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Spyridon
Guest
@ChunkMonk
Too much questioning.
A Jesuit hit squad has been activated and sent to your location.
Too much questioning.
A Jesuit hit squad has been activated and sent to your location.
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OneSheep
Guest
Yes.
Are you suggesting that I am not in tune with people who hold something against him?
That would be a projection of intent. I have no intent to condescend. All of us feel resentment towards someone else at times.
Are you thinking that I have a different motive than encouraging forgiveness?
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OneSheep
Guest
Well, I can’t do anything about your judgment of dishonesty, other than to tell you that my intent is sincere.
In terms of division, I am glad that we share a concern about divisiveness. I find the differences over Pope Francis divisive, and I am trying to do something about that here.
Do you hold anything against him?
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Cruciferi
Guest
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En route now!
En route now!
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Cruciferi
Guest
We got Jesuit K-9 coming too 
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graciew
Guest
No.
( I know you did not ask me. but no)
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ChunkMonk
Guest
I’m just wondering why you feel the need for this thread. Okay, some people have issues with Pope Francis. Others think that simply repeating “He is the Pope” is a sufficient defense for him. Exactly how is making this thread going to help unify those two people?
All I see is people who have issues with Pope Francis giving what they can without being banned and other group I mentioned viciously attacking them and piously declaring themselves the good children who listen. The people who would viciously attack the Pope are not allowed on CAF or they would be here too.
This near-worship of ‘dialogue’ that modern Catholics have begun to display is really stupid and self-defeating. I already have a confessor. When I believe I have judged the Holy Father rashly or without mercy I will confess it to him. When I think my judgement is within the bounds of acceptability I won’t. Being encouraged to ‘air my grievances’ to a group that will either ban or attack me for doing so, or nod their heads in agreement and potentially help me along in what could be sinful is not helpful, and smacks to me of a trap.
I won’t pretend to know ypur motives in creating this, but I will question the wisdom of it.
All I see is people who have issues with Pope Francis giving what they can without being banned and other group I mentioned viciously attacking them and piously declaring themselves the good children who listen. The people who would viciously attack the Pope are not allowed on CAF or they would be here too.
This near-worship of ‘dialogue’ that modern Catholics have begun to display is really stupid and self-defeating. I already have a confessor. When I believe I have judged the Holy Father rashly or without mercy I will confess it to him. When I think my judgement is within the bounds of acceptability I won’t. Being encouraged to ‘air my grievances’ to a group that will either ban or attack me for doing so, or nod their heads in agreement and potentially help me along in what could be sinful is not helpful, and smacks to me of a trap.
I won’t pretend to know ypur motives in creating this, but I will question the wisdom of it.
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Boler
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The irony is I’m not sure you’re aware you just asked a loaded question.
When you say “forgive”, does that mean a mistake or wrong has been commited? Because…
It seems the “questions” or criticisms you’ve invited others to bring have been met with saccharine counter-arguments. So, yes, I’m wondering if in your mind, any criticality must be either a misunderstanding or pent-up resentment and nothing else.
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graciew
Guest
Not before he lets me know how he does to pull out a meme so quickly,please,Super Luigi!
He is unbelievably quick…
He is unbelievably quick…
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Cruciferi
Guest
I can churn em out in under a minute if necessary! :grinning_face_with_smiling_eyes:
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OneSheep
Guest
Great question! For those that actually hold something against Pope Francis, this is a place where they can voice such resentment without being judged; that is the goal. For those that are merely trying to defend Pope Francis without addressing hurt or anger people genuinely feel, I would like people to be charitable, which means listening to people. I hope you can help me with this.
I want this thread to be a place of forgiveness, building community. Hopefully people will check the vicious attacks and simply ask questions, as I requested in the OP.
Hmmm. I see what you are saying. This involves some trust, and you have no reason to trust me, I understand.
I do not aim to be a confessor. I am only trying to help people understand and forgive. If you read my past topics, I have started many such “how to forgive” threads.
Well, I am a fool. Hopefully I will learn something!
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Hope_Philomena
Guest
I’m the meme queen, never doubt my powers
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Teek
Guest
I can think of a lot of ways to say what you think he meant, and in none of them would I say what he said without saying MORE. There wasn’t a place in what he actually said that qualified the phrase “God does not exist.”
The following reply (from a different thread) could be an answer that explains how you could say what he said and still have good intentions—maybe it wasn’t what he really said. @Gorgias
This one gives a similar explanation for how it could be misinterpreted or even be understandable as it sits because of its context.Gorgias said:I would say that it’s a translation from another language, spoken by someone in their particular linguistic idiom.
If I were speaking in English, I might say it differently. But then, if I did that, then I wouldn’t be ‘quoting’ so much as ‘re-expressing’, now would I?
This next one makes the most sense as far as looking at who the Holy Father is and using that as a lens for interpreting what he said: @ChunkMonkJoe_5859 said:
These replies could explain why he said (or didn’t really say) what it seemed he did.ChunkMonk said:
These three responses can help a person (even a stone headed person who is really struggling with it, even still) understand how the quote be said the way it was good intention.
I think it is safe to say that I would never say those things, because of how I reacted and what I thought it meant. For me to say it would have been terribly NOT good will. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that no one else could say it with good will.
I still, so very strongly, wish it had not been said in that way.
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Usagi
Guest
Pope Francis in that article seems entirely orthodox, undoubtedly disappointing some of his more permissive fans among the general populace.
Were you citing it as an example of him having done or said something wrong?
Were you citing it as an example of him having done or said something wrong?
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Edward_H
Guest
When he ceases to stir confusion…when he comes to his senses…as the prodigal son passage goes in Scripture.
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OneSheep
Guest
I’m just guessing here, but I think Pope Francis himself would agree with you. To just leave that statement “hanging there” is a bit counterproductive in his position!
I think the context helps a lot, as well as looking at the intent behind the statement. And then, projecting intent has a lot to do with trust, right? Did you see my post 122?We all try to say something we think is really profound sometimes, and end up running straight into the human condition… reception is never predictable, I think.
You sure don’t seem to be holding anything against him, it’s more like you wish he would choose his wording differently sometimes.
This statement actually goes to the core of the issue. To me, understanding another person involves trying to discover why I would say or do exactly what the other said or did. If my answer is “I would do this if I was a bad person” or something like that, then the understanding hasn’t occurred, right? That would still be condemning, not understanding.
I once went to a priest, angry about the actions of a group of people. The priest told me, “It is not to condemn or condone, but understand.” These were really wise words for me to hear, and I really took them to heart.
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graciew
Guest
Can we think of this?
He is giving a full homily to a certain audience present in Santa Martha every time he gives Mass.
There is the readings of the day,the Gospel, and people there are watching him and listening.
He gives one homily daily,usually you will find multiple connections and explanations,and more insight when you read them daily . As in fact usually happens when you go to Mass and your priest gives homilies…
Not that you have to read them daily yes or yes,but know this is going on.
At some point,if I am not mistaken,he allowed them to be public ,but we must bear in mind that it is a Mass and a homily within a Mass.
Now,it must be extremely difficult to have the world as an audience every time you utter a word.
Now when our priest gives a homily,we follow it in the context of the day ,the week,the month,as an ongoing opportunity to learn about Jesus and our Church and grow.
Can you more or less get what I am trying to tell you so far ,Teek?
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OneSheep
Guest
So you will forgive Pope Francis on condition that he does not stir confusion.
I can really relate to the concept of such conditional forgiveness, and I am glad you brought this forth. It is very difficult to forgive a person who is doing something in an ongoing way that continues to make me feel like the situation is out of control. Can you relate to this, that it is hard to forgive in a situation that seems to be out of control? I get in a blaming mode, and have trouble getting out of the mindset.
Can you see that Jesus, too, had to deal with the mindset? The Romans were not letting up in the least on their brutal occupation of the Israel, yet Jesus actually ate with some Romans and called for people to love/forgive their enemies. And who was the #1 enemy? Romans, of course. When people heard “love your enemy” they must have recoiled in a big way.
Can you see, Edward, that holding something against him is not going to help get the situation in control? What is something positive you can do that would address the most difficult problems you are seeing?
Are you concerned that confusion is divisive?
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OneSheep
Guest
I have the same question, Usagi. Hopefully Luigi will explain how the stated positions are divisive.
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