How to explain the promises of the Brown Scapular to "Bible-Only" Christians?

[Church_Militant]

DavidB:

I hadn’t even mentioned anything about worshipping graven images. The “point” I was making is the understanding that the promises of the scapular are taught in a way that leads most to believe that they can have unconfessed mortal sin in their life when they die, yet Mary will forgive that sin and guarantee they’ll be in Heaven

if they are wearing the scapular at their death. I was told that I was wrong and that people don’t believe that at all. Here’s proof that I was correct in my understanding.

DavidWhat proof? Your own restatements of the same misbegotten allegations? What you state above is perhaps what you WISH Catholics were taught about this devotion, but it is not true and you are obstinant to persist in your allegations.

The Blessed Virgin does not forgive sins. That is not the teaching concerning the brown scapular nor of the Catholic Church. It appears to be your belief, which has been plainly & repeatedly shown to be wrong.

What part of that don’t you get?http://bestsmileys.com/signs9/21.gif

 

[DavidB]

Church Militant:

What proof? Your own restatements of the same misbegotten allegations? What you state above is perhaps what you WISH Catholics were taught about this devotion, but it is not true and you are obstinant to persist in your allegations.

The “proof” I was referring to was Mcliffor’s statement above about being taught as a Catholic that unconfessed mortal sins are forgiven as long as one is wearing the scapular upon death. I was taught the same exact thing as were others in my family who I confirmed this with this morning. It’s clear that I am not the only one who’s been taught this and that it’s not just some “false allegation” I keep “repeating”.

 

[DavidB]

Church Militant:

As for the assertion that your church is in communion with the Catholic Church, that is not so. The fact that the ordinations are illicit means that you have nothing that we share with you aside from the essential Christian baptism, least of all communion, since we are not allowed to receive in such a church.I never made a claim that we were in communion, didn’t even imply it. I was just correcting your errors, which I noticed you didn’t acknowledge.

 

[Church_Militant]

DavidB:

I never made a claim that we were in communion, didn’t even imply it. I was just correcting your errors, which I noticed you didn’t acknowledge.

There’d have to be some errors of mine to acknowlege. I was not taught such foolishness and since I neither believe it nor is it the teaching of the Catholic Church (Nothing in the CCC or any excathedra documents say that), there is nothing to your allegation…and no “false gospel”.

You can continue to bang away at this straw man if you wish…but the question has been clearly and correctly answered.

Accept it and move on…

 

[Fiat]

DavidB:
The “proof” I was referring to was Mcliffor’s statement above about being taught as a Catholic that unconfessed mortal sins are forgiven as long as one is wearing the scapular upon death. I was taught the same exact thing as were others in my family who I confirmed this with this morning. It’s clear that I am not the only one who’s been taught this and that it’s not just some “false allegation” I keep “repeating”.

DavidB:
Perhaps you should re-read Mcliffor’s post (post #22). Nowhere in his post does he say that he was taught that unconfessed mortal sins are forgiven as long as one is wearing the scapular upon death!

Fiat

 

[DavidB]

Church Militant:

There’d have to be some errors of mine to acknowlege. I was not taught such foolishness and since I neither believe it nor is it the teaching of the Catholic Church (Nothing in the CCC or any excathedra documents say that), there is nothing to your allegation…and no “false gospel”.

You can continue to bang away at this straw man if you wish…but the question has been clearly and correctly answered.

Accept it and move on…

My it’s difficult to keep you focused on the right issue. The errors I was talking about was your wrong statements about my denomination and it’s beliefs with respect to communion and birth control. Do you have problems recalling the trail of thinking, or are you just pre-determined to jump on whatever I say regardless if you’re making any sense?

 

[DavidB]

Fiat:

DavidB:
Perhaps you should re-read Mcliffor’s post (post #22). Nowhere in his post does he say that he was taught that unconfessed mortal sins are forgiven as long as one is wearing the scapular upon death!

Fiat

OK, Here’s what he/she said hint - I’m bolding the parts where he/she states you can be in mortal sin]:

“I thought that if you wore the scapular and were in a state of mortal sin, the Blessed Virgin would provide the necessary grace at the moment of death for true contrition, essentially protecting someone from hell. Isn’t that why it’s such a popular devotion? Isn’t that also why we wear it in the shower and pool?”

What part of that doesn’t line up with what I said? Is it just because he “thought” it but didn’t specifically say he was “taught” it?

 

[Fiat]

DavidB:

OK, Here’s what he/she said hint - I’m bolding the parts where he/she states you can be in mortal sin]:

“I thought that if you wore the scapular and were in a state of mortal sin, the Blessed Virgin would provide the necessary grace at the moment of death for true contrition, essentially protecting someone from hell. Isn’t that why it’s such a popular devotion? Isn’t that also why we wear it in the shower and pool?”

What part of that doesn’t line up with what I said? Is it just because he “thought” it but didn’t specifically say he was “taught” it?

DavidB:
The language you kindly bold-faced very clearly indicates that the Blessed Virgin would provide the necessary grace, but WE, INDIVIDUALLY must always accept and cooperate with grace for it to be effective on our soul. This is, always has been, and always will be Catholic teaching. You conclude from this statement that sin is automatically forgiven, and that simply is not stated. The promise is that grace is provided!

Fiat

 

[DavidB]

Fiat:

DavidB:
The language you kindly bold-faced very clearly indicates that the Blessed Virgin would provide the necessary grace, but WE, INDIVIDUALLY must always accept and cooperate with grace for it to be effective on our soul. This is, always has been, and always will be Catholic teaching. You conclude from this statement that sin is automatically forgiven, and that simply is not stated. The promise is that grace is provided!

Fiat

“At the moment” of death? So if an individual had mortally sinned, but hadn’t had a chance to get to confession and then dies instantly from any one of a dozen causes. How would the grace offered/grace accepted scenario work? Practically speaking that is. Isn’t it too late after one dies to repent from mortal sin? Isn’t the definition of mortal sin meaning that one is sent immediately to Hell, do not pass ‘go’, do not collect $200? So would one die and suddenly realize in some spiritual state immediately afterwards that “oops”, I skipped Mass 2 months ago to play golf and never got to confession and then Mary appears to him and offers to go to Jesus on his behalf and acquire a grace pass to cleanse him of that mortal sin before going any further and then he has some sort of choice in the matter in which he could theoretically refuse her offer?

Can you see why I concluded what I did? It sounds OK from the 40,000 foot view, but doesn’t make much sense in reality.

David

 

[Fiat]

DavidBI skipped Mass 2 months ago to play golf and never got to confession and then Mary appears to him and offers to go to Jesus on his behalf and acquire a grace pass to cleanse him of that mortal sin before going any further and then he has some sort of choice in the matter in which he could theoretically refuse her offer?:

Are you a calvinist?

Fiat

 

[Lillith]

David…
I, personally understand your confusion. I think it stems from a lack of understanding about what Catholics believe concerning confession and the forgiveness of sins. While it is a comfort to hear and know that sins are forgiven…a comfort that Jesus wanted us to have when he left the apostales with the power to bind and loose, there is such a thing as a perfect act of contrition…and Catholics have access to forgiveness straight from God…if right before a person was to die he realized he skipped mass and truely felt sorry for offending God, he will be forgiven. It has everything to do with what is in your heart.

Lillith:

Mark 5:21-34…which I’ll paraphrase. The Daughter of Jarius; the woman with a hemorrhage…Jarius came to get Jesus to cure his little daughter…as they were pushing through a crowd There was a woman her suffered a hemorrage for years uncured. She had heard about Jesus and came up behind him in a crowd and put her hand to his cloak. “If I just touch his clothing” she thought “I shall get well”…Jesus was conscious at once that the healing power had gone from him…wheeling around he began to ask “Who touched my clothing?”…the woman was fearful but told the truth and Jesus said “daughter it is your faith that has healed you Go in peace and be free of thais illness!”

It is under this premise that the brown scapular works. We can get twisted and turn the argument to Apparitions…are they true or not…but that doesn’t really explain the thing…but to me, this does.

The scapular is a faith article. To wear it you are demonstrating a great faith…if you are wearing it out of superstition…to try to trick God…I am sure it will not do.

 

[Sir_Knight]

“At the moment” of death? So if an individual had mortally sinned, but hadn’t had a chance to get to confession and then dies instantly from any one of a dozen causes. How would the grace offered/grace accepted scenario work? Practically speaking that is. Isn’t it too late after one dies to repent from mortal sin? Isn’t the definition of mortal sin meaning that one is sent immediately to Hell, do not pass ‘go’, do not collect $200? So would one die and suddenly realize in some spiritual state immediately afterwards that “oops”, I skipped Mass 2 months ago to play golf and never got to confession and then Mary appears to him and offers to go to Jesus on his behalf and acquire a grace pass to cleanse him of that mortal sin before going any further and then he has some sort of choice in the matter in which he could theoretically refuse her offer?

Can you see why I concluded what I did? It sounds OK from the 40,000 foot view, but doesn’t make much sense in reality.

David

And exactly when is the moment of death? Is it when the heart stops? People have been brought back to life after their heart stopped beating for a couple of minutes. Is it when there is no brain activity? Again, people have returned to normal lives even after they registered no brain activity. Is it, when all bodily functions stops? If so, that takes several minutes even after a person has “died”. We don’t know exactly when the soul leaves the body. It could be that a person has is “dead” but not all of their bodily functions have stopped and their soul is still with the body. In the physical world, that period of time might only be a few minutes or even a few seconds but to the soul, it may be an eternity as times speeds up or slows down. The soul may become conscious of all of their past faults and be blessed with the special grace to have perfect contrition for those sins – thus being saved from the fires of hell.

Not arguing that this IS what happens but merely pointing out that none of us know exactly what happens at the moment of death and exactly when “death” really occurs and when the soul leaves the body.

I’ve seen priests administer the last rites to people that were already dead but whose bodies were still warm in the hope that the soul has yet to leave the body and the person wasn’t “dead” yet. The same logic can be applied to the Brown Scapular.

 

[DavidB]

Fiat:

Are you a calvinist?

Fiat

He he he, I first read your response and thought you asked if I were a chauvinist. I’m sitting here thinking, “Gee, I don’t think so, I hope not . . .” and then turned back and re-read it CALVINist, ohhhh! No. I’m not a once saved always saved person. I actually do believe in mortal vs venial sins. Still working on whether or not I accept the concept of purgatory. Trying to keep an open mind.

David

 

[DavidB]

Lillith:

David…
I, personally understand your confusion. I think it stems from a lack of understanding about what Catholics believe concerning confession and the forgiveness of sins. While it is a comfort to hear and know that sins are forgiven…a comfort that Jesus wanted us to have when he left the apostales with the power to bind and loose, there is such a thing as a perfect act of contrition…and Catholics have access to forgiveness straight from God…if right before a person was to die he realized he skipped mass and truely felt sorry for offending God, he will be forgiven. It has everything to do with what is in your heart.

The scapular is a faith article. To wear it you are demonstrating a great faith…if you are wearing it out of superstition…to try to trick God…I am sure it will not do.

Hi Lillith. So in your view the scapular is more like a jewelry cross, something hung around your neck to proclaim and remind one of your faith? If that’s all there was to it, I wouldn’t have any objections whatsoever. In fact, that’s what I was trying to get at early in the thread. If one has to be in right relationship with the Church and free from mortal sin in order to be saved even with the scapular on, then what purpose does the scapular serve since we already have God’s promise to do exactly that. Scripture says we can be assured of our salvation by being baptized into Christ and living for Jesus our entire lives. As we do that and don’t have unconfessed mortal sin, we can be assured of salvation upon death. Right?

David

 

[DavidB]

Sir Knight:

And exactly when is the moment of death? Is it when the heart stops? People have been brought back to life after their heart stopped beating for a couple of minutes. Is it when there is no brain activity? Again, people have returned to normal lives even after they registered no brain activity. Is it, when all bodily functions stops? If so, that takes several minutes even after a person has “died”. We don’t know exactly when the soul leaves the body. It could be that a person has is “dead” but not all of their bodily functions have stopped and their soul is still with the body. In the physical world, that period of time might only be a few minutes or even a few seconds but to the soul, it may be an eternity as times speeds up or slows down. The soul may become conscious of all of their past faults and be blessed with the special grace to have perfect contrition for those sins – thus being saved from the fires of hell.

Not arguing that this IS what happens but merely pointing out that none of us know exactly what happens at the moment of death and exactly when “death” really occurs and when the soul leaves the body.

I’ve seen priests administer the last rites to people that were already dead but whose bodies were still warm in the hope that the soul has yet to leave the body and the person wasn’t “dead” yet. The same logic can be applied to the Brown Scapular.

Agreed. Death is not exactly fully understood and drawing absolutes about when something is too late is pointless.

By the way, not to get this off topic, but isn’t “last rites” changed back to “anointing the sick” (the original sacrament) and the focus shifted to pray for healing rather than to pray for cleansing of sin at death? I thought I read that somewhere.

David

 

[Lillith]

DavidB:

Hi Lillith. So in your view the scapular is more like a jewelry cross, something hung around your neck to proclaim and remind one of your faith? If that’s all there was to it, I wouldn’t have any objections whatsoever. In fact, that’s what I was trying to get at early in the thread. If one has to be in right relationship with the Church and free from mortal sin in order to be saved even with the scapular on, then what purpose does the scapular serve since we already have God’s promise to do exactly that. Scripture says we can be assured of our salvation by being baptized into Christ and living for Jesus our entire lives. As we do that and don’t have unconfessed mortal sin, we can be assured of salvation upon death. Right?

David

Well…I feel that it is more than Jewelry. To me it is more like prayer. Physical prayer…along the same lines of the sign of the cross with baptismal water, which renews our baptismal promises.

It is a physical manifestation of our faith.

 

[Subrosa]

DavidB:

I hadn’t even mentioned anything about worshipping graven images. The “point” I was making is the understanding that the promises of the scapular are taught in a way that leads most to believe that they can have unconfessed mortal sin in their life when they die, yet Mary will forgive that sin and guarantee they’ll be in Heaven if they are wearing the scapular at their death. I was told that I was wrong and that people don’t believe that at all. Here’s proof that I was correct in my understanding.

David

Dave -

A person wearing a scapular is such a conservative that this person would understand the implication of mortal sin. As such this person will have confessed properly. Also, this person must be a member of the Carmelites, or the promise does not apply.

Besides that, a person who is in a state of mortal sin would (most likely) not be wearing a scapular. That person simply would not have any concept of it or respect for it.

The point is that wearing a scapular is an act of devotion. It’s like going to church. It is something one does in order to maintain thier faith. It is an outward sign of devotion and conviction.

The Brown scapular is not a magic charm that protects you, an automatic guarantee of salvation or an excuse for not living up to christian standards. It is a sign which has been approved by the church. It stands for a persons decision to follow Jesus as Mary did, open oneself to God, be guided by faith, hope and love. It is a devotion to prayer and an openness to find God in all events in our lives.

BTW, What do you think mortal sins are? (A real question) Can you give any examples?

Subrosa

 

[Subrosa]

DavidB:

He he he, I first read your response and thought you asked if I were a chauvinist. I’m sitting here thinking, “Gee, I don’t think so, I hope not . . .” and then turned back and re-read it CALVINist, ohhhh! No. I’m not a once saved always saved person. I actually do believe in mortal vs venial sins. Still working on whether or not I accept the concept of purgatory. Trying to keep an open mind.

David

Hi Dave -

I see on your profile that you are Episcopal. This says to me that you consider some of the books in the Catholic bible to be apocryphal. Even so, If you have a look at 2 Maccabees 12:38-46. You will see one part of the basis of Purgatory.

Just for the record, Purgatory is not a place, per se. It is a state of the soul that is undergoing purification. The above verses document the Jewish practice of praying for the dead. Pay close attention to verses 42 & 46. They expound the priciple of being released from a state of sin.

Here’s a link, just in case you don’t have a copy handy! http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/2maccabees/2maccabees12.htm

God bless,
Subrosa

 

[hurst]

DavidB:

So in your view the scapular is more like a jewelry cross, something hung around your neck to proclaim and remind one of your faith?

It is more than that because there are specific promises attached.

DavidB:

If that’s all there was to it, I wouldn’t have any objections whatsoever.

Only because you wish to minimize this great treasure which you have rejected, after having once accepted it.

DavidB:

In fact, that’s what I was trying to get at early in the thread. If one has to be in right relationship with the Church and free from mortal sin in order to be saved even with the scapular on, then what purpose does the scapular serve since we already have God’s promise to do exactly that.

I thought I answered this question already. Is your heart closed? Are you really asking these questions to receive an answer, or are they only rhetorical as if to prove your point?

You do not need to be “free from mortal sin” to benefit from the scapular! It is precisely what will help you out of it, in case you are sadly fallen. Not of itself, but because it is an act of faith and trust in Mary’s maternal care for you. You still have to hope and try.

This is why Mary is compared to the moon, which being elevated above the earth, reflects the light of justice in mercy upon those living in the night of sin.

But we must allow ourselves to rely on that light. It would be a certain bad attitude to criticize the moon and say we really only want to honor the sun. The moon honors the sun, and it is likewise appropriate to honor the moon.

DavidB:

Scripture says we can be assured of our salvation by being baptized into Christ and living for Jesus our entire lives. As we do that and don’t have unconfessed mortal sin, we can be assured of salvation upon death. Right?
David

Correct. You do not need the scapular to be saved if you are doing these things.

However, is it not your miserable state of trying to justify yourself for having rejected the most gracious and loving gift of our lovely Mother in heaven, that you are denigrating this treasure in the sight of all who wish to be consoled by its promise?!

Matt 18:3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Do you refuse to be a child of Mary? Do you refuse to be a child of the Church? If so, then you are refusing to enter the Kingdom of God right now, no matter how much scripture you might know.

hurst

 

[hurst]

Subrosa:

… It stands for a persons decision to follow Jesus as Mary did, open oneself to God, be guided by faith, hope and love. It is a devotion to prayer and an openness to find God in all events in our lives. …

No, it does not mean this. You appear to be changing the focus as if that would appease our separated brethren. The focus is on Mary, even as we enjoy the grace of God in this. Nevermind that we are attacked as if we “replaced Jesus” with Mary. That is just them trying to justify themselves for rejecting a “cup of water” given in His Name, and then complaining because we love Mary for her help.

hurst