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ryanoneil
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By your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." (Mt 12:37)
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ryanoneil
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Try to skip past the question without answering it if you wish, but my question still stands. Eaglesworth said grace and works cannot be mixed and said that grace is unmerited favor. Are these WORKS considered GRACE?
For we are his handiwork, created in Christ Jesus for the good works that God has prepared in advance, that we should live in them. (Eph 2:10)
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ryanoneil
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You have yet to answer my other question moondweller.
Is the “law of Christ” (Gal 6:2) in a paradigm of grace?
Is the “law of Christ” (Gal 6:2) in a paradigm of grace?
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eaglesmark
Guest
Romans 11:6 (New International Version)
And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
King James Bible
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
-see if we will mix Grace and work, its not grace anymore.
What is the use of good works?
in eph 2:10, it is clarified in the bible
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
-“in Christ Jesus”. Therefore those who say are a follower of Jesus, believes Jesus, God is expecting good works from them. Same as a sheep, you would expect a wool. You would expect a dog to bark. The same with being a true believer in Christ, it is the nature of a Christian to do good works, not the opposite.
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moondweller
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No, Ryan, those works are NOT considered “grace.” THEY’RE WORKS done by those who “have been saved by grace (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) through faith” (vss 8-9). Eaglesworth is right. like water and oil, grace and works do not mix:Rom 11:6 "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."Works receive a reward (payment) that is due accordingly. And the believer (having been saved by grace through faith) will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and receive reward (or not) for the works he’s done in the body (1 Cor. 3:10-15). But his salvation was “gifted” upon faith in Jesus Christ: “…not as a result of works.”
The “law of Christ” is operative during this dispensation of grace, yes. It’s the principle under which those who “have been saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” are to walk; according to the commandment Christ gave to us:John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.”
John 13:34 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another.”
1 John 3:23 "This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us."It’s those who have “believed” and “have been saved by grace through faith…not as a result of works” that are to love one another (within the body of Christ). “Bear one another’s burdens,” as Paul exhorted the believers in the region of Galatia, is a way of loving the brethren,“and thereby fulfill the law of Christ.” The law of Christ is for the brethren to love one another, not to get saved by.
That no man is saved by the works of law - any law - is made very evident in the Scriptures!! Not even the law of Christ:Gal. 3:21-22 "For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law (no definite article, i.e., the principle of law). But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."That “promise” is Divine righteousness reckoned and imputed to the believer at the time of faith in Christ (not ritual baptism).Rom 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,"According to the Scriptures, there is no salvation on the basis of law - ANY LAW (merit). Men are saved on principle of “grace” alone (unmerited, unrecompensed, undeserved favor) “through faith…a GIFT of God, not as a result of works.”
To most, however, such a principle (pure grace) is repugnant. They hate grace and therefore refuse to believe it. They instead foolishly demand that God save them according to merit.Rom 3:21 “But now apart from law (no definite article, i.e., apart from the principle of law) {the} righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law (definite article) and the Prophets, even {the} righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all sinned (in Adam) and (continually) fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;”
Rom 3:27-28 “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law” (no definite article, i.e., the principle of law).The theological and psychological effort of man to blend grace and merit (works) has been man’s ever feeble attempt, in some way, even by trickery, to escape that total indebtedness he has to God, which pure, unadulterated divine grace exposes and expresses. Grace is never based on merit, nor can it be, not without ceasing to be grace.
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bluelake
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What does OP stand for?
Rev. 21:6-8,27 please read this.
Is your name written in the Book of Life?
You may also enjoy reading Ps.139:13-18
This is also a wonderful passage tp pass unto the abortion propotents.
I realize Catholics read the Catechism. Do you read the Bible along
with the Catechism? The Bible was written first.
God bless,
bluelake
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bluelake
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bluelake
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By works and trickery? O dear, shall we pray for one another.
Great post!
bluelake
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bona_fides_1
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“OP” means original post or original poster. I had asked what the original person stating this discussion wanted to talk about since he opened the dialog with concepts that were related to pre-destiny,
Do Catholic read the bible along with the Catechism or me personally?Rev. 21:6-8,27 please read this.
Is your name written in the Book of Life?
You may also enjoy reading Ps.139:13-18
This is also a wonderful passage tp pass unto the abortion propotents.
I realize Catholics read the Catechism. Do you read the Bible along
with the Catechism? The Bible was written first.
God bless,
bluelake
If the prior, LOL, Catholics have been reading the bible continuously from the first day we produced the first version of it in 382AD - about 1,618 years continuously. That’s over 1,118 years sooner than any of the Protestant denominations even existed. I am surprised you would ask this question. Or is it the latter? Are you coming into this discussion late to have not seen my many scripture references and do you realize that the Catholic catechism heavily references scripture more so than any other Protestant confession or teaching on the planet?
Further the bible was written for and by Catholics. All the apostles and the early church fathers and bishops were Catholic - the very same people who 1st wrote, assembled the bible, canonized it and published it for The Church. Catholics are the original Christians. Do you know church history?
Now, to answer your question - “yes, of course”. Why do you ask?
What would you like to know or discuss about Revelation and Psalms?
BF
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moondweller
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It’s certainly always good to pray for one another.By works and trickery? O dear, shall we pray for one another.
Great post!
bluelake
The “trickery” is turning grace into works, merit into grace. An example being the erroneous idea that God, supposedly, by His “grace,” gives men works to perform in order to acquire merit toward their future salvation. The trickery is then calling this “salvation by grace.”
But grace, by definition, must be void of any and all merit (works), else it ceases to be grace at all. Men are saved “by (God’s) grace” (un-meritoriously) because the work by which God saves men “through faith” was accomplished, in full, by Another - the Man Christ Jesus. The work only He could accomplish (and did, “once for all”) and was sent into this world to do (to the glory of God). As the Scriptures state:“God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”“Faith” is the act of men believing in what Christ accomplished, once for all, on the cross on their behalf; "…so that He (God) would be just and the Justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" (Rom. 3:26b).
To be saved through the Son alone, is to be “saved by grace” alone, because all the required work to be done for our salvation was done and completed 2000 years ago by Him, alone, and Divinely revealed by the Apostles to us (preserved in the Epistles) for us to BELIEVE unto eternal salvation (eternal life).
And for this reason Paul could write to those who believed in Rome:Rom 5:1-2 “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our access by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.”
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CMatt25
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Well you were led wrong. Because no I fully have the ability to have understood what was meant. How else can you recognize what was meant when he said the deceased had already arrived in heaven and was welcomed by all who had preceded. 
So I guess you will have to leave it to your judgment that the priest misspoke.
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CMatt25
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bona fides;6570589 What particular area of Lumen Gentium are you referring to? Here are the major areas of this document: said:
- The People of God. Subsection 14. The sentence "Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.
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I_Fortuna
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Have you?! I see you have a computer or at least access to one. Get thee to a GOOD bible study.
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bona_fides_1
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I imagine there are plenty of people who believe that they are Catholic but who have personalized the teaching to cheery pick only the teaching they want to adhere to. These are those who may be like the holiday-only Catholics or those who do not go to mass at all or who go to mass and receive communion but have been living a life of grave sin (remarried with no anullment, fornication etc.) or who have automatically excommunicated themselves by having an abortion or lending moral support to a person to get an abortion. These that are in grave sin are essentially “no longer” in communion with the Catholic church and are Catholic by name only. This might be an example depending on culpability of sin.
You call yourself Catholic but you seem to have a lot of issues with the Catholic Church. Are you a practising catholic or not?
Again you have reverted back to your usual confusion of mistaking teaching for particular judging of individual souls. I really don’t have any more time to go around and around with you on this since I think you lack the facilities to grasp what I and others have tried to teach you. So this is probably my last post to you on this.
If you rally are Catholic If I were you I’d go talk to a priest since you seem to have some very strange ideas about the Catholic Church and what she teaches.
Audios,
BF
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bona_fides_1
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MD, you keep re-framing the same banal line about “grace not works” and presenting it in ever new variations as if trying to teach that Catholic believe that we are saved by works. Can you bump the phonograph stylus since the tune is stuck in the same track and its getting to be an old strawman. Catholics do not believe in salvation by personal works but rather by grace in the presence of supernatural faith, charity and hope. Supernatural works must be in evidence or else there is no grace at work and what one has is a dead human-faith that will not save anyone. If you have no works you can not stay in christ and will be cut off.
This teaching of yours however is a complete lie since grace springs forth from the merit of Christ!
MD: But grace, by definition, must be void of any and all merit (works), else it ceases to be grace at all. WRONG
Grace is ALWAYS paired with supernatural works since the work of God is to believe in Him. If you don’t have supernatural works (not that you need see them yourself) you don’t have a real living faith but rather a mere carnal human faith not much different than: believing that the sun will come up in the morning ; or else that that one will surely get hungry if you do not eat; or else if you toss a coin 5 times out of 10 one might statistically win a coin toss by randomly calling heads or tails.
One can not participate in Christ’s grace unless one becomes partakers in Christ’s passion and His divine grace. To do that one must repent and be baptised (by water, by desire or by blood) and then not disgrace oneself through grave sin and also cooperate with grace. We must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Sorry if that sounds like work to you but that’s the exact words of St. Paul.
Eucharist is one of the best ways to “remain in Christ” since one can not partake of Eucharist and share in his cup of suffering unless one is worthy of Him (obedient and free of sin) and because it nourishes and strengthens the soul and anneals one against the appetite for sin (concupiscence). One who is outside of the Catholic sacraments (e.g. not Catholic) will have a very difficult time staying in original baptismal grace. Teaching false doctrine and leading others away from the true Catholic faith is grave matter.
Baptism is one of the first symbols of faith. But we are to advance from the “milk” to the “meat” as one matures in the faith. Merit comes as a fruit of grace and builds up a spiritual treasury that promotes one to their highest and best crown in heaven. Not all in heaven are of the same spiritual rank. Each crown is unique.
BF
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bona_fides_1
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CMatt25
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By your definition I doubt. But adios. Thanks for judging my facilities. Peace.
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CMatt25
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BF, just to be clear. I am not holiday only or not at all. I’ve never remarried without an annulment. Have never had an abortion. Nor to my knowledge have I personally known anyone who has, to have been able to lend loving, merciful moral support to, even had I wanted. But your “etc” is roomy I just imagine. Hense why I said based on your definition I doubt. God bless.
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moondweller
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Again you’re expressing salvation by works (personal merit).
Did you understand my point about “trickery?”
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QuickCat
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Quite true! God sends no one to hell, they send themselves by rejecting the simple plan of salvation. God the Father showed the ultimate mercy to the lost by sending His Son, The Lord Jesus Christ, to the cross to pay the FULL penalty for our sins. [Col. 2:13]. We live in the dispensation of the grace of God [Eph. 3:2] which was revealed to Paul for us. The only requirement for getting to heaven in this dispensation is “Believe on the LORD Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.” Once we believe the gospel of our salvation we are sealed by the Holy Spirit UNTIL the redemption of our body." [Eph. 1:13]. Unfortunately, the church has been so mixed and confused with Israel’s kingdom that folks hardly know what to believe unless they “rightly divide the Word of Truth.” [2 Tim 2:15].
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