal view, the only possible aspect of reality that can ever cause me sufficient doubt to weaken my faith.
I thankfully have a very good understanding of personal suffering and where I can make free will applicable I have absolutely no challenges from this concept. This concept of free will can be extended to most of the suffering and misery that we see around us, including strangely enough to some seemingly difficult situations. Some children are born deformed, some seemingly innocent people suffer indeed because of the choices that their parents, or other humans made somewhere earlier in the causal chain. With those instances I have no issue.
I would even like to think that I can “explain” a lot of the natural distasters to myself - plate techtonics, earthquakes etc seem to have some sort of “need” to be there for the benefit of humanity in the bigger picture.
For me personally the problem gets a lot more difficult to understand when we look at the problem of animal suffering. I have read extensively as to explanations on this and I must unfortunately say that I have yet to be convinced (as far as I may be entitled to such conviction, which is of course another question entirely) as to the theological explanation for this horrible, cruel and seemingly senseless suffering. Again, I am not talking about the cases where animal suffering is brought about through the free will choices brought about by man, but by the many examples of suffering where man does not play a role.
This is the only aspect of my faith that needs a lot of work, and which can in the long run cause me great difficulty.
That said, I find a lot of comfort in comparing the Christian “explanation” for the problem of suffering when compared to the “explanations” of other religions or even our friends the atheists.
This is a deep and complex problem, as the majority of posters on this thread have indicated, and we must not even try to find some quick-fix glib soundbite answer. Such efforts are as meaningless as they are offensive.
I thankfully have a very good understanding of personal suffering and where I can make free will applicable I have absolutely no challenges from this concept. This concept of free will can be extended to most of the suffering and misery that we see around us, including strangely enough to some seemingly difficult situations. Some children are born deformed, some seemingly innocent people suffer indeed because of the choices that their parents, or other humans made somewhere earlier in the causal chain. With those instances I have no issue.
I would even like to think that I can “explain” a lot of the natural distasters to myself - plate techtonics, earthquakes etc seem to have some sort of “need” to be there for the benefit of humanity in the bigger picture.
For me personally the problem gets a lot more difficult to understand when we look at the problem of animal suffering. I have read extensively as to explanations on this and I must unfortunately say that I have yet to be convinced (as far as I may be entitled to such conviction, which is of course another question entirely) as to the theological explanation for this horrible, cruel and seemingly senseless suffering. Again, I am not talking about the cases where animal suffering is brought about through the free will choices brought about by man, but by the many examples of suffering where man does not play a role.
This is the only aspect of my faith that needs a lot of work, and which can in the long run cause me great difficulty.
That said, I find a lot of comfort in comparing the Christian “explanation” for the problem of suffering when compared to the “explanations” of other religions or even our friends the atheists.
This is a deep and complex problem, as the majority of posters on this thread have indicated, and we must not even try to find some quick-fix glib soundbite answer. Such efforts are as meaningless as they are offensive.
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tonyrey
Guest
The misuse of free will does not explain physical evil like disease and deformities. They have physical causes like viruses and genetic mutations which existed on this planet millions of years before human beings appeared.
The need is “physical necessity”. No one has ever produced a blueprint of a perfect world because it is a physical impossibility. Even the sceptic David Hume conceded that accidents and disasters are inevitable in a world ruled by general laws and not direct volitions by the Deity.
Many people are extremists: they attribute everything either to Design or Chance. Yet in a vastly complex system like the physical universe undesirable coincidences are bound to occur. Sooner or later a person or an animal is bound to be crushed by a falling rock, malformed by a genetic mutation or infected by a microbe. Within the framework of Design there is an element of chance which leads to harmful consequences for some individuals. The alternative is to create a universe with far less richness, variety, beauty, freedom and joy. We cannot have everything for nothing. There is a price to pay for every gift that we possess… but it is well worth living rather than never having been born.
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Willy_Jose
Guest
It is widely held that suffering comes as a likely consequence of sin (out of the
abuse of free will), with a certain basis in scriptures. In spite of it all, Israel
recognizes that some suffering occurs that is not a result of sin. Indeed they did not hesitate to ask hard questions: “Why do you sleep Lord?..why forget our pain and misery?” (Psalm 44:24-25). In the account of the Man Born Blind (John 9) the disciples
ask: “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”.
Jesus answers “Neither he nor his parents sinned, he was born blind so that God’s power might be shown”. And again, the Book of Job seems to debunk the suggestion that where there is suffering, there must have been sin. When Job finally demands an explanation from God, the only answer the tradition can make is a deeply moving affirmation of the mystery of the Creator (Job 38-41). Job’s questions about suffering have not been answered, but now we realize that it was not essential.
“I know that you are powerful; no plans of yours can be thwarted. I spoke of things I did not understand, too wonderful for me to know. My ears had heard of you, but now my eyes have seen you…”. (Job 42).
What proved essential is that Job preserved this trust even as he courageously looked for an answer, and he was rewarded in the end by the just God.
"my servant Job has spoken properly of me"
abuse of free will), with a certain basis in scriptures. In spite of it all, Israel
recognizes that some suffering occurs that is not a result of sin. Indeed they did not hesitate to ask hard questions: “Why do you sleep Lord?..why forget our pain and misery?” (Psalm 44:24-25). In the account of the Man Born Blind (John 9) the disciples
ask: “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”.
Jesus answers “Neither he nor his parents sinned, he was born blind so that God’s power might be shown”. And again, the Book of Job seems to debunk the suggestion that where there is suffering, there must have been sin. When Job finally demands an explanation from God, the only answer the tradition can make is a deeply moving affirmation of the mystery of the Creator (Job 38-41). Job’s questions about suffering have not been answered, but now we realize that it was not essential.
“I know that you are powerful; no plans of yours can be thwarted. I spoke of things I did not understand, too wonderful for me to know. My ears had heard of you, but now my eyes have seen you…”. (Job 42).
What proved essential is that Job preserved this trust even as he courageously looked for an answer, and he was rewarded in the end by the just God.
"my servant Job has spoken properly of me"
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tonyrey
Guest
A timely reminder
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Frankk
Guest
But what about children born with horrendous and painful conditions where the choices their parents [or others] may have made have had no deleterious effect on the unborn child and who have other, perfectly normal children?
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antonabe
Guest
There are also innocent Catholics killed in Karachi and Orissa in India.Their only crime was that they believed in Jesus Christ.A report has just been received that a eleven year old Child was killed in Taiser,Karachi and women molested,houses and Churches burnt.A group of people shouting proTaliban slogan had entered their Town and done this becuase they were Catholics.Just as much as Almighty God did not stop the cruxifixion of Jesus Christ these innocent Catholics too pay the supreme sacrifice but theirs will be the greater reward in Heaven.
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mystagogia
Guest
I’m really at a loss to understand why the problem of suffering is so hard for so many people.
You have suffering in this world because you have evil in this world. That evil was introduced by Man and Satan. It has nothing to do with God, who has no part of evil.
It seems some folks want to assign blame for existence of evil and suffering on God, under the theory that if He were omnipotent he could have arranged for it never to have happened.
But God gave us free will, because without it we’d be automatons. Yes, he could have prevented us from ever contemplating or knowing evil and suffering. We’d be the worse for it, because we’d always be in the sunny uplands by the pool. We’d never understand morality, ethics, the concept of goodness or God Hiimself.
Why is this so hard to understand, or what do I not understand?
You have suffering in this world because you have evil in this world. That evil was introduced by Man and Satan. It has nothing to do with God, who has no part of evil.
It seems some folks want to assign blame for existence of evil and suffering on God, under the theory that if He were omnipotent he could have arranged for it never to have happened.
But God gave us free will, because without it we’d be automatons. Yes, he could have prevented us from ever contemplating or knowing evil and suffering. We’d be the worse for it, because we’d always be in the sunny uplands by the pool. We’d never understand morality, ethics, the concept of goodness or God Hiimself.
Why is this so hard to understand, or what do I not understand?
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Frankk
Guest
I think what is difficult to understand [for me anyway] is why an innocent new born needs to suffer so that I can reap the benefit of understanding morality, ethics and so on.
The free will point doesn’t help. The innocent new born has no free will.
And, of course, there is a difference between evil and suffering. Certainly, evil produces suffering but suffering can result without evil being involved.
The free will point doesn’t help. The innocent new born has no free will.
And, of course, there is a difference between evil and suffering. Certainly, evil produces suffering but suffering can result without evil being involved.
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antonabe
Guest
I agree sometimes it is not possible to explain why innocent new borns suffer.However if they suffer due to indiscretions of the the pregnant mother can you blame God.?During pregnancy there are certain precautions that a would be mother has to take avoiding certain drugs,excessive alocohol etc and in such a situation the infant may suffer.Of course there could be normal situations where a child could be born deformed but unfortunately we cannot explain everything but the element of faith is important in Catholism.
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KyivAndrew
Guest
Because we are human…that’s why and pain, personal or vicarious, hurts - even if we understand it. As I mentioned in a previous post, C.S. Lewis understood the problem of pain but, nevertheless, questioned God’s purposes in the end when faced with his wife’s suffering. Everyone who claims to be human will live through some torment, and some will have unbelievable torment. Lewis questioned God! And for that matter, so did Jesus Christ hanging on the Cross in exclaiming: “My Lord, My Lord, Why hast Thou Forsaken Me!”
Pain’s sting is real and it does nobody any good in the end to list off freewill when they are in the midst of excruciating pain. What is offered is Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, who experienced all the pain of creation exactly as we have experienced it. You must attach any inordinate suffering or pain and unite it with Christ’s for in Him is our salvation.
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KyivAndrew
Guest
Absolutely, and only God knows the exact answer to this. We have the Cross, our Faith but Faith is also a constant struggle; it it wasn’t it would not be faith, but just a given fact.
In creating us, we learn from the Bible that ALL Creation yearns for the Saviour, so creation, the sudden tsunamis, tornados, hurricanes are all part of the Fall of Creation.
Arthur Koestler, who was not Christian, was a famous English writer, who despite personal demons, saw in Ukraine in the 1930s under Stalinism first hand Atheist Communism’s genocide of the Ukrainians with Terror-Famine as the new Molloch. Koestler witnessed the death of hundreds of innocent children, women, old, men, when Stalin sealed off Ukraine’s borders to the world in punishment for Ukraine not wanting to become Sovietized. Perhaps up to seven million died excruciatingly painful and slow deaths of hunger where their bodies bloated and limbs collapsed. Ukraine became a state-imposed madhouse where cannibalism began to set in as mothers, out of their minds, began boiling their children or visa versa. Children were shot by KGB militia for venturing to the wheatfields for sustenance. Slowly, month by month, any movement in any village houses began to vanish until all became death. Robert Conquest called the Ukraine of this time as one gigantic Bergen-Belsen. Even birds or rats could no longer be found as the Hunger Demon took hold.
Vassily Grossman in writing of this time related how those families with love in their home lasted the longest but, in the end, even love was not strong enough to save them. These very religious people with their icons in their homes and full trust in Christ ultimately succumbed.
I always remember, however, Koestler’s title for his book The Invisible Writing. From this I personally take that there is perhaps an invisible writing to our lives, written into our travails and triumphs and loss, that no suffering was ever undergone without some purpose, and that in the end of ends, when and should we get to see our Maker, this invisible writing will become visible and ALL will be understood. God will reveal to us the invisible writing and we will no longer see as if through a glass half-darkly.
As Christ said: Blessed are those who have not seen yet believe!
God Bless All, especially those in most need of Healing.
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mystagogia
Guest
Don’t you folks understand that when you look at that disadvantaged child who is born deformed that you are in the exact same place that he is in?
You ask yourselves what in the world did that child do to deserve this, but you should also ask yourselves what in the world did you do to deserve this. You are both in the exact same place.
We are all born fallen, sinful, deformed, with an imperfect nature. Why are you surprised that this does not have a physical manifestation?
The tragically deformed or otherwise doomed child who is born in the world is reflection of your own face. Don’t you see that? Why do you insist that such a child is a special case, for he is not. Not at all. He is your brother, in the exact same fate as you.
Awake. See that your situation is not superior to his. His, in fact, might even be preferable.
In fact, I think it is.
You ask yourselves what in the world did that child do to deserve this, but you should also ask yourselves what in the world did you do to deserve this. You are both in the exact same place.
We are all born fallen, sinful, deformed, with an imperfect nature. Why are you surprised that this does not have a physical manifestation?
The tragically deformed or otherwise doomed child who is born in the world is reflection of your own face. Don’t you see that? Why do you insist that such a child is a special case, for he is not. Not at all. He is your brother, in the exact same fate as you.
Awake. See that your situation is not superior to his. His, in fact, might even be preferable.
In fact, I think it is.
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antonabe
Guest
QUOTE "Because we are human…that’s why and pain, personal or vicarious, hurts - even if we understand it. As I mentioned in a previous post, C.S. Lewis understood the problem of pain but, nevertheless, questioned God’s purposes in the end when faced with his wife’s suffering. Everyone who claims to be human will live through some torment, and some will have unbelievable torment. Lewis questioned God! And for that matter, so did Jesus Christ hanging on the Cross in exclaiming: “My Lord, My Lord, Why hast Thou Forsaken Me!”
Pain’s sting is real and it does nobody any good in the end to list off freewill when they are in the midst of excruciating pain. What is offered is Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, who experienced all the pain of creation exactly as we have experienced it. You must attach any inordinate suffering or pain and unite it with Christ’s for in Him is our salvation." UNQUOTE
Did Jesus Christ exclaim "My Lord My Lord, Why Have You Forsaken Me " out of despair and resignation or was it to fulfil a prophecy?If you read Psalm 22 this is considered the Psalm of the cruxifixion and begins with these words “My Lord,My Lord Why have you forsaken me”.But Jesus Christ in his human nature did say at the Garden of Gethsamane "Let this cup be taken away from me but if it is thy will let it be done"We too must abide by Gods will as if some deformity or weakness is given to us it is his will and it should be done
Pain’s sting is real and it does nobody any good in the end to list off freewill when they are in the midst of excruciating pain. What is offered is Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, who experienced all the pain of creation exactly as we have experienced it. You must attach any inordinate suffering or pain and unite it with Christ’s for in Him is our salvation." UNQUOTE
Did Jesus Christ exclaim "My Lord My Lord, Why Have You Forsaken Me " out of despair and resignation or was it to fulfil a prophecy?If you read Psalm 22 this is considered the Psalm of the cruxifixion and begins with these words “My Lord,My Lord Why have you forsaken me”.But Jesus Christ in his human nature did say at the Garden of Gethsamane "Let this cup be taken away from me but if it is thy will let it be done"We too must abide by Gods will as if some deformity or weakness is given to us it is his will and it should be done
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