How to get a Church to turn from the Gospel in several easy steps:

[Cat]

I mourn for the ELCA. I work with many ELCA Lutherans on a local choral union committee, and it is tragic to see how many of the elderly women–salt of the earth when it comes to good works and decent living–speak up in favor of abortion and homosexual marriage.

Here’s what I think could happen in the Catholic Church:

More and more Catholics, mainly laypeople, but also priests and religious, will adopt the same beliefs–that homosexual marriage and also abortion (only under certain circumstances, of course ) are acceptable and even good.

I think that Holy Mother Church will continue to preach the truth about these issue, but all the people who believe differently will eventually split away from the True Catholic Church and will form a “New Catholic Church.” Tragically, there are enough priests who would be pleased to say Mass for these “New Catholics.”

It might start out as a trickle, but it will become a torrent of Catholics flooding into the New Catholic Church, mainly because the media and Hollywood will glom onto this and proclaim, “Finally! The Church really does love people!” or some such drivel. And this will provide tons of free publicity for the New Catholic Church, and more and more people will flock to it, including many big “stars” and celebs. It will become the hottest thing since Scientology. Every talk show on every television channel, and all the celeb magazines and websites will be talking about the New Catholic Church.

Right now, a lot of homosexuals and homosexual supporters (especially many artists/musicians/actors, etc.) who were raised Catholic are sojourning in the Anglican/Episcopal Church because it is very similar in Mass to the Catholic Church, but it accepts and celebrates homosexual marriage (“inclusivity” is the “code word” that these denoms use). When the New Catholic Church starts up and gets going, many of these homosexual and homosexual supporter refugees will come back to “Catholicism” and rejoice that they can finally “come home” again–lots of emotional stories on secular media, which will attract even MORE people!

Many Protestants will also get interested in the New Catholic Church, which will not only be “inclusive,” but will also offer Masses that include modern, lively popular-style music. The New Catholic Church will have the money to do the best music possible because of the interest of Hollywood and the “stars.”

No more skimping on crummy inadequate sound systems–the New Catholic Church buildings will have the best that Broadway sound people can set up. This means that OLD people will come to the New Catholic Church Masses, because they can HEAR what’s going on.

And many old people will be joyously re-united in the New Catholic Church with their adult children who are gay or cohabiting or divorced/remarried–oh, my these divorced couples who were unable to get annulments will FLOOD into the New Catholic Church, where they will be encouraged to receive Communion! And this will make even more touching stories for the secular media.

And of course, women will be ordained as priests in the New Catholic Church. Even more PR.

People will make a lot of money in the New Catholic Church. It will be a goldmine for opportunists.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned a stat of 54% of Catholics who support gay marriage. I believe that. What this means is that if all of these people depart the True Catholic Church for the New Catholic Church, 54% of the offering money will be gone from the parish treasury–this is a major hit, and will hurt the True Catholic Church. Do not think otherwise–losing 54% of the offerings WILL HURT a lot–a lot of programs will be cut to lower expenses. That will make the True Catholic Church parishes seem even more lackluster and “dull”, which will result in many of the remaining members departing in search of a church with more to offer (they will cite the needs of their children for “youth programs.”). I predict that many of these Catholics will end up in the Evangelical Protestant churches which are still teaching that homosexual marriage and abortion are evil.

I realize that this is a very somber scenario, but I think it’s very likely to happen, probably sooner than we think. What we all need to do is hunker down, study, be wise, and pray that we will be able to discern when this evil thing starts happening to the True Catholic Church. We need to stay with the True Catholic Church, even if the music is not exciting, and there is little money for extras.

And I think we need to stop complaining about our parishes and sighing for the past and dreaming of “the Perfect Mass.” Instead, we need to link arms and be strong TOGETHER and not fight with each other. Our strength is in the Lord and in unity, not factions.

 

[JustaServant]

No need to duck pieces of the falling sky Cat.
Liberalism always produces the exact opposite of its stated intent.
Liberal churches fail for obvious reasons.
For most people, if devotion and obedience is optional, I’ll stay home Sunday and watch football.
Look at liberal Protestantism in the US and world-wide, its dying.
Why copy a dying model?
You also have to remember, what is a hot button issue in one generation can be reversed in the next. The whole same-sex marriage issue is going to backfire, sit back and watch it happen. History has shown that, time and time again.

 

[benjohnson]

No need to duck pieces of the falling sky Cat.
Liberalism always produces the exact opposite of its stated intent.

JustaServant and Cat: I think you’re both right in a way. Cat is correct in that there will be some sort of cleaning house or split if current trends continue, and you’re correct in that the split will eventually die off.

The trouble is that it may take our sons and daughters with that split - Cat is right in that the secular world would be at it’s most persuasive.

Even here on good CAF we’re being subjugated to this 7-step process of turning away from the Gospel. There’s an ELCA poster here that’s constantly posting photos of female clergy. I’m not sure of the intent, upon reflection of this ‘Bishop’s’ revelation on his conniving scheme, it fits in with Step 1 and 2 of trying to make us ‘comfortable’ with the suggestion.

 

[mrajax]

People are missing the point of Ben Johnson’s post; he is not saying that the Church is GOING to accept homosexual marriage, he is simply saying how people inside the Church are manipulating things in their favor and this has and does happen in our own parishes, don’t deny it. Whilst the Pope and the Church will not dogmatically budge over this issue, many corrupt Bishops and Priests do and they must be stopped.

 

[ffg]

Some of you may know that the ELCA Lutherans have embraced gospel of homosexual politics instead of the cross. This didn’t happen overnight.

Boy does irony flow. So I’m over reading the first article of the year on espn.com by a guy that goes by TMQ. He tends to lay in a lot of politics, religion, sci-fi, into what used to be a mostly football article about the previous weeks games.

source: espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/9559558/letting-johnny-manziel-other-stars-work-own-deals-harm-college-sports

Anyway, so I’m reading through and boom a long tirade on GM and how it is not in conflict with faith and is essentially like inter-racial marriage.

Well they changed their comment section to facebook and I don’t have a fb account so I can’t comment / defend truth, but some of the comments are good defenses.

Then I flip over here and there is this thread. Interesting coincidence.

Essentially in his article tmq is trying to show this turn from the Gospel is not one, rather inclusive in it.

edit: His name is Gregg Easterbrook, if that was of interest.

It’s sad how far things have gone that people think general acceptance / ‘tolerance’ trumps normal / right v wrong.

 

[jmcrae]

and

Particularly:

*Step 1: Mistake nice people for good people. *

and

*Step 6: Blame the Holy Spirit for the “surprising result” of the vote, and make it your Church’s new policy. *

I would add…

Step 1 1/2: Accuse those who are holding to what your church has always taught of “Causing division”. Obviously, if the “nice people” want the change, then those who are against it must be nasty or stupid.

Step 6 1/2: Accuse those who, after the vote, are still opposed of “Obstructing the spirit”.

Awesome!

Revised List:

Step 1: Mistake nice people for good people. (Assume that anyone who bathes regularly, is related to someone who tithes at Church, and who has a tale of woe to tell is a “good person.”)

Step 2: Encourage others to mistake nice people for good people. Accuse those who are holding to what your church has always taught of “Causing division”. Obviously, if the “nice people” want the change, then those who are against it must be nasty or stupid.

Step 3: Interpret the Scriptures by yourself, outside of the Holy Tradition, with a bias to make them say what you want them to say.

Step 4: Create a toxic work environment for people who are trying to hold to the Holy Tradition.

Step 5: After those who were holding to the Holy Tradition have quit in frustration, call a vote, and act surprised when everyone who remains has been intoxicated with the “new reality” that you have been promoting under the radar.

Step 6: Blame the Holy Spirit for the “surprising result” of the vote, and make it your Church’s new policy. Accuse those who are still opposed of “Obstructing the spirit”. Vilify them as “intolerant” - and be sure to over-use the word “pharisaical.”

Step 7: Create an environment where those who want to keep their jobs have to continue to encourage “nice people” of non-traditional persuasion to populate the pews left vacant by the more traditional members, who fled when your new policy was made public. (Act surprised that they left.)

Step 8: Be all surprised on the Judgement Day, when Jesus ties a millstone around your neck and drops you into the sea of fire …

 

[steido01]

Step 8: Be all surprised on the Judgement Day, when Jesus ties a millstone around your neck and drops you into the sea of fire …

You really are a Tarentino fan, aren’t you?

Agreed, by the way. So it looks like we orthodox Christian folk have some work to do. Now entering the mission field!

 

[LoveGod102]

Step 8: Be all surprised on the Judgement Day, when Jesus ties a millstone around your neck and drops you into the sea of fire …

I realize that you may have meant this as a joke, but for any non-Christians (or Christians who haven’t learned the faith well), Jesus will not drop you into a sea of fire (eg: hell); the only ones who go to hell are those who choose hell by intentionally choosing to reject God up to the last moment of one’s life (meaning that they committed at least one grave sin [a sin that kills your soul], and never repented of it/them.) Heaven is being with God for all of eternity, and for those who choose to reject God, this would be torture, so they choose to be away from God totally and completely, (on earth we are always in God’s presence always, but to a much lesser extent than in heaven), this is what hell is, being totally away from God, the One who created you and loves you enough that He died for you.

 

[LoveGod102]

Only God knows where your heart is and that your on a Catholic Forum, who knows we could meet in the same pew. I detect a sincere and loving heart before the Lord, what more can we say than
“Speak Lord, your servant is listening”.

I do as well. Ben, you sound like a very good person, and I’m glad that you seem to want to do something about the crisis your church is going through.

 

[LoveGod102]

It was an ABC poll : abcnews.go.com/Politics/support-gay-marriage-reaches-milestone-half-americans-support/story?id=13159608

The numbers aren’t really the point - given the clear Catholic teaching, any number above 0% indicates that we have a lot of work to do.

But to show what happened to the ELCA is not a ‘one-time’ event, I will point out the ‘Lutheran church never changed’ as well - anyone can read the bible to see that the teaching has remained the same: Sodom is still gone, man and wife are married.

And yet… even this, written in the Bible itself is denied.

This secular world is no longer (and maybe never was) our ally - and it’s a lesson I’ve had to learn over and over.

The secular world is not our ally; for we are called to be in this world but not of it.
John 17:16

 

[steido01]

I do as well. Ben, you sound like a very good person, and I’m glad that you seem to want to do something about the crisis your church is going through.

To be fair to the good ol’ LCMS, we aren’t in any sort of crisis at the moment- but that’s because we remain vigilant against what has happened in other denominations.

 

[LoveGod102]

I mourn for the ELCA. I work with many ELCA Lutherans on a local choral union committee, and it is tragic to see how many of the elderly women–salt of the earth when it comes to good works and decent living–speak up in favor of abortion and homosexual marriage.

Here’s what I think could happen in the Catholic Church:

More and more Catholics, mainly laypeople, but also priests and religious, will adopt the same beliefs–that homosexual marriage and also abortion (only under certain circumstances, of course ) are acceptable and even good.

I think that Holy Mother Church will continue to preach the truth about these issue, but all the people who believe differently will eventually split away from the True Catholic Church and will form a “New Catholic Church.” Tragically, there are enough priests who would be pleased to say Mass for these “New Catholics.”

It might start out as a trickle, but it will become a torrent of Catholics flooding into the New Catholic Church, mainly because the media and Hollywood will glom onto this and proclaim, “Finally! The Church really does love people!” or some such drivel. And this will provide tons of free publicity for the New Catholic Church, and more and more people will flock to it, including many big “stars” and celebs. It will become the hottest thing since Scientology. Every talk show on every television channel, and all the celeb magazines and websites will be talking about the New Catholic Church.

Right now, a lot of homosexuals and homosexual supporters (especially many artists/musicians/actors, etc.) who were raised Catholic are sojourning in the Anglican/Episcopal Church because it is very similar in Mass to the Catholic Church, but it accepts and celebrates homosexual marriage (“inclusivity” is the “code word” that these denoms use). When the New Catholic Church starts up and gets going, many of these homosexual and homosexual supporter refugees will come back to “Catholicism” and rejoice that they can finally “come home” again–lots of emotional stories on secular media, which will attract even MORE people!

Many Protestants will also get interested in the New Catholic Church, which will not only be “inclusive,” but will also offer Masses that include modern, lively popular-style music. The New Catholic Church will have the money to do the best music possible because of the interest of Hollywood and the “stars.”

No more skimping on crummy inadequate sound systems–the New Catholic Church buildings will have the best that Broadway sound people can set up. This means that OLD people will come to the New Catholic Church Masses, because they can HEAR what’s going on.

And many old people will be joyously re-united in the New Catholic Church with their adult children who are gay or cohabiting or divorced/remarried–oh, my these divorced couples who were unable to get annulments will FLOOD into the New Catholic Church, where they will be encouraged to receive Communion! And this will make even more touching stories for the secular media.

And of course, women will be ordained as priests in the New Catholic Church. Even more PR.

People will make a lot of money in the New Catholic Church. It will be a goldmine for opportunists.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned a stat of 54% of Catholics who support gay marriage. I believe that. What this means is that if all of these people depart the True Catholic Church for the New Catholic Church, 54% of the offering money will be gone from the parish treasury–this is a major hit, and will hurt the True Catholic Church. Do not think otherwise–losing 54% of the offerings WILL HURT a lot–a lot of programs will be cut to lower expenses. That will make the True Catholic Church parishes seem even more lackluster and “dull”, which will result in many of the remaining members departing in search of a church with more to offer (they will cite the needs of their children for “youth programs.”). I predict that many of these Catholics will end up in the Evangelical Protestant churches which are still teaching that homosexual marriage and abortion are evil.

I realize that this is a very somber scenario, but I think it’s very likely to happen, probably sooner than we think. What we all need to do is hunker down, study, be wise, and pray that we will be able to discern when this evil thing starts happening to the True Catholic Church. We need to stay with the True Catholic Church, even if the music is not exciting, and there is little money for extras.

And I think we need to stop complaining about our parishes and sighing for the past and dreaming of “the Perfect Mass.” Instead, we need to link arms and be strong TOGETHER and not fight with each other. Our strength is in the Lord and in unity, not factions.

Agreed. We need to pray that the true Church will stay together, that people will not leave God’s Church, for their own sake.

Mom,
Please pray for us. Please ask Jesus to hold His Church together. Please ask Him to lead others home to His Church. Mary, Mother, lead us, all humans home to Jesus, by His power.

Jesus,
Please hold Your Church together. You, who made the world, surely you can hold Your Church together, Lord, my God. Lead us all home to heaven. Intercede for us with Our Father, Lord.
Amen.

 

[1AugustSon7]

Some of you may know that the ELCA Lutherans have embraced gospel of homosexual politics instead of the cross. This didn’t happen overnight.

Here how it was done according to one of the leaders of the process - step by step. Bishop Herbert W. Chilstrom (as president of the ELCA) describes his careful manipulation over time to get people ‘used’ to the idea.

startribune.com/opinion/218173392.html?page=all&prepage=1&c=y#continue

It sickens me frankly, to see how the same steps that pedophiles use to groom their victims (step by step) was used to groom a church into the accepting homosexual partners as the same as marriage.

…

As someone with once strong ties to the ELCA, If I have one bit of advice it is this : Do not budge one inch. Stand on the solid ground of the Gospel.

And his third step - the fast and loose interpretation of the relevant Scripture texts - is where it should stop in all Protestant churches that profess fidelity to Scripture. And I don’t see the Magisterium endorsing such an interpretation of the Scripture- probably because it is quite obviously just denial, not scholarship.

 

[Peter_J]

I’ve been a tad reluctant to post on this thread. The reason is that, while I agree that liberal protestants (and liberal Catholics or people calling themselves Catholic) are way out in left field on this issue, I also find some of the conservative protestants are a little out there too. (As an example see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_therapy#Ex-gay_ministry .)

As for this post, I really don’t know what to think:

I mourn for the ELCA. I work with many ELCA Lutherans on a local choral union committee, and it is tragic to see how many of the elderly women–salt of the earth when it comes to good works and decent living–speak up in favor of abortion and homosexual marriage.

Here’s what I think could happen in the Catholic Church:

More and more Catholics, mainly laypeople, but also priests and religious, will adopt the same beliefs–that homosexual marriage and also abortion (only under certain circumstances, of course ) are acceptable and even good.

I think that Holy Mother Church will continue to preach the truth about these issue, but all the people who believe differently will eventually split away from the True Catholic Church and will form a “New Catholic Church.” Tragically, there are enough priests who would be pleased to say Mass for these “New Catholics.”

It might start out as a trickle, but it will become a torrent of Catholics flooding into the New Catholic Church, mainly because the media and Hollywood will glom onto this and proclaim, “Finally! The Church really does love people!” or some such drivel. And this will provide tons of free publicity for the New Catholic Church, and more and more people will flock to it, including many big “stars” and celebs. It will become the hottest thing since Scientology. Every talk show on every television channel, and all the celeb magazines and websites will be talking about the New Catholic Church.

Right now, a lot of homosexuals and homosexual supporters (especially many artists/musicians/actors, etc.) who were raised Catholic are sojourning in the Anglican/Episcopal Church because it is very similar in Mass to the Catholic Church, but it accepts and celebrates homosexual marriage (“inclusivity” is the “code word” that these denoms use). When the New Catholic Church starts up and gets going, many of these homosexual and homosexual supporter refugees will come back to “Catholicism” and rejoice that they can finally “come home” again–lots of emotional stories on secular media, which will attract even MORE people!

Many Protestants will also get interested in the New Catholic Church, which will not only be “inclusive,” but will also offer Masses that include modern, lively popular-style music. The New Catholic Church will have the money to do the best music possible because of the interest of Hollywood and the “stars.”

No more skimping on crummy inadequate sound systems–the New Catholic Church buildings will have the best that Broadway sound people can set up. This means that OLD people will come to the New Catholic Church Masses, because they can HEAR what’s going on.

And many old people will be joyously re-united in the New Catholic Church with their adult children who are gay or cohabiting or divorced/remarried–oh, my these divorced couples who were unable to get annulments will FLOOD into the New Catholic Church, where they will be encouraged to receive Communion! And this will make even more touching stories for the secular media.

And of course, women will be ordained as priests in the New Catholic Church. Even more PR.

People will make a lot of money in the New Catholic Church. It will be a goldmine for opportunists.

Someone earlier in this thread mentioned a stat of 54% of Catholics who support gay marriage. I believe that. What this means is that if all of these people depart the True Catholic Church for the New Catholic Church, 54% of the offering money will be gone from the parish treasury–this is a major hit, and will hurt the True Catholic Church. Do not think otherwise–losing 54% of the offerings WILL HURT a lot–a lot of programs will be cut to lower expenses. That will make the True Catholic Church parishes seem even more lackluster and “dull”, which will result in many of the remaining members departing in search of a church with more to offer (they will cite the needs of their children for “youth programs.”). I predict that many of these Catholics will end up in the Evangelical Protestant churches which are still teaching that homosexual marriage and abortion are evil.

I realize that this is a very somber scenario, but I think it’s very likely to happen, probably sooner than we think. What we all need to do is hunker down, study, be wise, and pray that we will be able to discern when this evil thing starts happening to the True Catholic Church. We need to stay with the True Catholic Church, even if the music is not exciting, and there is little money for extras.

And I think we need to stop complaining about our parishes and sighing for the past and dreaming of “the Perfect Mass.” Instead, we need to link arms and be strong TOGETHER and not fight with each other. Our strength is in the Lord and in unity, not factions.

 

[GaryTaylor]

the Attorney General of the United States stated “while sexual orientation carries no visible badge, a growing scientific consensus accepts that sexual orientation is a characteristic that is immutable”.

“Richard A. Posner, Sex and Reason 101” played an important role.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals_for_the_Seventh_Circuit

“immutability”

bostonreview.net/blog/sexual-orientation-immutability-and-law

“Suspect” The principles and practices of progressives/Church?

 

[concretecamper]

steido01:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveGod102

I do as well. Ben, you sound like a very good person, and I’m glad that you seem to want to do something about the crisis your church is going through.

To be fair to the good ol’ LCMS, we aren’t in any sort of crisis at the moment- but that’s because we remain vigilant against what has happened in other denominations.

does the LCMS support contraception? If they do, I would say the crisis is over and the truth lost out.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

 

[benjohnson]

I’ve been a tad reluctant to post on this thread. The reason is that, while I agree that liberal protestants (and liberal Catholics or people calling themselves Catholic) are way out in left field on this issue, I also find some of the conservative protestants are a little out there too.

I understand the notion! We can’t just wall ourselves up in cloak of impenetrable rigorousness - we need to welcome the sinner, proclaim the gospel, and repent alongside our fellow creatures.

The LCMS is very welcoming to sinners! And I know the Catholic church is too.

 

[benjohnson]

does the LCMS support contraception? If they do, I would say the crisis is over and the truth lost out.

My intention on starting the thread was as a warning on how a few bad actors can use our good intentions to pry us away from the Gospel.

However… We do teach that barrier methods are acceptable in marriage for family planning reasons, with periodic abstinence being the most acceptable. The ‘pill’, other chemicals, and methods that hurt children in the womb are not acceptable.

So we’re not at Catholic standards, but we’re not entirely insane either.

 

[Peter_J]

I understand the notion! We can’t just wall ourselves up in cloak of impenetrable rigorousness - we need to welcome the sinner, proclaim the gospel, and repent alongside our fellow creatures.

I think there can be a vicious cycle … the more liberals see conservatives going to extremes, the more the liberals feel justified in going to their own extremes, and vice versa.

 

[steido01]

does the LCMS support contraception? If they do, I would say the crisis is over and the truth lost out.

Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

The LCMS is 100% against abortion (and therefore the use of any contraceptives that may function -even unintentionally- as abortifacients). The President of the LCMS, Matthew Harrison, actually represented Christian groups in opposition to the HHS Mandate (which would have required Christian groups to fund contraception) on Capitol Hill. Take a listen to his statements; we very clearly stand with our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters when it comes to the sanctity of life, and that will never change: m.youtube.com/watch?v=blFVL68s4-Y&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DblFVL68s4-Y

When it comes the actual use of contraceptives, the Synod permits (but does not encourage) non-abortifacient contraceptives for married couples, with the understanding that therapeutic uses of birth control may, in exceptional circumstances, be necessary for the treatment of disease. In general practice, this way of thinking amounts to Natural Family Planning being taught as the preferred method to couples in pre-marriage counseling.